The Lucid Abyss

Hello. I’ve come here tonight to discuss a certain aspect of lucid dreams which has drawn my interest recently, and for which I would like to draw the thoughts, experiences, and observations of others, especially those who’ve personally experienced this specific dimension of dream consciousness. To give some background for context, I’ll briefly describe myself. Although this introduction may not seem very brief, it is in comparison to the true depth of this madness, beheld in its fullest form.

I am an atheist in some sense of the word, and also a skeptic, however I also recognize the existence of paranormal, paraphysical, and otherwise mysterious phenomena which remain unexplained by science and may in some cases be ultimately unexplainable. I am interested in a broad range of fields, especially the paranormal and metaphysics. These fields include dreams, hypnagogia, hypnopompia, sleep paralysis, shadows, demonology, astral projection, cosmology, eschatology, UFOs, aliens, conspiracy theories, futurism, transhumanism, epistemological anarchism, dream stasis, psychedelics, numerology, synchronicity, science, literature, music, magic, and the occult in general. I’ve personally observed shadows, UFOs, and astral projection states, and have personally interviewed multiple individuals who’ve reported experiences of shadows, UFOs, and other anomalous phenomena. Some of these cases I’ve cataloged in writing, both of myself and others. I first encountered what is called a “shadow person” when I was an adolescent. I had begun to experience sleep paralysis around that time, and since my first encounter I’ve encountered a number of other shadow entities in both quasi-waking near-sleep states and lucid dreams, and possibly once in normal waking. I’ve also observed multiple UFOs as stated, and I am particularly interested in black triangle UFOs, which I do not think are all mere human black projects. (I know of no explicit connection between this thread’s primary topic and black triangle UFOs, but I find myself compelled to mention them.) As I grew older, I became more interested in the shadow phenomenon, particularly the shadow archetype that is identified as a ‘hooded figure’ as opposed to the shadow identified as a ‘hat man’ by some. I’ve generally only encountered the hooded figure type, while others, such as a relative of mine, have only encountered a hat shadow. (Again, I mention these details for the sake of context and clarity.) I’ve read a number of books on both shadows and other paranormal topics, and I also found myself periodically faced with others who’d had similar experiences. I’ve identified a number of types of shadows, and have noted some possible correlations between shadows (or other entities) and paraphysical states such as lucid dreams, hypnagogia/hypnopompia, astral projection, and/or others. However, at this time, I do not take a position as to whether shadows are in any instance conscious in any way. I am agnostic in this respect. I do, however, no longer find this question of sentience very important (let alone answerable), and I am instead more-so interested in the experience of shadows itself, the forms and powers of shadows, and other such questions which do not necessarily hinge upon any model of shadow sentience. More specifically, it doesn’t really matter to me in some respect whether shadows are ever conscious, in the sense that, regardless of their sentience or lack thereof, shadows do comprise an aspect of the human experience to some extent, they do frequently behave in quasi-intelligent fashions and may emit quasi-voices, and in such respects, shadows may be considered demons in some sense. Since my later experiences of shadows, I’ve taken a deeper interest in other kinds of entities, particularly entities that more-so suit the conventional mold of a demon, though again, I do consider shadows demons in some sense of the word regardless of their sentience or lack thereof. This question of demons ultimately relates to the primary topic of this thread, that is, what I may term the Lucid Abyss, a state also called Bardo, dream yoga, or Void.

