I am, of course, talking about physical (or more accurately, visual) manifestations of spirits. How clear/detailed do you see them? Imperial Arts, if you're reading this, I would like you to chime in, since I read some of the articles on your blog.
For me personally, not really vivid. Hell, even my hypnopompic hallucinations aren't vivid. They've never been vivid. If you could imagine eye floaters forming faces and symbols (which are obviously faces and symbols) and generally standing in one place, that would be sort of how I see them.
Well, evocations in my understanding are the the most advanced form of Goetic practice and would take years of skill/study and synchronicity building to manifest.
Like you I am fairly clairaudient. And the most physical manifestations I've ever gotten was with electrical equipment going on the fritz. And only recently I could feel spirits touching my face and my skin when I ask them to. Which is surprising as this was much more tangible a skill than my clairaudience when I was starting.
*an unplugged radio turned on during my Lucifuge Ceremony *a lightbulb wire literally fried during my second Lucifuge Ceremony and I could smell the smoke.
I wish I could get to the point where full Physical Manifestation would be in my cards of skills but I need to develop my ability to perceive with my eyes first.
Ha, same thing with me and my clairsentience! Honestly, I still have no idea what factors contribute to the physical manifestation. I've had forms in the smoke before with some strange lights, I've heard footsteps outside my room (nobody else home), I've had smells, noises, singing, etc. But, it doesn't happen as often as I want it. The things that are consistent are atmosphere changes, pressure, physical touches and hearing the spirit. I guess the more I practice evocation the more the visual stuff will occur (I've noticed a lot more activity now than before) but still, it'd be really nice to be able to see the form with my eyes in almost every evocation.
you are preaching to the crowd brother. I adhere to Crowley's Statement about invoking often. We do experience some moments of enlightenment along with more questions during each invocation but it is the only sure-way I can say to improve results over time. I cannot say for certain if going full blown traditionalist in the ceremony will yield better results but what I am doing albeit painfully slowly is setting up temples for my Goetic Lords fully hoping that setting these up can at least improve my connection. Only time will tell.
Yes. Although, many if not all traditionalists claim to have better manifestations. That, somehow, adhering to the book to the letter grants more poltergeist activity and more vivid manifestations, without having to have astral senses open. I don't know why that would be the case other than perhaps it's the binding of the spirit that causes these things to happen. What do you think?
That may be the case but honestly I remain skeptical. Binding spirits makes me wonder what would keep them from reneging on the agreements made once free. I am sure they wont appreciate being bound in the first place. Is it really fear of god that keeps them in place. And if ever would the Christian god really permit the use of demons for personal gain without repercussions?? Only way to really find out is to try both traditional and non traditional methods and compare but I am a long way from being able to prepare all the traditional tools especially since sorcery is really a taboo subject in my country with materials being very hard to come by.
Nothing does. Particular traditionalists like to prattle on about how their system is perfect and has all these "failsafes," yet look at many of the testimonies of the grimoire magicians who have worked with demons. So many of them have reported "paying some sort of price" or experiencing "instability" of demons, so they come to the conclusion that they're wild, negative, and should be avoided. Bloody hell, Rufus Opus' house was burned down by Bune! Demons would never do such a thing to those who treat them with respect. I'm not saying there are no exceptions to this, but this is a common theme.
Despite my many criticisms of grimoire traditionalism, there are gems here and there.
You see, there's a loophole. In Le Veritable Dragon Noir, there are 2 evocations of 2 spirits that do not call on the Abrahamic deity (one evocation calls the 3 Chiefs of Hell). Even though Le Veritable Dragon Noir should be worked in Monday-Sunday order, the spirits will appear if you skip a day or more, as reported by those who have worked with the grimoire.
So, I'll be conducting an experiment wherein I'll perform an evocation by the grimoire and see if the manifestation AND the results differ. I won't be evoking them just to have see their manifestation since:
1. I don't know those spirits
2. I'm skipping a couple days, so I better have a really good reason for calling them.
Please let me know how that goes. The main reason I steered away from traditionalism is because of the need for the Abrahamic god.
In contrast doing things my way I have never had a frightening experience with these entities. Its really not that different from what Christian call creating a personal relationship. I was a very active member of my church before I went full blown into the occult for my own personal reasons.
So my theory is, that if these entities were once worshiped as gods why not work on making them temples and see if that helps me with my connection with them. So far they have kept up their end of the bargain insofar as giving me the tools and resources to begin.
Same. I mean, you're not wrong. Some of them were once worshiped as gods. They've existed before Judaism came to be. They did not originate in that tradition, nor do they exist only in the context of it.
