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Heaven and Hell
09-09-2014, 08:43 AM
Post: #1
Hello guys! I'm thinking about a thing since i began studying the occult, and i can't seem to find a proper answer. What do you guys think of Heaven and Hell? I mean, if i try to do some magic (any type) will i go directly to Hell? But then i think about something, in Goetia you can summon angels, which is isn't supposed to be a very bad thing, so Hell wouldn't apply to this situation. I don't know. Can you share you opinion with me?
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09-09-2014, 08:47 AM
Post: #2
Christianity got its roots from Zoroastrianism religion.. to them heaven and hell is a state of being, not a place you go to after death,, christians adopted that but made it places for when after you die.. Its a great form to use when trying to scare people into believing in a religion...
take what you want from that,
Hehe

In order to Hear, we must Listen; In order to See, we must Look; and in order to Understand we must Want To.
Nature is the teacher of art..
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09-09-2014, 08:54 AM
Post: #3
Thanks for your answer! That actually makes sense. When i read history books, normally the church spreads lies and only wants money, so i guess to prevent someone to do something the church doesn't want, they would lie about Heaven and Hell too.
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09-09-2014, 09:08 AM
Post: #4
Sometimes it is best to draw a distinction between religion and magic. Religion is based on faith and in its institutional form it is used to ensure certain social norms are upheld; those who abide by those standards are spiritually rewarded and those who don’t are punished. In short, it is a construct to maintain a status quo and keep a population rulable and manageable. Magic is a spiritual art and science and while it lies at the root of many religious systems, it does not have to be based on faith nor does it function in terms of social order.

Let’s be clear on two points: 1. The bible forbids magic (or rather, vernacular interpretations of the bible do), and 2. the bible is the single greatest account of magicians and magical acts. It is up to you as to how you wish to reconcile this contradiction.

Also, the Goetia does not deal with Angels.

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09-09-2014, 09:20 AM
Post: #5
(09-09-2014 09:08 AM)astrohermetic Wrote:  Sometimes it is best to draw a distinction between religion and magic. Religion is based on faith and in its institutional form it is used to ensure certain social norms are upheld; those who abide by those standards are spiritually rewarded and those who don’t are punished. In short, it is a construct to maintain a status quo and keep a population rulable and manageable. Magic is a spiritual art and science and while it lies at the root of many religious systems, it does not have to be based on faith nor does it function in terms of social order.

Let’s be clear on two points: 1. The bible forbids magic (or rather, vernacular interpretations of the bible do), and 2. the bible is the single greatest account of magicians and magical acts. It is up to you as to how you wish to reconcile this contradiction.

Also, the Goetia does not deal with Angels.

Thanks for your answer astrohermetic! Correct me if im wrong, so you'r saying that basically religion serves to "control" the population, and their acts? I find your answer interesting, specially the quote "The bible is the single greatest account of magicians and magical acts", and i agree with you, it makes pretty sense. Also about Goetia, i think you can evoque other spirits including angels. See this thread http://wizardforums.com/Thread-Evocation...bevocation

But i may be wrong.
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09-09-2014, 09:23 AM
Post: #6
Not all religions seek to control us, there are a few that are ok, judaism, voudou, but Christianity as an entity has been corrupted.
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09-09-2014, 09:28 AM
Post: #7
(09-09-2014 09:23 AM)Mider2009 Wrote:  Not all religions seek to control us, there are a few that are ok, judaism, voudou, but Christianity as an entity has been corrupted.

I searched a bit into each religion you mentioned. Tell me, what do you think is the source of Christianity's corruption?
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09-09-2014, 09:48 AM
Post: #8
The tradition of turning second sons of the nobility into priests comes to mind. A lack of separation between Church and State for a good couple of centuries will do that. Then you get things like plenary indulgences and the Borgias.
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09-09-2014, 09:53 AM
Post: #9
(09-09-2014 09:48 AM)Arcanist Wrote:  The tradition of turning second sons of the nobility into priests comes to mind. A lack of separation between Church and State for a good couple of centuries will do that. Then you get things like plenary indulgences and the Borgias.

Yeah i guess that pretty much answers it. Nobility is clearly not humility, i guess back at the time they didn't think that Huh Yeah and the Borgias are a very good example of that.
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09-09-2014, 10:06 AM (This post was last modified: 09-09-2014 10:26 AM by Leonardo.)
Post: #10
I think I may have been misunderstood. I am not bashing religion by any means, my point is that once a belief system becomes institutionalized it becomes a social construct to maintain order in the population. This means that as a "religion" moves on from a shared cosmological system within a population, to a physical and monetary entity with it's own class of people (i.e. priests, etc.) and political and economic power its priorities shift. At this point, it is for the benefit of the ruling and priestly classes to maintain the current social structure and order of things. Here we see that more "religious" laws are created and older ones reworked in order to ensure the stability of the current social hierarchy. And yes, this happens even in Judaism. Read Leviticus, at the writing of this book there is already an established priestly class and the entire book focuses on moral and legal practices instead of beliefs. Again, I reiterate this is not a "bad" thing... it is necessary in order to maintain structure within society, but as a result many grey or blurry topics which do not adhere to a strict form of morality (i.e. magic) become outlawed.

The Goetia composes a chapter of the 15th C. grimoire known as the Lesser Key of Solomon and is entirely devoted to the evocation and command of the 72 spirits ensnared by King Solomon. The only mention of angels in all the text are in the depictions of the circle and the divine names (pertaining to the sefirot from Yesod to Keter) written around the circle to protect the conjurer from the summoned spirits. Even then only a hand-full of the surviving manuscripts depict the circle, but the text implies that they are to be written as such ("The circle of Salomon is to be made nine feet across, & the divine names are to be written around it, from Eheye to Levanah").

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