As an addendum to this introduction, let me explain my stance on dream theory. I am not a traditional psychoanalyst. While I find conventional psychoanalytic dream theory has some degree of validity, it is not a holistic or unequivocal explanation of the dream state. One of the reasons for this is that, as it stands, psychoanalytic dream theory essentially only covers the nature of human dream states, and this naturally begs the question of the nature of all possible dream states of all possible entities across the cosmos past, present, and future. Although humans may only be capable of [X] type dream states, this still leaves the question of whether other entities may be capable of deeper or more powerful dream states, etc. This is only one reason I don’t put much stock in conventional psychoanalytic dream theory. Beyond this, I find the typical psychoanalytic dream interpreter places far too much emphasis on symbolism, especially subconscious symbolism. Although there does indeed seem to be some degree of symbolism (in some sense) present in many dreams, this is, again, not a holistic or even unequivocal interpretation, and there are many aspects of dreams that do not quite reduce to a mere symbolic manifestation, at least in the way many theorists frame them. Generally, when you see a conventional psychoanalyst interpret a dream, they’ll phrase their interpretation something along the lines of, “[X] symbolizes [Y]. You have a certain issue, desire, or fantasy in your conscious or subconscious mind and this manifests as [X].” Basically, according to this sort of interpretation of dreams, dreams are nothing more than symbolic meta-imaginations orchestrated by the brain’s subconscious psychodynamics of desire, thought, and memory; there are never any sentient entities within the dream state other than the human dreamer, everything reduces to a symbol or form of wish fulfillment or something non-paranormal, and, ultimately, the entire dream state amounts to an elaborate internal fantasy devoid of any inhuman intelligence or force. Again, I do acknowledge the evident existence of some sort of symbolism in dreams. However, unlike many dream theorists, I am open to other interpretations, and I recognize the innate inability of individuals to indubitably determine the exact holistic nature of any given dream state. While it may be simple and convenient to regard the entire dream phenomenon as an utterly non-paranormal internal exercise in subconscious symbolism or wish fulfillment or whatever, there is, in reality, no clear explanation of the dream phenomenon, and stranger questions and theories lurk in the dialectical peripheral which many seem to dismiss off-hand without the slightest consideration.

Some of these stranger questions or theories include the concepts of co-conscious dream entities (i.e. entities generated by the dreamer’s mind who are themselves conscious like the dreamer, at least within the confines of the dreamscape); the potential of the dream state’s unique psychic energy to evolve into external or other anomalous states such as astral projection or other modalities; the potential of external or internal paranormal entities to interfere with, infiltrate, or otherwise affect a subject’s dream state; the potential of dreamers to interact with each other in dream states in some fashion (i.e. mutual dreams); the potential of a dream state to manifest ‘thought-forms’ that may persist beyond the dream state into waking and theoretically take on a life of their own; and any other concept that otherwise deviates from the standard modern dream theories and is not yet known to be impossible. Having said this, I am not here to debate dream theory. I could likely anticipate anything one would say in objection to this section of this discourse, and I assure you we will not make any significant progress toward an ultimate resolution of this ancient question. I am agnostic with respect to dream theory, in the end. I don’t know the ultimate nature of dreams and neither do you. We have fragments of information, we have various theories, but there is and always will be a logical shroud that rests over the bizarre realm of consciousness we call the dream. I admit my fascination with dreams goes much deeper than this, and I’ve developed a kind of mystical reverence for the dream state, particularly nightmares.

I am much more interested in nightmares than other kinds of dreams, and in fact I do not personally distinguish between dreams and nightmares for my own reasons. In the spirit of a certain vein of surrealist thought, I also view dreams not in terms of discrete separate vignettes but as scattered fragments of a cosmic whole, what I call the Nightmare. Envision, if you will, all dreams of all creatures across the entire cosmos, past, present, and future, considered as a single vast labyrinthine mosaic of otherworldly psychical dimensions comprised of a countless array of entities, realms, and unique psychic states. This is the Nightmare. I could delve much deeper into this mysticism here, but I do not find this medium very fitting for such purposes. I will only say I hold a mystical regard for dreams, and, although the word magic disturbs many for their own reasons, magic is in a very authentic sense possible in the dream dimension. Telekinesis, levitation, conjuration, and other such sorceries may come easily to a wanderer of the Nightmare. While many would be quick to dismiss these phenomena as ‘mere dreams’ in their terms, in reality, the dreamer exists in what is to the dreamer a real, perceptible, structured dimension of consciousness that contains its own unique physics, its own unique psychodynamics, and, as such, its own unique magic. The Lucid Abyss is only one aspect of this strangest of dimensions…

Reality is whatever reality is, regardless of what humans think it is or isn’t. Call life natural, call it magical, it doesn’t really matter what you call it. It’s all mystical to me, mystical and enigmatic.

