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Enlightenment vs Occult
12-25-2016, 08:10 AM (This post was last modified: 12-25-2016 08:15 AM by Absinthe.)
Post: #11
(12-24-2016 10:40 PM)JintheNinja Wrote:  There is a good and bad point to it. The bad point is the language. So a curandero MIGHT refer to his work as a magia Blanca, or instead say el don (the healing gift) comes from God. Both of these things as cosmologically acceptable, but they aren't the role of the magician. So if we are to use a good example of a Mayan trickster such as Ajitz, he clearly is a subversive character. A magician. Not a healer persay. And travsha has never physically seen a shaman heal someone. He has seen Qero medicine people heal people, curanderos heal people. But not a shaman.
And in traditional cultures, they don't conflate magico-religious community based healing and ritual with magical practice. I.e. Sorcery. It's just not the case, in any version, anthropological or oral tradition. There is a clear delineation between the two people. And while some of course have overlapping practices, the practices are not identical.
A sorcerer works on want/power, a healer works to heal/remedy. And magico-religious ritual is a conceit of all religions. Regardless of western or non western, church based or community based. The distinction isn't even up for discussion. There are nuns who heal people miraculously both living and in history. They aren't either shamans or magicians. So again the good points get lost in the co option and re narrativasation of history. Of indigenous peoples as fantasy props and noble savages. This is highly problematic.

Exactly. My dad was healed my grandma (his mom) of the evil eye many times when we was younger. She wasn't a curandera, hechicera or bruja. As my dad put it, "She just knew how to pray".
And yes, some nuns came in and prayed for my uncle when he was sick. He's better now, but no one's calling them sorceresses.
There's a huge difference between people who pray (and even use herbs or waters to do so) and people who work magic.

(12-25-2016 03:40 AM)travsha Wrote:  
(12-24-2016 10:40 PM)JintheNinja Wrote:  There is a good and bad point to it. The bad point is the language. So a curandero MIGHT refer to his work as a magia Blanca, or instead say el don (the healing gift) comes from God. Both of these things as cosmologically acceptable, but they aren't the role of the magician. So if we are to use a good example of a Mayan trickster such as Ajitz, he clearly is a subversive character. A magician. Not a healer persay. And travsha has never physically seen a shaman heal someone. He has seen Qero medicine people heal people, curanderos heal people. But not a shaman.
How would you know what I have or havent seen? You sure do think highly of yourself to assume you know everything about complete strangers.....

I have seen many different types of healers work on people and some of them were shamans so your claims are of course incorrect and weird.

I know many magicians who do healing work, and I think by definition anyone doing any kind of magic at all can be a magician, not only people doing specific types of magic. Seen people do healing work by summoning demons from Goetia as well - they are certainly magicians but still doing healing. And I have seen curanderos make love potions or business luck potions - certainly magic.

Your narrowminded views seem to disregard reality.

Quote:And in traditional cultures, they don't conflate magico-religious community based healing and ritual with magical practice. I.e. Sorcery. It's just not the case, in any version, anthropological or oral tradition. There is a clear delineation between the two people. And while some of course have overlapping practices, the practices are not identical.
A sorcerer works on want/power, a healer works to heal/remedy. And magico-religious ritual is a conceit of all religions. Regardless of western or non western, church based or community based. The distinction isn't even up for discussion. There are nuns who heal people miraculously both living and in history. They aren't either shamans or magicians. So again the good points get lost in the co option and re narrativasation of history. Of indigenous peoples as fantasy props and noble savages. This is highly problematic.
There is a lot more cross-over then you pretend. Many people doing healing also practice other magic, and if you are using magic to heal it is still magic.

Magician is a very vague term. Basically means someone doing magic. There can be hundreds of different types of magicians in that category I would assume. Shaman is a very specific type of healer - most healers and most magicians are not shamans, but I would say all shamans are healers and most if not all could probably be considered magicians (though shaman might be a more specific and accurate name). Nuns of course are not shamans - many healers are not shamans, as shamans are a very specific type of healer.

You can keep making up your own definitions for everything, but I am going to stick to the commonly used and accepted definitions because I dont need to change words.

