• Hi guest! As you can see, the new Wizard Forums has been revived, and we are glad to have you visiting our site! However, it would be really helpful, both to you and us, if you registered on our website! Registering allows you to see all posts, and make posts yourself, which would be great if you could share your knowledge and opinions with us! You could also make posts to ask questions!

DISCUSSION: Do Gods Need Us?

The God-King

The Mystical Rebel
Joined
Apr 20, 2021
Messages
162
Awards
7
I'd like to get everyone's stance on this so I'll expound further: do gods or any other spirit that receives worship or veneration need us to continue to worship and venerate them? Or can they survive and perhaps even thrive without us giving them energy?

Let's discuss!
 

Grundy

Apprentice
Joined
Apr 18, 2021
Messages
94
Awards
3
hmmm, I don't think its quite black and white but this is just my opinion.

I could imagine a egregore would need constant veneration, while a more ancient entity would need less. What I noticed in my practice is that ancient entities seem to care less about my own veneration and more about spreading the word or helping them with their machinations in what ever small form I can contribute through my pacts (sometimes in ways I don't understand either).

Some of the heavy hitters seem to have a surge of new followers anyway while some of them seem picky on who they choose as disciple or apprentice.
 

Mart

Chaos Alchemist
Archivist
Joined
Apr 20, 2021
Messages
322
Awards
8
hmmm, I don't think its quite black and white but this is just my opinion.

I could imagine a egregore would need constant veneration, while a more ancient entity would need less. What I noticed in my practice is that ancient entities seem to care less about my own veneration and more about spreading the word or helping them with their machinations in what ever small form I can contribute through my pacts (sometimes in ways I don't understand either).

Some of the heavy hitters seem to have a surge of new followers anyway while some of them seem picky on who they choose as disciple or apprentice.
I would agree, in my opinion spiritual beings need us (physical beings) as means for them to interact with the physical realm.
 

The God-King

The Mystical Rebel
Joined
Apr 20, 2021
Messages
162
Awards
7
hmmm, I don't think its quite black and white but this is just my opinion.

I could imagine a egregore would need constant veneration, while a more ancient entity would need less. What I noticed in my practice is that ancient entities seem to care less about my own veneration and more about spreading the word or helping them with their machinations in what ever small form I can contribute through my pacts (sometimes in ways I don't understand either).

Some of the heavy hitters seem to have a surge of new followers anyway while some of them seem picky on who they choose as disciple or apprentice.
So in your opinion, while an older spirit would need less veneration, it would still need it? Is that correct?
 

8Lou1

Zealot
Joined
Jun 30, 2021
Messages
144
Awards
2
@The God-King : before i delve into my experience with some spirits, can you explain to me what is worship and veneration and maybe an example of both.
1.english is not my first language and especially veneration is hard to translate into something that makes sense.
2. For me these 2 things were a very big hurdle to travel any path due to 'put no gods beside me' and also the 'no depiction' rule.
3. I kicked out some spirits years ago, due to asking me to revere/worship while i was totally not ready.(not a fun ride ie loosing money, getting sick, etc.) I might need to reconsile that, so proper understanding seems the path to go.
 

Grundy

Apprentice
Joined
Apr 18, 2021
Messages
94
Awards
3
So in your opinion, while an older spirit would need less veneration, it would still need it? Is that correct?
I wish I had a concrete and succinct answer to that hahaha. (personal opinion warning ahead as well as a wall of txt haha)

I do tend to see them as self actualized beings that exist in the same space we are in but are separate from us due to additional dimensions in the space that they occupy, that need interaction more than veneration (which is still a form of interaction). For this opinion to make sense I need to also explain the paradigm I am working with (again tinfoil opinion warning ahead)

My perspective on these entities is rooted in my layman's understanding of current theoretical quantum physics specifically the need for multiple dimensions to exist to make theoretical quantum physics gel with the theory of relativity and most other laws that apply to macro sized objects which we interact with. I do not mean dimensions as separate realms, I mean it as extra measurements needed (3 dimensions for us, 4 to 10 additional dimensions where these entities seem to exist.) While we all occupy the same physical space, we are separated from them in terms of physical distance, and other units of measurement of space/time that we are not biologically programed to even perceive let alone interact with.