Of note to this discussion, I find it important to emphasize the observation that the dream state seems to contain an element that is not reducible to the dreamer’s conscious desires. This is termed the subconscious mind by some, of course. However, I more specifically mean to emphasize that, as others besides myself have noticed, there seems to be a powerful dynamic force hidden within the dream that feels conscious, intelligent, and interested in the dreamer, and as such would not quite suit the concept of the subconscious that many have in mind. There is more I could say about this subject, but I’ll only leave this note here for now.

Another note I would touch upon is the correlation I’ve observed between supine sleep and lucid dreams or other altered states such as those described. For some reason, sleeping on your spine may have a real physical effect on the potential of having a lucid dream or other altered state. Other conditions that may affect this vein include sleep deprivation, getting to sleep earlier rather than later (such as between 9:00 and 11:00 PM), the consumption of psychedelics, the consumption of or abstinence from cannabis, common lucid dream practices, and the time 3:33 AM.

Like many lucid dreamers, my lucid dream career has evolved over time. When I first began to lucid dream, they would normally be nothing more than a brief sort of curious recognition that I was distinctly aware I was asleep, and within a dream. I also experienced other anomalous states, hypnagogic and hypnopompic states, sleep paralysis, vague senses of a power to leave my body. However, I don’t find my lucid dreams in particular went very deep, so to speak. Eventually, I began to impulsively fly, perform telekinesis, and I developed an interest in the celestial realm of dreamscapes, beyond the skies of the dream. Despite this, I found myself instinctively hesitant to depart the sky of a dreamscape, as it felt very detached and unknown, as if I would enter another modality of the dream altogether and perhaps even leave the planet. I still ventured into outer dream space at points, encountered strange celestial zeniths, and so on. I would also speak to dream characters sometimes, hold conversations. After I read a certain book on lucid dreams which some of you are likely familiar with, I took an even deeper interest in the ultimate nature of lucid dreams. I began to address the ‘dream itself’ to manifest certain characters, realms, or objects. I developed a habit of conjuring texts in my dreams, the bizarre contents of which I attempted a number of times to memorize and record in waking. As a side note, I became interested in the past two years in a concept of a certain kind of dream text, namely, a book, or more specifically a tome which contains an extensive array of otherworldly esoterica, and which, in my conception, has the ability to mutate its interior, such that each time one closes and opens the book, one may find a different interior, whether in terms of the runes, creatures, pages, page count, or other such details present within the text. I did eventually find myself in possession of one such book in a lucid dream some time ago, which behaved in the fashion I described. At some point in my lucid dream odyssey, both before and after I began to address the dream itself for manifestations, I would consciously seek to conjure or otherwise encounter shadow entities in dreamscapes, primarily to converse with them, and see what they had to say. Sometimes, encounters of shadows in lucid dreams have transitioned to hypnopompic states, false awakenings, or astral projection. I recorded many such experiences over time, but eventually I felt as if I was still missing something significant, I felt and still feel there is a deeper dimension of the dream that transcends what we may term normal lucid dreams. I pursued lucid dreams and other altered states, and continue to pursue such realities tonight, although I admit I’ve been consumed in other aspects of my life for some years now, and I haven’t yet decided to establish a stable, directed regimen conducive to the focused furtherance of such esoteric pursuits. In time, I would like to incorporate a number of other elements into my study, such as psychedelics, ritual magic, and dream stasis, i.e., a state of suspended dream consciousness maintained via a technology (such as what we may term a dream stasis pod) or other method. The concept of dream stasis is still nascent, and I appear to be one of the only theorists who is actively studying it at the moment. For those of us who wish to study the dream phenomenon further, the concept of dream stasis may provide the deepest means by which we can access the dream state itself. I will leave this concept to be developed for now, as it is not the primary topic of this thread.