I have the approximately the same approach to demons as you do. Shrines, altars, idols, offerings, all that jazz.
Fun fact: Michael Cecchetelli, the guy who wrote Crossed Keys (Le Veritable Dragon Noir + Enchiridion of Pope Leo III + authors experiences and notes), gave an account he received from Frimost. Essentially, Frimost scolded him for trying to coerce him, especially in the name of a deity that he (Cecchetelli) does not respect. Frimost also said that demons are not under the authority of Yahweh, nor do they have much to do with him. And that the operator can't possibly bully them into submission.
In his closing notes, the author wrote that the usage of Yahweh's names and the evocation format is a coverup for actually utilizing the authority of the 3 Infernal Chiefs (that being Lucifer, Beelzebuth, and Astaroth). So that could be the reason why grimoire methods work with demons.
So one might say that Frimost lied, but we have to bear in mind that the author did the operation by the book, to the letter. No omissions. It was ensured that the demon was telling the truth. This is in direct contradiction to what one grimoire mage was talking about (The God-King). More interestingly, it even contradicts what Astaroth has told him in his evocation.
Now I have a theory as to why spirits tell different things to different people using the same method, with many variables such as truthfulness/lying under control. But that's another story.
I have that book, but I plan on reading it after I finish reading the Book of Oberon. Both of which are very heavy texts and a lot to digest.
That makes sense about citing the 3 infernal chiefs, almost drawing a parallel to the trinity but in reverse. I'm currently working with my own trinity using Lucifer, Lucifuge and Belial/King Paimon. (I might tweak this after reading the Crossed Keys and see how that works).
In my workings tho I call on Lucifer, Leviathan, Belial and Satan as the 4 cardinal directions when I do my daily invocation. Don't ask why it just seems to work for me when I do my workings as the results are becoming more and more palpable the more I do it. A couple of days ago I received a new sigil for working with the 9 goetic Kings and it just kinda showed up in my head during the ceremony, and a few days before that i saw images of Djinn, 3 very distinct faces which surprisingly were in the Book of Deadly names which I happened to just run into the next day. I found out they were Djinn after reading the book. But why I saw them, fuck if I know lol. One other time I met a Goetic MetaGod who called himself Praxis. the results can be kind of random lol.
Now I am on a daily basis trying to invoke the 9 Goetic kings enn mass. I'm getting better and better at establishing the connection but I am missing the visible aspect of it. Physically I feel them all over my body with different energies and I can hear them clearly and speak to them but I cannot for the life of me see them. But its gotten better and easier, the first time i felt like a huge blob of messy nothingness after due to all the energies involved and it was all very dense to the point my head felt like it was being squeezed.
You'd think you get answers by invoking daily but I seem to get more and more questions. All I can do is tweak and tweak my approach little by little to see if the results get better or worse or at least more clear. I guess that is why some practitioners really consider this a science.
Ah, yes, that book is not a small bite. In that book, you have a Roman method of evoking Satan, which is pretty simple.
Well, I say do some experimentation; see what works best for you. For me, the 3 Infernal Chiefs work really really well, even if I don't have a bond with Beelzebuth.
Praxis? What is he composed of, if I may ask?
You know, there are far more than 9 Goetic Kings. If you want to be REALLY hardcore, get yourself Liber Officiorum Spirituum (A book of office of spirits), and invoke all of the kings from there. I wouldn't recommend that, though.
lol I am very tempted but I think I will give that book a try at the right time. almost 2 years seriously into the practice and I am still working on honing my skills.
I was told that there are literally thousand if not millions of different entities and that the rankings do not really have the same bearing as how we understand it.
My take is their realm is really just that expansive in size that different kingdoms/lands/realms could exist and the Catalogs we have do not do the realms justice.
Praxis is amorphous, and made up of as he/she/it claims all 72 listed entities. Honestly I was just in deep trance and exploring the tree of death starting from Satariel and bumped into Praxis. It kinda formed into something in front of me. Now I had no way of verifying its claims as I have not worked with all listed entities. He did tell me that he was what I was seeking and I guess in a more meta sense, communing with all the Goetic Entities is my end game goal as lofty as that sounds for a neophyte. It was really hard to keep the connection even in the astral as Praxis kept changing form eventually and trying to keep perceiving him brought me out of trance which sucked because the was the first time I was able maintain my trance state that long while just exploring what I think are called the tunnels of Set.
It was a different experience for me but I figure if I would ever run into it again I'll be more prepared. It was too large an experience for me to take in.
I have a gnosis about ranks, which I can't share, but I can say that you are somewhat correct. Let's just say that all hierarchies put out there are incorrect at worst, and at best incomplete. Very, very incomplete.