So for example, an entity/diety can exist in a 4 dimensional space. They can see us, they can interact with our space, see our own time as a literal unit that measurable with a beginning and end, but we cant see them at all because the existence they operate in has more dimensional units than ours. (think the flatworld 2 dimensional example). The example in that thought exercise for a 3 dimensional being like us interacting with a 2 dimensional space and 2 dimensional beings would seem to also coincide with biblical stories of angels/Yahweh when they interact with our space, we cant see them as what they really are or look like, we only see how they affect our spacetime. Not going to go too in-depth here as this is already long and probably very insane sounding and i do not want to hijack a thread lol.

Back to the question, perhaps interaction is what these entities require from us in order to have some sort of sway in our 3 dimensional world. Whether its a goal they want to accomplish here, or even just to stay relevant in our world by means of veneration. A more ancient spirit, might need less worship as maybe they have other objectives that are different from a younger spirit.

again sorry for the tinfoil haha.
 

The God-King

The Mystical Rebel
Joined
Apr 20, 2021
Messages
162
Awards
7
@The God-King : before i delve into my experience with some spirits, can you explain to me what is worship and veneration and maybe an example of both.
1.english is not my first language and especially veneration is hard to translate into something that makes sense.
2. For me these 2 things were a very big hurdle to travel any path due to 'put no gods beside me' and also the 'no depiction' rule.
3. I kicked out some spirits years ago, due to asking me to revere/worship while i was totally not ready.(not a fun ride ie loosing money, getting sick, etc.) I might need to reconsile that, so proper understanding seems the path to go.
Hmmm......well I'm at work so I can't go into too deep since I'm on a work computer but I would say if you're familiar with Catholicism or Orthodox Christianity, take them as an example. They worship God but venerate the Saints. Worship is giving something glory or praise. Veneration is defined as a "deep respect". Veneration is generally done out of respect and tradition. While worship is done out of need, either on our end or the end of the gods. Either we need something from them so we worship them to get it or they request worship from us so they can gain power and in return, sometimes, give us stuff.
 

The God-King

The Mystical Rebel
Joined
Apr 20, 2021
Messages
162
Awards
7
I wish I had a concrete and succinct answer to that hahaha. (personal opinion warning ahead as well as a wall of txt haha)

I do tend to see them as self actualized beings that exist in the same space we are in but are separate from us due to additional dimensions in the space that they occupy, that need interaction more than veneration (which is still a form of interaction). For this opinion to make sense I need to also explain the paradigm I am working with (again tinfoil opinion warning ahead)

My perspective on these entities is rooted in my layman's understanding of current theoretical quantum physics specifically the need for multiple dimensions to exist to make theoretical quantum physics gel with the theory of relativity and most other laws that apply to macro sized objects which we interact with. I do not mean dimensions as separate realms, I mean it as extra measurements needed (3 dimensions for us, 4 to 10 additional dimensions where these entities seem to exist.) While we all occupy the same physical space, we are separated from them in terms of physical distance, and other units of measurement of space/time that we are not biologically programed to even perceive let alone interact with.

So for example, an entity/diety can exist in a 4 dimensional space. They can see us, they can interact with our space, see our own time as a literal unit that measurable with a beginning and end, but we cant see them at all because the existence they operate in has more dimensional units than ours. (think the flatworld 2 dimensional example). The example in that thought exercise for a 3 dimensional being like us interacting with a 2 dimensional space and 2 dimensional beings would seem to also coincide with biblical stories of angels/Yahweh when they interact with our space, we cant see them as what they really are or look like, we only see how they affect our spacetime. Not going to go too in-depth here as this is already long and probably very insane sounding and i do not want to hijack a thread lol.