You're the one messing up dude. Stop trying to define people from other cultures by YOUR definitions. You ain't shit in the face of ancestral knowledge, tradition and understanding.
And I say this as someone who is mixed, raised Mexican, and has seen the things Jinn is talking about first hand or from the stories of my family (which are just as legit, because they pass down ancestral knowledge).
These things are my everyday life, not some mystical brown magick you seem to think it is. Just because you were raised in a secularized, white christian family doesn't make what we do as Mixed/POC strange or exotic. It's honestly fucking disturbing the way you talk.

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12-25-2016, 08:25 AM
Post: #12
[quote='Absinthe' pid='338310' dateline='1482617450']
Exactly. My dad was healed my grandma (his mom) of the evil eye many times when we was younger. She wasn't a curandera, hechicera or bruja. As my dad put it, "She just knew how to pray".
And yes, some nuns came in and prayed for my uncle when he was sick. He's better now, but no one's calling them sorceresses.
There's a huge difference between people who pray (and even use herbs or waters to do so) and people who work magic.
[/quote]
A lot of curanderos do more then just pray. Curanderos I work with for example heal the sick by channeling spirits and singing to them, by making offerings, by blowing smoke on the sick or sucking illness out of their bodies.... And at the same time also put spells in potions to attract love, luck or business.

How is that different then magic? Maybe you can share your definition of magic since it must be different then mine?

[quote][quote='travsha' pid='338250' dateline='1482601212']
You're the one messing up dude. Stop trying to define people from other cultures by YOUR definitions. You ain't shit in the face of ancestral knowledge, tradition and understanding.
And I say this as someone who is mixed, raised Mexican, and has seen the things Jinn is talking about first hand or from the stories of my family (which are just as legit, because they pass down ancestral knowledge).
These things are my everyday life, not some mystical brown magick you seem to think it is. Just because you were raised in a secularized, white christian family doesn't make what we do as Mixed/POC strange or exotic. It's honestly fucking disturbing the way you talk.
[/quote]
I am not defining anyones culture - I am sharing observations. Not things I read - things I have seen personally. I wasnt raised in a Christian family and my heritage is mixed. I dont think anything is strange or exotic and really have no clue what you are talking about.

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12-25-2016, 08:51 AM
Post: #13
to the Op: sorry for further derailing but i have to ask.
to trashva, jin and absinthe:
im that white dude brought up in orthodox christianity, moved to sufism and now looking into magic. i get so confused by your arguments over words. i get it so far that i hate being called a moslima because im a woman moslem. the word is nonsense. but other then that id love some clear definitions of the words:
magician
wizard
shaman
necromancer
and a new one just popped up:
a nun who heals tru prayer, why isnt that magic????

i really lost all understanding.

for me everything outside of going to the doctor, working to get money etc is magic. seems im wrong?


NOW BACK TO THE OP:

to me enlightenment has nothing to do with how you live your life. it seems to be a mental state of sorts. so you can be fucked up and still be enlightened. in the end its just a title and has no use other then been there done that.
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12-25-2016, 09:07 AM
Post: #14
(12-25-2016 08:51 AM)niburulou Wrote:  to the Op: sorry for further derailing but i have to ask.
to trashva, jin and absinthe:
im that white dude brought up in orthodox christianity, moved to sufism and now looking into magic. i get so confused by your arguments over words. i get it so far that i hate being called a moslima because im a woman moslem. the word is nonsense. but other then that id love some clear definitions of the words:
magician
wizard
shaman
necromancer
and a new one just popped up:
a nun who heals tru prayer, why isnt that magic????

i really lost all understanding.

for me everything outside of going to the doctor, working to get money etc is magic. seems im wrong?
Some people define magic slightly differently.... A lot of people like Corwleys definition of "the Science and Art of causing Change to occur in conformity with Will".... I think it is a decent definition, though I think most people think of magic as something that seems supernatural - involving spirits or energy or miracles ect....

Prayer that works seems like magic to me too. I think a lot of people would consider that magic, and in many ways most types of magic that work with spirits are kinda like advanced and fancier versions of prayer....

I would say that anyone practicing any type of magic could probably be a magician. Wizards I dont hear people identify as very often, and I dont really know how that is different then magician accept it sounds more story bookish.... Necromancer would be someone doing magic involving the dead I guess.