Praxis is called the Goetikon or Atozephos by V.K. Jehannum, in case you didn't know. He/she/it is apparently a legitimate entity. Though, make sure you verify that it is indeed who it says it is. Ask for a signature, ask your Patron/Patroness, guides, ancestors, or what have you.
Sounds like you had an interesting experience overall. Meta-entities really are something else, aren't they?
Yes they are, but damn are they hard to keep looking at. The more I focus on trying to perceive it the more my ego kicks in and I end fighting my own mind between the state of surrender/trance and just really trying to piece a visual which makes it so hard. Other entities aren't nearly as difficult perceive.
I wish I had a way to verify, but in case I do run into it I do want to ask it a lot of questions. Looking it up as funny as it sounds Praxis is a loose translation of practice which makes what it told me kinda of synchronize lol.
So back to my daily invocation practice I go. I just finished my exercise for today. I did find a good song to meditate with. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9sYsXyU77E0 the bell sounds just help my mind lock into my trance state.
What normally happens when I do this is I start in a familiar area I have explored, in this case Satariel, I feel at home there as at least in my experience with Lucifuge it is a realm he resides in. Then let myself go until it gets too trippy and hard to absorb. I can imagine its close to a DMT trip but I do not have a reference to that as of yet. As of now until I can improve my capacity to perceive even in my minds eye/astraly or physically, I do not learn anything new by doing this which is why I said you get more questions than answers sometimes.
I started with VK's incantations to self initiate but I tweaked it a little with the incantations mentioned in Karlssons Qaballah Qlipthoth and Goetic Magic and invoking Lucifer, Leviathan, Belial, and Satan in place of the spirits of the 4 cardinal directions.
I also do this while Playing a recording of me chanting the Enns of King Paimon, Lucifuge, and Lucifer in the background 108 times. Do not have a basis here aside from my personal gnosis as they function as my mentors and teachers.
Yes it is really chaotic, but the trick is to surrender to the chaos and record what I see after the ceremony. It's hard to remember everything tho after. You know you hit the sweet spot when your emotions, physical sensations and the visions (not visualizations) you see when you close your eyes are completely random. It is in this space I can actually feel connected to either the Qliphothic sphere I am working with or even when I invoke Goetic beings. Hard to really describe it tho. Takes a while to get there and battling the ego all the way there takes practice to get right.
Closest analogue I can show you of how it sorta eventually looks is like this DMT trip visual on youtube without the sound.
Its like that but not that clear. And it begins as black and white translucent images that just take all sorts of random form but in the chaos you do eventually see faces, shapes, places, what looks like temples and a black tunnel that just stretches for what seems like forever with ever changing walls?? honestly I really can't do it justice.
But its because of this that I am very interested in trying DMT whilst trying to attempt this. Perhaps there is a connection worth investigating. I mean many grimoirs allude to mind altering substances anyway. But thats just me.
As to benefits, aside from getting a completely trippy experience. I was able to get a better level of synchronicity with my Patron Entities. And clearer channels to invoke and communicate which eventually leads to better pacts.
Sorry guys I didn't mean to interrupt but Michael Cecchetelli is a known scammer. He got money from many clients and didn't do work. He is not trustworthy that's why he is cast out from some places. If I were you, I wouldn't trust any words he said.
That's surprising and unfortunate to know. But like any grimoirs I tend to take everything mentioned with a grain of salt. That being said the proof is always in the pudding, he may be a scammer but I will still give his formulae a read and a try.
He most certainly is a charlatan, though. In his mastering evocation course, he fakes possession. In that video, he was possessed by a "demon of languages" yet he did not change his way of speaking, and what's worse is that he stuttered (like he usually does in the course) and mispronounced some words, only to correct himself right after. It was so cringy.
Then, if you ever watched his live evocation/possession rituals, you would've seen that "the demons" speak exactly like him - "You are a living god, claim your empire; you are king" blah blah ego stroking blah. Spirits, especially high ranking demons, have a distinct way of speaking. And they most certainly do not stroke one's own ego. If anything, they'd bruise the person's ego, making them more humble.
Koetting is a charlatan at worst, and a delusional mentalist at best.
Evoking to physical appearance is a skill I've had to develop. Specifically, the active visualizations prescribed in Franz Bardon's IIH were of immeasurable value to me in my development. The magus who introduced me to IIH used this concept of 'Back screen'\'Front screen' to explain, and I find the description very useful. Basically, most people visualize on the back screen. This is often described as the inner eye. With practice, you can transfer this image to the front screen, ie visual appearance. With even more practice, these images can be made to appear opaque and solid. Once a magician can make a tennis ball, then a clock, then an animal, you have a tool you can work with to bring a spirit to physical appearance. It seems to me this practice in some way 'embodies' or in stone way confers some degree of substance to an entity. This in turn appears to aid the entity in Assyatic/physical operations.
