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Do you think the magic needs philosophy?

Viktor

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I often wonder one thing, we all come out with various spiritual or magical experiences and knowledge which is either self-learned or learned from some sources or taught by somebody.
Everyone of us can share some of his cool stuff, but how many of you can support it philosophically?

There is a very close relationship between magic and religious spirituality, in that both deal with spiritual world or spirits, but one big difference between magic and religions is that religions are well-shod philosophically.
For ex. if you go ask some knowledgeable priest to support his God philosophically, he will have no problem with that, in fact there is no question of yours which could surprise him or catch him unprepared, up to the point where belief in God is absolutely not needed because all can be argumented by logic.
Take for ex. Anselm's ontological argument or Aristotel's argument for God, this is hard to refute logically.

However when it comes to magic, there is almost no philosophy to be found or heard, you can for sure find many sources but no arguments at all.
Of course there are some philosophical books about magic such as "Three Books of Occult Philosophy" but these are several centuries old, there is nothing modern to be found.
This made me wonder, does magic need philosophy?

Of course major reason perhaps why philosophy in magic is undeveloped is because there is no central body and no funding like in organized religions.
Another issue is probably lack of interest or many kinds of magic and rituals.

So, do you think magic needs philosophy and what could be done about that?
 

SkullTraill

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The way I see it, Philosophy is a framework for human thought. Magick is just some unseen/unknowable facet of the natural universe. Both can exist independently.

Just like a God either exists or does not, just like the sun, stars, planets, galaxies, fundamental forces of the universe simply exist whether or not someone philosophizes about them, so too does magick, in my view.
 

KjEno186

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Of course there are some philosophical books about magic such as "Three Books of Occult Philosophy" but these are several centuries old, there is nothing modern to be found.
Are you sure about that??? Are you saying that Éliphas Lévi and Dion Fortune don't count? If those are too difficult, then John Michael Greer will practically spoon feed
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if you go ask some knowledgeable priest to support his God philosophically, he will have no problem with that, in fact there is no question of yours which could surprise him or catch him unprepared, up to the point where belief in God is absolutely not needed because all can be argumented by logic.
Without a doubt, logically Ganesha.

Ganesh-Symbolism.jpg


Take for ex. Anselm's ontological argument or Aristotel's argument for God, this is hard to refute logically.
And yet there are no shortage of words expressing contrary ideas such as...

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Note, I have not read any of these and do not intend to debate the existence of a supreme deity. I consider myself agnostic until such a time as my own Holy Daimon/HGA gives me specific guidance towards a particular deity.

Of course major reason perhaps why philosophy in magic is undeveloped is because there is no central body and no funding like in organized religions.
Or maybe this is by design, that religion is not like magick. Here's a quote by Alan Chapman from his book, Advanced Magick for Beginners:

"In terms of Christianity, faith is simply the decision to have no experience of God. (Hebrews 11:1) When we practice magick with a spirit, even in the absence of any physical indication of its presence, our faith is the decision to interact with that entity.
"So why on earth would a Christian/Jew/Muslim choose to have no experience of his or her God? Well, there is a certain amount of coercion from the governing bodies: as long as we remain in a state of desire when we petition God, we won't face eternal damnation in the afterlife.​
"If we look at the monotheistic system as a whole, we can see that it is based on keeping the devotee in a state of desire permanently. It is not your place to demand anything from God, so you must hope; the benefit of devotion is promised at the end of your earthly existence, so you must remain in a state of desire.​
"Desire is a magical act that leads nowhere. Desire is a prison.​
"Any other magical act necessitates a move away from desire, and is therefore a move towards freedom.​
"The Church has been very sneaky, using magick to render its members permanently ineffectual, whilst denying or damning the very thing that keeps them in that state. Which begs the question—did the creators of these religions (and by this I don't mean Christ, Moses or Mohammed) know what they were doing?"​
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So, do you think magic needs philosophy and what could be done about that?
Of course! In fact, I believe that failure to understand occult philosophy and attempting to practice magic is dangerous, rather like driving a car while wearing a blindfold. Perhaps I should ask, what exactly do you think is missing from occult philosophy?
 

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if you go ask some knowledgeable priest to support his God philosophically, he will have no problem with that, in fact there is no question of yours which could surprise him or catch him unprepared,
I was educated by priests. When they were asked a question that was too difficult they said: It is a Mystery.

Magic on the other hand is a practice with observation, theories, experiments and results - very much parallel to materialistic science.