Back to the question, perhaps interaction is what these entities require from us in order to have some sort of sway in our 3 dimensional world. Whether its a goal they want to accomplish here, or even just to stay relevant in our world by means of veneration. A more ancient spirit, might need less worship as maybe they have other objectives that are different from a younger spirit.

again sorry for the tinfoil haha.
You should start a thread on this. Would love to keep this discussion going.
 

Grundy

Apprentice
Joined
Apr 18, 2021
Messages
94
Awards
3
Hmmm......well I'm at work so I can't go into too deep since I'm on a work computer but I would say if you're familiar with Catholicism or Orthodox Christianity, take them as an example. They worship God but venerate the Saints. Worship is giving something glory or praise. Veneration is defined as a "deep respect". Veneration is generally done out of respect and tradition. While worship is done out of need, either on our end or the end of the gods. Either we need something from them so we worship them to get it or they request worship from us so they can gain power and in return, sometimes, give us stuff.
I see where you are coming from here. Looking back at how pantheons of the ancient world (greco-roman, south american, near east, and etc) there was a time when worship of those gods were at its prime and in terms of how those ancient people interacted with them, it makes it seem at least that these ancient Gods were able to impart blessings on their respective followers, whereas today that same position of blessing giver falls to the Judeo Christian God.

It does sort of explain a pseudo above so below war between entities in the sense that Goetic Entities are perceived by some as bastardized versions of ancient Gods (Astaroth being a debatable bastardized version of Inanna, Ishtar and so forth) In this scenario, perhaps the war amongst entities stems from who has the most worshippers >>> worshipers means more power??
 

Grundy

Apprentice
Joined
Apr 18, 2021
Messages
94
Awards
3
You should start a thread on this. Would love to keep this discussion going.
haha sure, I'll try to collect my thought and notes on this. It quite hard to wrap my head around but it has been in my mind for a long time now. I wish I was a genius level mathematician that can thoroughly explain this but I'll do my own laymans perspective when I get home from the office.
 

8Lou1

Zealot
Joined
Jun 30, 2021
Messages
144
Awards
2
Thank you the God-King that makes sense.
My upbringing in Christianity was orthodox reformed with no allowing of saints, let alone pictures, shrines offerings etc. Taking of the bread and wine for example was not done and seen as blasphemy. So it has taken me a while to come to terms with veneration.

For me, worship expresses itself by living as close to Truth as i possibly can. This is ever evolving and ive found that in order to get things moving, i need to be this way. When im not in line with this way of being i struggle with everything. So i need to worship. Since life still continues when im not inline, i have to say that the One i worship doesnt need it.

Veneration in terms of deep respect, makes sense and for me comes down to a conversation on energy level. Both me and the revered one(s) need it.

Veneration in the sense of external offerings, i still cant get my head around, so i dont do that. Other then when i give alms i also give to spirits of the place im at. ie, i leave food for them as well. To me this is more like a thank you after working together/they let me do my thing in their realm. Or is this what is ment by veneration???
 

Konsciencia

Neophyte
Joined
Jun 8, 2021
Messages
41
As the question goes, I show respect, Love, kindness, and Honor to the Divine Light, who I am very connected with. No matter what appearance She/He may take. In truth, The Universe does not really need us, but since we All are The Universe, The Divine Light shows us abundance of Love. Even though, The Universe can get carried away sometimes, but I love that about Him/Her. And one thing you have to remember is this, there is no such thing as, Gods or Goddesses losing or drained out of their Energy if we stop worshipping them. Based on my experiences, I never seen that happen before. There are some of us, who do not need to contact a Spiritual Guide to do what we need to do, but for me I know that it is way better to get full Access into those Dimensions if we ask for The Universe's Guidance, and it is way easier. I hope that this may help most of you All. May The Divine Light, The Ultimate Source, and The Supreme Consciousness bless you All in so many ways. I know that my Divine Light has blessed me so very much.
 