This is very interesting. Ill pick up the books and try it out. Recently, I have been getting experiences in my methods where I can still physically see the room with my eyes closed.I mean literally see the room the furniture and outlines etc with floating things superimposed on it. Not sure what to make of it yet but it was a very new experience.
That's exactly it. It's useful, in my view to start 'front screen' projection with one's eyes closed. When you're able to project a clear, opaque image with your eyes closed, you can transition to projecting with eyes open. It's my opinion that with this tool, you can provide a sort of 'high resolution canvas' for your (depending on the paradigm you use) subconsious/spirit/energy to 'paint' on.
I expect the spirit to appear in clear and distinct form, whether it is shadow or vivid detail of glistening jewels or scales, or however else it chooses to show itself. This has been a relatively consistent feature, but I would add that anything we see or hear is a matter of our brains putting together an image from sensory inputs. I am extremely skeptical of any hint that these are "physical" apparitions, regardless of any appearance to the contrary.
I see. Do you consistently see them really vividly as you would see a person or something from a movie? Or does that happen every now and then, or rare? Also, are you in an altered state of consciousness when they appear to you like that? Does your level of relaxation / alteration of your consciousness correlate with the vividness of the apparition?
Almost always, there is some initial effect which identifies the presence of the spirit, the "sign of approach." These are extremely varied, all sorts of things which are just out of the ordinary, after which the spirit is given the Address and requested to make itself more readily apparent. Although the process in itself resembles a gradual hypnotic induction, I do not work with any state of mind that I might call altered. Their images are consistent, clear, vivid, and responsive. The few instances in which the spirits failed to comply with requests to appear were deemed an overall failure and did not proceed beyond that point.
I follow the text as written, without omissions. Prior to that, I explored a few other options and did not find them to be as effective. It might be worth mentioning that I spent several years working at regular disciplines in the Golden Dawn tradition, as well as tutelage under a Native medicine worker who had his own approach to spirit conjuration.
Ah, well. It seems that you've already worked on your astral senses before jumping into grimoire magic, no? Have you ever done an operation from the Grimorium Verum, or Crossed Keys? How did it/they compare with your Lemegeton operations? Also, why do you think grimoire magic was most effective for you?
One of the better points in favor of "grimoire magic" is that you have the benefits of specific instructions and a clear working format. Some of the more organic approaches rely on your own estimate of whether you are doing nothing or not, and for that reason they are difficult for anyone seeking an experiment. As fas as I'm concerned, anything that isn't redundant is experimental.
I think that it ultimately boils down to finding an approach that you can make your own to some degree, that fits the things you wish to express to the spirits and allows you to aim for your real goals. Anyone whose goal is spirit experiences just needs to quit, go do drugs and play D&D. The point of messing with the spirits is getting knowledge or exerting visible influence in the world at large, not a social experience with discarnate beings.
Although neither of my parents were religious, I went through nine years of Catholic school, and the format of the grimoires works very well with that. If the Pope had been more amenable to married priests, there is little doubt that I would have become one, and this kind of interest might have some relation to the whole grimoire ritual thing.
I have not read Crossed Keys, but as a young teen I made a little pocket copy of the Enchiridion in multicolored floral calligraphy, and carried it with me everywhere. It is now concealed in a cathedral. In general, I believe that books like the Enchiridion are designed to encourage people toward becoming bigger no better on their own accord, and to derive spiritual authority from all those opportunities to choose integrity over vice.
I agree that having spirit experience so you can brag about it as your main goal is a waste, but striving to get better at evocation, to have better manifestations through the improvement of one's own astral senses is most certainly not a waste.
The latter is beneficial for both the magician and the spirit. But, it can't be done with just about any spirit...
Note: Seeing the spirits in your mind's eye while your eyes are closed doesn't count. I am curious as to how clear do you see spirits externally from yourself when the spirit is present in your ritual chamber.
Well I guess I am a natural spirit seer. I could always see and hear spirits even in my childhood. My HGA gave me a talisman to stop those visions of uninvited guests. I see them solid and vivid like I am seeing another person/animal/plant/etc.
Oh, that's cool. Say, do you have good physical eyesight? It just occurred to me that astral senses may correlate with our normal senses, somewhat. For instance, I have great hearing, and 'coincidentally' I have good clairaudience. But, my eyesight isn't good, just as my astral sight. Then again, this could be a coincidence.