Shaman is traditionally defined as someone who uses trance states to channel spirits and travel spirit realms for the purposes of healing others - sometimes they have other roles as well.... Some healers that seem shamanic-ish are generally not technically shamanic if they dont use trance states to work with spirits or include healing as part of their practice (so for example - I study with a tribe called the Q'ero who are not technically shamanic because they dont use trance states, but to a lot of people what they do would seem similar to shamanism even though it isnt technically shamanism)

I wont be surprised if these guys tell you something different. I also wont say I know much about the word wizard or necromancer.... But as for the word shaman - I use the current accepted definition of the word because people understand it well when talking about the general practice. To me it is kinda like the word doctor - where you can have proctologist, urologist, neurologist ect.... All kinds of specific doctors. Shaman as it is currently used is a vague umbrella type term under which many unique types of healers could fit - so not all shamans are the same, and when talking abut individuals there are often more specific cultural names that are more accurate to describe them (just like doctors have more accurate specific names to describe what kind of doctor they are).

Of course there is also the issue that the word shaman is becoming more popular and some people just use it to mean anything they want.... Which I dont agree with. I think words have specific meanings and definitions and we can communicate most accurately by sticking to those. So I stick to the common definitions.

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12-25-2016, 09:18 AM
Post: #15
thanks trashva for your explanations. i hope jin and absinthe give theirs too. i dont mind them being different im just trying to make sense of what im doing and whats going on in my life. words help a lot with that and also hopefully will give me direction on where to further my progress.
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12-25-2016, 12:13 PM
Post: #16
(12-25-2016 08:51 AM)niburulou Wrote:  to the Op: sorry for further derailing but i have to ask.
to trashva, jin and absinthe:
im that white dude brought up in orthodox christianity, moved to sufism and now looking into magic. i get so confused by your arguments over words. i get it so far that i hate being called a moslima because im a woman moslem. the word is nonsense. but other then that id love some clear definitions of the words:
magician
wizard
shaman
necromancer
and a new one just popped up:
a nun who heals tru prayer, why isnt that magic????

i really lost all understanding.

for me everything outside of going to the doctor, working to get money etc is magic. seems im wrong?


NOW BACK TO THE OP:

to me enlightenment has nothing to do with how you live your life. it seems to be a mental state of sorts. so you can be fucked up and still be enlightened. in the end its just a title and has no use other then been there done that.

Yes, I'd ask the same sort of thing, awesome! Great questions! I always wonder too!
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12-25-2016, 06:08 PM (This post was last modified: 12-25-2016 06:09 PM by Deodat Lawson.)
Post: #17
What if there is no such thing as magic or miracle and all the paranormal/magical phenomemon has occult(Just like how Agrippa used this word) scientific laws/explanations that modern science isn't capable of comprehending ergo none of you actually know or even understand what magic really is, the mechanism behind prayers or any of that BS but what all of you are capable of is having a dick measuring competition.

My goodness. I have amazing potential to be a fabulous armchair theorist, don't I?
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12-25-2016, 08:14 PM
Post: #18
(12-25-2016 06:08 PM)josh joe Wrote:  What if there is no such thing as magic or miracle and all the paranormal/magical phenomemon has occult(Just like how Agrippa used this word) scientific laws/explanations that modern science isn't capable of comprehending ergo none of you actually know or even understand what magic really is, the mechanism behind prayers or any of that BS but what all of you are capable of is having a dick measuring competition.

My goodness. I have amazing potential to be a fabulous armchair theorist, don't I?

Good points, but I think you're approaching it in the wrong direction.

There is "magic" because we say there is, and what we say "magic" is, is what it can be and what we are referring to. Magic is simply a means to accomplish things. Simply determine what you wish accomplished, then work backwards from there on the many ways in which what you desire can be achieved.

What form of "magic" includes "not even a thought or a process" towards the thing? That would be something which one is completely ignorant of and would likely be called an "accident". So it seems at the very least, "magic" as it is generally understood, at least includes some sort of aim or goal or procedure in the way most people are using the world, except if they did understand the nature of what they might call "accident" the whole world of "magic" might be opened to them.
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