WalkerOfSorrow

Apprentice
Joined
Jun 29, 2021
Messages
90
Awards
2
I'd like to get everyone's stance on this so I'll expound further: do gods or any other spirit that receives worship or veneration need us to continue to worship and venerate them? Or can they survive and perhaps even thrive without us giving them energy?

Let's discuss!
Before I read everyone else's posts, I'm going to drop my own in here.

I have done a lot of semantical and philosophical work to develop a working common ground, for what a "god" is. What I found is that there are many fundamental differences in every religion. However, my best working definition for the word "god" is as follows:

A physical or spiritual entity which receives great dedicated respect from one or more people, typically believed to have some control over natural laws or objects, or the outcome of human events. In many cases, this god is believed to "deserve" this reverence, because of the inherent relationship between the entity and that attributed power. In many cases, this god is believed to be superior to their worshippers in many/all ways, especially in terms of knowledge, power, and/or moral high ground.

Or the short form, "A being who is greatly, personally respected for their nature/the power they are believed to possess."

I think the need for such worship on a physiological or ontological level depends on the creature. However, if going by my definition, a god is only a god to the extent that they are worshiped. If you don't worship it, it's not a god to you. If you don't worship any gods, then no being is a god to you. By that logic, they do "need" worship in order to be a god. Otherwise, they're just a spirit, or something else.

I have ABSOLUTELY seen multiple spirits, powerful ones, that thrive on absorbing the energy that humans willingly cast off. Energy delivered by the mechanism of worship. I've watched it happen myself.
 

WalkerOfSorrow

Apprentice
Joined
Jun 29, 2021
Messages
90
Awards
2
hmmm, I don't think its quite black and white but this is just my opinion.

I could imagine a egregore would need constant veneration, while a more ancient entity would need less. What I noticed in my practice is that ancient entities seem to care less about my own veneration and more about spreading the word or helping them with their machinations in what ever small form I can contribute through my pacts (sometimes in ways I don't understand either).

Some of the heavy hitters seem to have a surge of new followers anyway while some of them seem picky on who they choose as disciple or apprentice.
I'm very happy you brought up the Egregore. I'm fascinated with the concept, and would love to find a group I can trust that, one day, might be able to make one. I think Egregores could be useful for research purposes and other means if properly created.

To your actual point, I think there's little to distinguish an "ancient entity" from a newer Egregore. In fact, the time only means they have continued to exist. If the time has continued to ramp up the worship they receive, to the point that they are unstable and would fail without it, there could be a problem. If time has seen them run low and become a starving "ghost" (i.e. Preta, or preta-like), I've seen what that does. But yes, if they worked smart and used that energy to build up their power correctly over centuries or millennia, they may not need constant adulation. Though they will definitely crave it, from what I've seen.

Imagine if you will, a form of love, euphoria, and release that unmakes you. After experiencing a hit of this, just a taste, you are gone. You have no concept of right and wrong, no concept of past or future, no concept of active or inactive, waking or sleeping, pain or pleasure. All you know is that you have experienced something truly transcendent. Now you only feel like you're alive, like your world makes sense, while you are experiencing that all-surpassing harmony. I know, hard to really picture. But when a throng of humans treat you as superior, inherently, for generations...and supply you with sacrifices, praise, and the fates of their children, it is that kind of soul-shattering vibration to which you become addicted.

Sounds from what you wrote like you've met "sober" entities. Beings who have achieved this scale without losing themselves to a truly thunderous wavelength and frequency. Or who have recovered. Not beings to be taken lightly, for sure. If they are capable of that, I'd say whatever word they want spread, or deeds they want done, will happen whether you help them or not. Consciously, at least.
 