Within about the past month, I began to develop an interest in a certain oneiric practice which essentially involves a lucid descent into the depths of the dreamscape in which one initially finds oneself at the onset of lucidity, or descent another terrestrial dreamscape to which one travels. When you first become lucid in a dream, it seems you generally find yourself in a specific structured dreamscape. This dreamscape frequently contains elements reminiscent of personal memory, whether they be locations, individuals, objects. In many instances, lucid dreamers remain in the approximate vicinity of this dreamscape, and do not depart. Sometimes, they’ll move to a dreamscape some distance away from the initial vector, perhaps over the horizon. Sometimes, as described, they’ll ascend into the sky, and into outer dream space. They may perform various kinds of sorcery, conjure and/or speak to entities in the dream, address the dream itself, so on and so forth. I’ve pretty much done all of this at some point or another. Then, I found I had a strange impulse to descend into the unknown depths of the dream itself. I have various ends I seek in this realm of the dream dimension. Although such ends are of some relevance to this thread, I do not wish to describe my interests in full detail. I will say I am interested in demons, Hell, invocation, possession, and other related questions. My ultimate interests would be characterized as rather dark by many, although I assure you I am quite friendly, and I am first and foremost a metaphysicist, interested to understand the ultimate nature of reality whatever it may be. This leads me to what I’ve here termed the Lucid Abyss.

On some occasions, when I descend into the lucid dreamscape’s depths, I have encountered a vivid, structured realm comprised of quasi-material dimensions, which often contain visible entities, some of which I’ve conversed with. I’ve also noted a marked mental clarity that descent into this kind of realm can bring. This is, in some way, the primary kind of realm I’m interested in with respect to this kind of nether realm. Part of the reason I’m interested in this practice of lucid descent is that, to me, it sort of makes the initial dreamscape fade away, and introduces what may be considered a deeper, darker dreamscape. This can depend in part upon one’s desires, interests, and expectations prior to and during the descent. For me, I find such a lucid descent holds both symbolic and practical value, in the sense that it both symbolically and literally delves into the deeper nethers of the dream, and may yield subjectively deeper or more sinister manifestations as such. This practice may, to some extent, effectively access depths of the subconscious in a way that terrestrial or celestial dreamscapes do not. Considered in this light, it makes some sense that a descent into the depths of the dream would access a deeper dimension of the dreamer’s psyche. The realms accessed in this nightmare nether vary from dreamer to dreamer and dream to dream. However, I intuitively sense a certain mutual psychodynamic principle shared between dreamers and dreams which descend to this depth. I can’t say with any certainty exactly what the nature of this dimension of dreams is and all of the potentials it involves, and that’s precisely what this thread is about, in part. As usual, I would anticipate many dream theorists to regard this dimension of the dream as a mere symbolic manifestation or wish fulfillment or something otherwise devoid of paranormal, mystical, or non-standard significance. Also as usual, I do not take a stance yet on what exactly the ultimate nature of this dream dimension is. It certainly isn’t normal, in my experience. That isn’t to say it’s paranormal, but it certainly isn’t the usual from what I can tell, even in the dream lives of lucid dreamers, who often do not engage in such descents. Bear in mind I only adopted this practice recently, and have not had much time to experiment and otherwise explore the potentials of this oneiric realm. There is an extensive number of possible practices and pursuits that one may seek within such a realm, whether it be the posing of queries, the access of hidden realms or states, the invocation of entities or forces, the art of lucid dream dialogue, or any other means or end that one may wish to acquire. Yet still, we haven’t quite reached the question of the Lucid Abyss, which I will address now. Forgive me for my longevity here. Nature is very intricate, and it’s also been many years since I’ve written a serious philosophical thread like this. I found it beneficial to give some context first, rather than jump right to this peculiar issue of the Void.