It could be that successful magicians do have philosophies. Some have a philosophy based on accruing power to their personalities. Others have philosophies based on galaxies being the manifested bodies of conscious entities.
 

Viktor

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Without a doubt, logically Ganesha.
I see this image as deciphering of symbolism, which can help to come out with some philosophical conclusions, but on it's own it's insufficient.

Are you sure about that??? Are you saying that Éliphas Lévi and Dion Fortune don't count? If those are too difficult, then John Michael Greer will practically spoon feed
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This book is titled as "philosophy" but description seems to be about something else:

it is instead a stimulating and well-crafted raw material for occult studies and readers are encouraged to read the 52 lessons across an entire year.
The Occult Philosophy Workbook is a must-have introduction to the concepts and teachings of contemporary Western occultism and can be read as an accompaniment to Greer's previous book

Dion Fortune's books are likewise some kind of instructions, at least so it appears by reading descriptions from amazoon:
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Perhaps I should ask, what exactly do you think is missing from occult philosophy?
It seems we don't have same view on philosophy or expectations from philosophy.
What I expect from philosophy in regard to occult is to approach things on fundamental level rather than on high level.

ex. if some book talks about certain things as "how" something is done or "when" it is done, then that's not philosophical approach, philosophical approach would be "why" this or that is done, for what "purpose" it's done, and similar.
Also philosophical approach would more about theory or development of a theory rather than practice and practical issues, also it would be classifications of the occult and general explanations rather than immediate effect of focusing on specifics.

In other words, it explains things more by logic rather than in teacher's way.
I hope I explained this well with these general examples.

I was educated by priests. When they were asked a question that was too difficult they said: It is a Mystery.
That's nothing new, I find online discussions about difficult things much more useful since you give the other person some time to investigate things and give better response.

ex. I once had a difficult question regarding old testament eschatology, which almost no priest would be able to answer, then I found a professor of scriptures willing to talk online and directed the question toward him, and the answer was very useful because google searching gave nothing easy to grasp.

Magic on the other hand is a practice with observation, theories, experiments and results - very much parallel to materialistic science.
That's exactly what I expected for philosophy of the occult, theory and logic over practice.

It could be that successful magicians do have philosophies. Some have a philosophy based on accruing power to their personalities. Others have philosophies based on galaxies being the manifested bodies of conscious entities.
I don't doubt there are those who learn things more deeply, in fact I believe the best mage is the one able to theorize and also able to put theory into practice with success.

After all no occult knowledge come from nothing, somebody worked hard, things got passed from generation to generation and with time things did change or got obsolete as well as new things come to be which requires somebody to question and theorize just like with anything else.

The way I see it, Philosophy is a framework for human thought. Magick is just some unseen/unknowable facet of the natural universe. Both can exist independently.

Just like a God either exists or does not, just like the sun, stars, planets, galaxies, fundamental forces of the universe simply exist whether or not someone philosophizes about them, so too does magick, in my view.
We can also say that the difference is like the difference between theory and practice, if one exists (magic) then theory (philosophy) is not necessary.
However, theory can help to understand why certain things exist.

One can say, I have a car and all that I care is to get from point A to point B with that car, that's why I bought the car.
But if you ask that person, how car was made and why it has 4 wheels rather than just 3, then she\he may tell you, well that's philosophy which doesn't serve the primary purpose of my car :)
 

8Lou1

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I read OP's question yesterday and it reminded me of how i sometimes would get lost in concepts. The word philosophy had no personal meaning to me due to it other then a remembrance of a lot of talk and people running away.

Back then everyone i came in contact with was closing their gates on me, this time i closed the gates on them, stuffed my ears and walked on heartflow for 10 years. I left a message online for myself so i could at least find me back and hopefully the rest of my path and strangely it is the case.

Im over the fact now that what was normal for me others would give strange names, like magick or vampire or even wyrder shit like conspiracy or impossible, but in essence when i bring someone home and i show them around first so they can pick their new home, then thats what im doing. No philosophical way is going to stop me, what it does however is sprinkle syncs and spirits and events into my world that guide.

Right now im not yet really in the mood so the guide feels like a pusher, but i know im a mechanic who likes to drive a bmw in the fast lane. And im also one who has a tiny bit of a problem when others want to drive her car. 😉
 

Jk666

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We can also say that the difference is like the difference between theory and practice, if one exists (magic) then theory (philosophy) is not necessary.
However, theory can help to understand why certain things exist.

