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Physical vs. Visible Evocation: Which is Better?
07-28-2012, 02:44 AM
Post: #1
I received a text last night while at the club with some friends from one of my "students" that I teach on Saturdays. The question was about which method of manifestation was better; physical or visible. Some would say it raises a valid point. Not really. Lets define what each is below to get a better picture.


Physical Manifestation

This is what the grimoires of old (The Goetia, Keys of Solomn, 6th & 7th Book of Moses, Grimoire of Armadel, etc) describe, how to bring the spirit to physical appearance. When evoking to physical appearance the spirit is physically in the room with you. Others in the room or in the near vicinity will be able to see it. If someone walks into the room where the evocation is taking place they too will be able to see the spirit.

Evoking a spirit to physical manifestation on our material plane is an extremely arduous task. Our plane is not habitable for them (another reason why demons don't just go around randomly possessing people, but that's a topic for another thread Wink ). In order to get a spirit to manifest on our plane we need to make the ritual space more akin to their own sphere of habitation. We do this by using the energy of the ritual space within the circle. Things like an exorbitant amount of incense smoke, depleting or rising temperatures, etc.

Getting your ritual space to be sufficiently pleasant for the spirit to manifest physically is a daunting task. Many grimoires do not specify exactly how to do this which makes the process that much harder. It's more of a trial & error process unless you can find one of the few modern grimoire titles that offer such instructions. If you are able to get the your ritual space to mimic the spirits home plane and the spirit does manifest you then have to make sure your circle is the proper 9 feet in diameter and the Triangle of Art is another 3 feet away. This is due to some spirits having foul odors or having coarse breath. There are even several spirits who do not come alone when called, but with other spirits in their "spirit armies" such as generals and lieutenants. This would mean the Triangle of Art would have to be wide enough to contain two or more spirits.


Visible Manifestation

This is the method most modern day books on evocation describe and the method that I use. This is the method where the magician utilizes a scrying vessel, which is 9 times out of 10 a dark mirror. The dark mirror is placed within the Triangle of Art and the spirit manifests on the astral plane and the mirror acts as a window to view the spirit. This much is much easier than physical as the spirit can easily manifest on the astral plane. Those with some training in the art of scrying should have no issues utilizing this method once they have perfected their evocation technique.

With this method only those who are present during the evocation will be able to see it. Those who happen to walk in the room during it will only see you doing some weird ritual and talking to a mirror. They were not present during the conjurations, exorcisms and such and therefore have not been placed in the right frame of mind to be able to see the spirit within the mirror. The spirit will not physically be there but can be seen, heard and spoken to through the mirror.



So which method is better? The answer is really neither. Both work equally well so long as your desires and wants/needs are met. The spirit can do its job whether it's physically in the room with you or on the astral plane and communication is via the dark mirror. Some magicians even go as far as saying even if you have not trained yourself in the art of scrying and cannot see the spirit but can sense it's presence you can still achieve results. I cannot say "yea or nay" on this as when I would perform evocations and see no spirit I would consider it a failure and close out the ritual.

The bottom line is no matter which method you practice, physical or visible, so long as your goals are achieved then that is all that matters. Smiling

You sold your soul to me, need I remind you?

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07-28-2012, 09:13 PM (This post was last modified: 07-28-2012 09:13 PM by Vitus Lazarus.)
Post: #2
Am I the only one who could never summon a spirit into physical or visible form?

I really doubt that it is possible.

"Spirits" can cause physical effects, but they are thought-forms, nothing more. They are "your will made manifest", aren't they?

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07-28-2012, 09:36 PM
Post: #3
(07-28-2012 09:13 PM)Vitus Lazarus Wrote:  Am I the only one who could never summon a spirit into physical or visible form?

I really doubt that it is possible.

"Spirits" can cause physical effects, but they are thought-forms, nothing more. They are "your will made manifest", aren't they?

Sorry but your view on spirits is wrong. I hate having to say so as I usually respect the beliefs of others. But belief vs reality, I must step in. Spirits exist outside of ourselves. If humans never walked the earth there would still be spirits. While there are many spirits that are the creation of a magician or group of magicians the vast majority exist outside ourselves.

As for not having success with either form of evocation, which method are you using.

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07-28-2012, 11:07 PM
Post: #4
(07-28-2012 09:36 PM)The God-King Wrote:  Sorry but your view on spirits is wrong. I hate having to say so as I usually respect the beliefs of others. But belief vs reality, I must step in. Spirits exist outside of ourselves. If humans never walked the earth there would still be spirits. While there are many spirits that are the creation of a magician or group of magicians the vast majority exist outside ourselves.

As for not having success with either form of evocation, which method are you using.

I am sorry.

Because it's a good example of "Clash of Paradigms", so it can't be helped.
You're talking about a spirit-model what I don't believe, that's it.

Well it's not so simple... I just never met with "outer spirits".
My belief is, that spirits are:
- servitors
- or psychological "inner forms", our own demons or simple thoughts

So I'm sorry, you're right, this topic is just not for me. Smiling

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07-29-2012, 12:36 AM
Post: #5
(07-28-2012 11:07 PM)Vitus Lazarus Wrote:  I am sorry.

Because it's a good example of "Clash of Paradigms", so it can't be helped.
You're talking about a spirit-model what I don't believe, that's it.