No I can't live without my glasses. My eyesight is really bad. Actually most of the magicians, let's say 99%, haven't ever seen a spirit in a physical form in their lives. It is really really hard for spirits to have a form in our dimension. Don't believe everyone who claims to see them. Most of them saw shapes in a mirror, smoke, crystal, etc. Which is totally fine btw. If you follow a book, get all the equipments that is required by that book, and properly consecrate it, you can also see those visions and have successful evocations. Mastering "Ars Notoria" can be difficult but I know some people developed their sight training with Tattwa cards.
Ah, so it is a coincidence, then. It's interesting, what you've said about the visions magicians get. I am not sure if I agree because I have had some pretty vivid manifestations, visual and physical. When I say physical, I mean literally physical: the smoke taking a solid shape of a head, hair, body, features filled in with some kind of light. It doesn't happen as often as I would want it, but I think I know why. The visual manifestations that I get aren't really vivid as I pointed out.
See, that's the thing I would like to explore. WHY does the grimoire magic give such vivid manifestations as opposed to other methods? It's not the tools because tools vary from grimoire to grimoire. There's little consistency when it comes to the tools. Really, the only thing that are consistent are the general magical tools: the circle (the design varies from grimoire to grimoire), mirror or incense, parchment. The conjurations, the seals, the entire methodology aren't the same either. Just compare the method of the Lemegeton and the Grimorium verum, or Black Dragon methods.
So either it's the binding of the spirit in the operation or that spirits themselves are bound to the methodology of each grimoire, but the latter seems a bit unlikely to me.
No no I didn't mean it's a coincidence. In fact, in my early years, I asked the same OP question myself. "How do people see them? Do people see spirits as I do? Why do I need I a crystal, or a mirror, smoke, cloth? They don't even appear in them. They are just standing in front of me?" That's why I tried to find magicians and talked to them. The world didn't have google back then. Anyway, these were just answers I got from LOTS of magicians. Most of them didn't see spirits as I do. But it's fine. If it works, it works.
When it comes to tools, I agree with Dr. Skinner's view in here. He says magic was a technology but now it's broken. There are still things missing in that puzzle. I know some people did their first successful evocations when they have got their tools. So, I believe in tools. They gave you the authority over spirits. And I think it's fun to look like a king or trying to look like King Solomon. This last sentence reminds me a verse from Quran. Solomon died standing and leaning his wand but the spirits still working for him because they didn't know if he is dead or not. Until a wood worm ate his stick and he fall down. (Surah Saba 34:14).
Anyway it's cool to fake it. And In my humble opinion, if you are working with a grimoire it's necessary to have its required tools. I know some post-modern magicians, demonolaters, witches gets rid of some tools and trying to bring some new methods/interpretations in their books. But hey their house is burnt down like you said above right? *grins*
In short, I think tools are there in those old books for a reason.
Man, if I knew you in real life, I would probably bribe you into being my scryer for a bit haha.
Seriously, though, that's awesome that you can see spirits the way you do. I know that it's not the end all be all (some of my evocations yielded tremendous results without me seeing the spirit, but I felt and heard it).
Now, I disagree with you on the topic of tools because if you were to compare the old grimoires and manuscripts side by side, you would notice that their methodology and required tools are very different. Weyer's work for example purely relies on oration to summon a demon, in lieu of fancy tools.
I myself am very eclectic. My method is inspired by 2 particular grimoires but I take a more shamanic approach instead of an exorcist approach, not to mention that my approach could be deemed diabolical because I venerate (some) demons. Invoking Yahweh and the archangels to constrain them is not o.k. in my book. And it works.
Also, I need to correct you on something. The guy I mentioned above, whose house was burned down, was not a demonolator by any means. He is a Solomonic magician who did an evocation as instructed in the Lemegeton/Ars Goetia/Lesser Key of Solomon. Demonolators never experience things like that. Post-modernists, however, are either mentalists (talking to their own ego) or hosts for many astral parasites pretending to be something they're not.
The tools are there for a reason, yes, but they're not the end-all-be-all. Every grimoire is different, and requires different tools. This is a clear indication that there is no "One True Method."
For R.O., I didn't mean he was a demonolator. I know him personally, his ideas and methods on heptameron worked for him and others. If he could bind the spirit correctly, he wouldn't be in that kind of problem. Now he joined an order, and works by the book(s) and he is doing fine.
I am interested in your shamanic approach. What kind of method do you use? Is it because of your cultural background? And if yes, which background is it?