Within short order, I found that, sometimes, when I descend into the depths of a lucid dream in search of a deeper dream, I find myself enshrouded in a vast black abyss. I have seen this sort of dream chasm described elsewhere, a sort of hidden pit of shadow within the dream itself. I recall I’ve also experienced it once or twice in the past. Even when I consciously seek a structured nether realm and intend to enter one, I often find myself descending into this pure darkness instead. In fact, this may occur in the majority of descents, to date. As you can already tell, I am rather thoughtful, and so I have already contemplated the nature of this oneiric abyss in some detail. I have considered psychoanalytic interpretations, metaphysical theories, syncretic analyses. Before I delve deeper into a theoretical account of this dimension of consciousness however, I will describe more of my experience of this dark domain.

First, let me be clear that this realm is, to me, in virtually every instance, what I can describe as a quasi-bottomless black abyss. When I descend into this abyss, I can immediately tell I’ve entered it yet again, indicated by both the vivid black expanse and this subjective sense of what I can describe as a sort of physical rush of dark speed. Descent seems to transpire very rapidly in the abyss, and I will soon enough question how far down from the dreamscape I’ve gone. I have responded to this abyss in a number of ways: 1) I have continued to descend into the darkness, perhaps to enter a new dreamscape or some other structured dimension (this seems to be met in almost every instance with a mere perpetuation of descent into the abyss, as if it is endless); 2) I have sensed an intelligence in the abyss, and have invoked entities and seen faces or other forms appear (these manifestations often appear comprised of what one may call phosphenic light); 3) I have descended so deep or so fast into the abyss that I seem to break the veil and awake; and 4) I have recently decided, while in the abyss, to ascend upward to the dreamscape whence I came, which has resulted in my arrival to the dreamscape again. This latter phenomenon, in which I descend into the abyss and then ascend to the dreamscape I left, strongly suggests to me the existence of a structured spatial geometry of sorts in such a dream, in which the dreamscape is on the relative upper layer of the dream and the abyss is on the relative lower layer. Just last night, I descended into the abyss and shortly returned to the dreamscape, and around that time, I decided to see whether I could descend partially into the abyss, but not fully. I lowered myself under the dreamscape’s surface far enough that I could see the distinct darkness below it, but shallow enough that I could clearly observe the dreamscape on the surface above the abyss, including the character in front of me. I later conversed with a few characters in this dreamscape, and we seemed to either descend into a deeper dream or the dreamscape shifted and a number of other entities were introduced. We can observe from this perception of a split between dreamscape and dream abyss that each of them can exist simultaneously, one above the other, and the lucid dreamer may choose between the two. I would also emphasize that the abyss doesn’t seem or feel empty, but rather has a dark appearance, and may still manifest forms. One’s perceptual angle in relation to the abyss may also have some effect on what the abyss manifests, whether one looks straight ahead, looks down, looks up, etc. Your sleep position and other such physiological factors may also play a role. These are all questions to be further considered and explored.

Naturally, many would be inclined to dismiss all of this as nothing more than vivid creations of my mind. But that doesn’t fully explain this phenomenon, and is also presumptuous. Just saying, “It’s all in your head.” doesn’t really explain what it is that’s in your head, what your head is, and whether any other minds might enter your head in any way. There does certainly seem to be something strange in my head, but I’m not sure yet what exactly that is.

I am primarily interested in this thread to describe this abyss and also the practice of lucid descent for analysis, provide users the opportunity to detail their own experiences or theories of either this abyss or lucid descent, and thereby potentially enhance my knowledge of this dimension of the dream. I am certainly not omniscient, and there are certainly many questions this kind of dream state raises, both for my own personal psyche and the nature of dreams in general. I will say that out of all the kinds of dream states I’ve experienced, the lucid nether feels the deepest to me, whether it be a structured realm or this black abyss. I want to understand why I descend into this abyss rather than the structured domain I usually seek, and though I am open to your considerations and theories, I would ask you not state interpretations of my dreams as if they’re absolute fact. Certainly this abyss within my mind indicates a dark presence in my psyche, in some tautological sense. One may interpret this abyss to symbolize emptiness, mystery, death, or any number of other aspects of reality. But again, that is only an interpretation, and I feel the lucid nether in question is too otherworldly, enigmatic, and powerful to reduce to a mere symbolic manifestation or wish fulfillment. There is an actual magical reality at play here, in the sense that the abyss or other lucid nether realms offer a vivid alternate dimension of consciousness that does not abide by the typical physics of waking and that evidently contains varied unknown potentials we’ve yet to fully grasp.