Well it's not so simple... I just never met with "outer spirits".
My belief is, that spirits are:
- servitors
- or psychological "inner forms", our own demons or simple thoughts

So I'm sorry, you're right, this topic is just not for me. Smiling

Is it possible that you don't believe simply because you have not yet experienced a spirit evocation? Study modern methods of evocation such as those of Donald Michael Kraig or E.A. Koetting. Perform the ritual and achieve a manifestation. Then maybe that will sway your mind.

As for spirits being part of our psychology, I do not subscribe to this Jungian theory. Reason being is because if spirits are simply part of our subconscious then why do we even need to evoke them? There are far simpler methods to achieve your goals that also utilize the subconscious such as Shamanism. To be technical, magic itself stems from the subconscious, which is why most people would say to forget the spell after you cast it so your subconscious can work to achieve the goal (this is especially true with sigil magic). So if spirits are not "real", if they are simply part of our subconscious, our psychological make up then evoking them is futile. Why spend the countless hours studying the art, the thousands of dollars purchasing the tools and the several failed attempts all for a goal that a simple sigil working can achieve, as sigil magic too stems from the subconscious. Therefore, the spirits are very real. Again, if humans never walked the earth spirits would still be here.

You sold your soul to me, need I remind you?

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07-29-2012, 01:00 AM
Post: #6
(07-29-2012 12:36 AM)The God-King Wrote:  Is it possible that you don't believe simply because you have not yet experienced a spirit evocation? Study modern methods of evocation such as those of Donald Michael Kraig or E.A. Koetting. Perform the ritual and achieve a manifestation. Then maybe that will sway your mind.

As for spirits being part of our psychology, I do not subscribe to this Jungian theory. Reason being is because if spirits are simply part of our subconscious then why do we even need to evoke them? There are far simpler methods to achieve your goals that also utilize the subconscious such as Shamanism. To be technical, magic itself stems from the subconscious, which is why most people would say to forget the spell after you cast it so your subconscious can work to achieve the goal (this is especially true with sigil magic). So if spirits are not "real", if they are simply part of our subconscious, our psychological make up then evoking them is futile. Why spend the countless hours studying the art, the thousands of dollars purchasing the tools and the several failed attempts all for a goal that a simple sigil working can achieve, as sigil magic too stems from the subconscious. Therefore, the spirits are very real. Again, if humans never walked the earth spirits would still be here.

Interesting.

Yes, I should try to summon a real spirit.
You see, it's the paradox to be a chaote - how can be everything true... or false? Smiling

So the only way to prove to myself that spirits are real is to summon one of them?

Can you recommend a book / books about this topic?
Moreover: Is there summoning spells on Wizardforums?
What is your method?

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07-29-2012, 01:51 AM
Post: #7
(07-29-2012 01:00 AM)Vitus Lazarus Wrote:  Interesting.

Yes, I should try to summon a real spirit.
You see, it's the paradox to be a chaote - how can be everything true... or false? Smiling

So the only way to prove to myself that spirits are real is to summon one of them?

Can you recommend a book / books about this topic?
Moreover: Is there summoning spells on Wizardforums?
What is your method?

If you go with modern evocation techniques you can find a good method in Donald Michael Kraig's book Modern Magick, if I recall correctly it's chapter 9 or chapter 11. I could be wrong though, I haven't opened that book in years. Also anything by E.A. Koetting is good, though all of his books are published in limited copies, usually less than 700 so re-sellers sell them for upwards of $300 on eBay (though I did find his book Evoking Eternity on Amazon for less than $20 a few months ago. That book is specifically on the topic of evocation).

As for me, I practice Solomonic evocation, the method described in many grimoires of old.

You sold your soul to me, need I remind you?

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07-29-2012, 06:39 AM
Post: #8
(07-29-2012 01:51 AM)The God-King Wrote:  If you go with modern evocation techniques you can find a good method in Donald Michael Kraig's book Modern Magick, if I recall correctly it's chapter 9 or chapter 11. I could be wrong though, I haven't opened that book in years. Also anything by E.A. Koetting is good, though all of his books are published in limited copies, usually less than 700 so re-sellers sell them for upwards of $300 on eBay (though I did find his book Evoking Eternity on Amazon for less than $20 a few months ago. That book is specifically on the topic of evocation).

As for me, I practice Solomonic evocation, the method described in many grimoires of old.

Thank you! Smiling

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07-29-2012, 08:01 AM
Post: #9
(07-29-2012 06:39 AM)Vitus Lazarus Wrote:  
(07-29-2012 01:51 AM)The God-King Wrote:  If you go with modern evocation techniques you can find a good method in Donald Michael Kraig's book Modern Magick, if I recall correctly it's chapter 9 or chapter 11. I could be wrong though, I haven't opened that book in years. Also anything by E.A. Koetting is good, though all of his books are published in limited copies, usually less than 700 so re-sellers sell them for upwards of $300 on eBay (though I did find his book Evoking Eternity on Amazon for less than $20 a few months ago. That book is specifically on the topic of evocation).

As for me, I practice Solomonic evocation, the method described in many grimoires of old.

Thank you! Smiling

No problem. Do keep in mind there will most likely be several failed attempts before you finally get a full blown evocation. Just make sure to follow whichever book you're using to the letter. Leave nothing out and add nothing until you've become more seasoned.

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07-29-2012, 08:28 AM
Post: #10
(07-29-2012 08:01 AM)The God-King Wrote:  No problem. Do keep in mind there will most likely be several failed attempts before you finally get a full blown evocation. Just make sure to follow whichever book you're using to the letter. Leave nothing out and add nothing until you've become more seasoned.

All right. Wink
After working with servitors it will be probably unfamiliar... but I'll give a chance to evoking. Smiling

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