Grundy

Apprentice
Joined
Apr 18, 2021
Messages
94
Awards
3
I'm very happy you brought up the Egregore. I'm fascinated with the concept, and would love to find a group I can trust that, one day, might be able to make one. I think Egregores could be useful for research purposes and other means if properly created.

To your actual point, I think there's little to distinguish an "ancient entity" from a newer Egregore. In fact, the time only means they have continued to exist. If the time has continued to ramp up the worship they receive, to the point that they are unstable and would fail without it, there could be a problem. If time has seen them run low and become a starving "ghost" (i.e. Preta, or preta-like), I've seen what that does. But yes, if they worked smart and used that energy to build up their power correctly over centuries or millennia, they may not need constant adulation. Though they will definitely crave it, from what I've seen.

Imagine if you will, a form of love, euphoria, and release that unmakes you. After experiencing a hit of this, just a taste, you are gone. You have no concept of right and wrong, no concept of past or future, no concept of active or inactive, waking or sleeping, pain or pleasure. All you know is that you have experienced something truly transcendent. Now you only feel like you're alive, like your world makes sense, while you are experiencing that all-surpassing harmony. I know, hard to really picture. But when a throng of humans treat you as superior, inherently, for generations...and supply you with sacrifices, praise, and the fates of their children, it is that kind of soul-shattering vibration to which you become addicted.

Sounds from what you wrote like you've met "sober" entities. Beings who have achieved this scale without losing themselves to a truly thunderous wavelength and frequency. Or who have recovered. Not beings to be taken lightly, for sure. If they are capable of that, I'd say whatever word they want spread, or deeds they want done, will happen whether you help them or not. Consciously, at least.
haha I agree with your point. I meant newer as in a more recently discovered entity. I tend to view them as beings that operate outside our own time :)

Would you say that these deities are more amoral in nature?? Triggered by feedback they receive from people that worship and venerate then?
 

WalkerOfSorrow

Apprentice
Joined
Jun 29, 2021
Messages
90
Awards
2
haha I agree with your point. I meant newer as in a more recently discovered entity. I tend to view them as beings that operate outside our own time :)

Would you say that these deities are more amoral in nature?? Triggered by feedback they receive from people that worship and venerate then?
I don't think they subscribe to our sense of morality. But they are just as capable of morality in some form.
 

The God-King

The Mystical Rebel
Joined
Apr 20, 2021
Messages
162
Awards
7
Before I read everyone else's posts, I'm going to drop my own in here.

I have done a lot of semantical and philosophical work to develop a working common ground, for what a "god" is. What I found is that there are many fundamental differences in every religion. However, my best working definition for the word "god" is as follows:

A physical or spiritual entity which receives great dedicated respect from one or more people, typically believed to have some control over natural laws or objects, or the outcome of human events. In many cases, this god is believed to "deserve" this reverence, because of the inherent relationship between the entity and that attributed power. In many cases, this god is believed to be superior to their worshippers in many/all ways, especially in terms of knowledge, power, and/or moral high ground.

Or the short form, "A being who is greatly, personally respected for their nature/the power they are believed to possess."

I think the need for such worship on a physiological or ontological level depends on the creature. However, if going by my definition, a god is only a god to the extent that they are worshiped. If you don't worship it, it's not a god to you. If you don't worship any gods, then no being is a god to you. By that logic, they do "need" worship in order to be a god. Otherwise, they're just a spirit, or something else.

I have ABSOLUTELY seen multiple spirits, powerful ones, that thrive on absorbing the energy that humans willingly cast off. Energy delivered by the mechanism of worship. I've watched it happen myself.

Thank you for this. I would agree with this view for the most part. In your model, how does it view fictitious beings such as characters in tv/films, books, comics, etc? Would there be an ontological basis for, say, the fictitious deity Shehanine? If they receive enough respect or worship, could they be considered a legit deity and would they need this worship or respect to remain in this position? Love your posts around the fourm!
 
Top