Theories of the Lucid Abyss:

1) Per a certain psychoanalytic interpretation, the abyss is a symbolic manifestation of conscious or subconscious emptiness, mystery, death, or other dark elements of an individual’s psyche. It may indicate a lack of a certain psychical element such as vitality, organization, or stability. Conversely, it may involve relatively positive elements and may assume a brighter appearance for some. It may involve a form of wish fulfillment, in which an individual’s desires may manifest as a vast dark space devoid of the normal traits of dreams or life.
2) The abyss comprises a nether dimension of the subconscious, devoid of the normal traits of dreamscapes. It may be conceived of as pure subconscious potential incarnate, the ultimate foundation of all dreams within the mind, the psychic reservoir of dreamscapes. This theory suggests the abyss embodies the core of the subconscious, a visual manifestation of the dream psyche’s infinite potential à la the Void.
3) The abyss involves a paranormal, mystical, or non-standard dynamic, which cannot be reduced to conventional psychoanalytic interpretation and which may involve the manifestation of co-conscious or inhuman entities or other otherworldly forces.
4) The abyss is some combination of the above or something else altogether.

Questions of the Lucid Abyss:

1) Why would a lucid dreamer enter the abyss rather than a structured nether realm?
2) What potentials does the abyss or other nether realms of the dream hold?
3) What relation does the abyss hold to other aspects of the dream?
4) What relation does the abyss hold to waking consciousness or waking up?
5) Can one force a lucid descent to avoid the abyss? If so, how?
6) How exactly is the abyss formed?

With respect to question 5) above, this is one of my primary intrigues here. For now, I find this abyss rather too unstructured for my purposes, and I also have this sense now that the abyss may bring one closer to the veil between sleep and waking, and could cause one to awake. However, I am still interested in the potentials of this domain, even whether it may serve some of my purposes further than it has so far. So far, when I enter this abyss, it feels as if the rapid transition between elaborate dreamscape and the hidden nether realm sought by me leaves the dream with little time to manifest what I seek, and this impulse to depth itself may play a role in the existence of this oneiric void. In other words, it’s almost as if I’m asking too much of the dream sometimes, and, instead of the rich underworld I seek – which I’ve nonetheless encountered on occasion, I am given a sort of blank slate to ponder.

With respect to question 1), I have considered that the location at which one descends in the dreamscape may have some effect on both the quality of the nether realm and whether one enters an abyss. Bear in mind as well one’s descent vector can be solid (to the extent anything in a dream is solid), although, as has been observed by others, if one strongly anticipates a surface to be solid or is afraid it will be solid or impassable, this may result in it being solid.

I do indeed wish to hear the experiences of others in this domain. Furthermore, this thread may inspire other lucid dreamers to engage in such descents, and perhaps enter this abyss or other realms for themselves. Something about both the abyss and the other nether realms speaks to me of a yet deeper hidden potential, which requires a certain focus to realize. This is one of the reasons I’m so interested in dream stasis. If one could dwell within a lucid dream state for an extended interval such as days or even weeks or more, one could in theory explore and experiment deeper than ever before. Even in the longest lucid dreams, there is this sense of impending end, of an imminent dissolution of the veil, and the return of one’s consciousness to the normal rules of waking. Waking interests me very little anymore. Humans also interest me very little, which is another reason I’m so interested in the entities that dwell within dreams, and nightmares in particular. I am, as it were, a kind of nightmare collector. I collect memories, memories of shadows, memories of nightmares, memories of demons. Feel free to message me with any of your thoughts, questions, or memories. I am always interested to collect another nightmare. For now, I will leave this thread here, and see whether anyone takes the time to read through all of my mad ramblings.

With love,
Dread Lord Xinmeir