One can say, I have a car and all that I care is to get from point A to point B with that car, that's why I bought the car.
But if you ask that person, how car was made and why it has 4 wheels rather than just 3, then she\he may tell you, well that's philosophy which doesn't serve the primary purpose of my car :)
You need philosophy to live, to wake in the morning. Nothing can be purely functional.

mom a chaos magician, but still need to know how everything works behind the scenes.

Doing more effective magic requires you to be more present more aware of what’s going around you, that’s philosophy. It’s not just all trial-and-error.
 

Viktor

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@8Lou1
Getting lost in concepts is probably not the worst thing, some people might see concepts or philosophy as revealing too much, telling things which ruin the pleasure of magic, but I'm of different opinion, I think by grasping the inner workings of magic one can become a better mage and be ahead of well known.

of course people who just insult vampirism or magical works are just not worth to debate with, no matter what you do their opinion or understanding won't change.

Doing more effective magic requires you to be more present more aware of what’s going around you, that’s philosophy.
agree, knowing your surroundings helps a lot for both defense and offense, I call this "intelligence" or having access to information which can help to shape your surroundings, predict possibilities and make better decisions.
having information is powerful.
 

8Lou1

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Thats why Datamining is fun. 😁
In all actuality, i have been busy with addictive online activities and spiritual vampiric connections. Either i/ you created a freaking beauty of a sync or you are the connection. Either way, would you be so kind to stop listening to the old me, its physically hurting. Somehow it feels like i have a stinger in my bellybutton area, while it should be a realignment of truth where we kill the baby, not freaking give it to the mercifull one. We are doing second birth NOT reincarnation.

Concerning concepts: the problem was more in the sense that i was still in the women dont read area and had to deal with bilangual translations at home and a diversity of languages and cultures in my study at the same time. While researching the occult online was still the wild wild west. I miss those days.

I gave a course at home in what vampirism means to me and also sent them on an oldschool road where they might be able to regrow what was almost lost. In my whole 50 years on earth ive met only 3 people who gave the proper respect and i think 2 others who vaguely remembered and where willing to let it grow.
 

Jk666

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agree, knowing your surroundings helps a lot for both defense and offense, I call this "intelligence" or having access to information which can help to shape your surroundings, predict possibilities and make better decisions.
having information is powerful.
But, being able to understand your blind spots is even more important.
 

KjEno186

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It seems we don't have same view on philosophy or expectations from philosophy.
What I expect from philosophy in regard to occult is to approach things on fundamental level rather than on high level.
Have you read The Cosmic Doctrine by Dion Fortune? A quote from Chapter I: "In these occult teachings you will be given certain images, under which you are instructed to think of certain things. These images are not descriptive but symbolic, and are designed to train the mind, not to inform it."

Dion Fortune's The Mystical Qabbalah is also highly recommended reading. These are not "how to" books on magick, aka grimoires. Then there are the Chaos magicians who attempted to explain the occult using theoretical physics. Ray Sherwin, Phil Hine, and Peter Carroll wrote extensively on that. Chaos was probably a poor choice of words since the concepts rely on probabilities, not destruction. The potential outcomes appear chaotic to the observer who cannot account for every influence in a system. Again, I oversimplify and probably portray Chaos magick 'philosophy' inaccurately, but language is often imprecise that way. And we haven't even looked at Jung and a whole host of others. There is no unity in religion, so why would there be unity in the occult?
 

8Lou1

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The joy of calvinism is at the same time its disgusting torture. Coming from the same source they all found different meaning in words and went to war for it and found a god that tells them to find mutual ground and discuss properly towards source in decency as we all have our crosses to carry. I find it a joy when people are able to discuss like that. The people themselves however give me the shivers as i know we dont talk about the same thing anymore.

In the occult in my experience going full 100% community like what monotheism does, has more to do with spiritual alignments, nonhuman beings and energies that combine in a different sense then humans.

I for example was looking at why i feel hesitation towards you and found you are an atheist. I have totally no problem with that paradigm, still i feel a bit wyrd. I know my own intent on wf is to help bring the site back up and i know some member of wf is being helped by dantalion who likes community. So here we are 3 beings looking at each others paradigm and with the PHILOSOPHY that love conquers all.

Please scroll down and understand how this site is creating unity tru our subconscious minds.
 

Jk666

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@Viktor we need to develop our own philosophy to advance the mind.

Because a person with a broken mind is crazy & cannot function as simple as that.
 

Viktor

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I gave a course at home in what vampirism means to me and also sent them on an oldschool road where they might be able to regrow what was almost lost. In my whole 50 years on earth ive met only 3 people who gave the proper respect and i think 2 others who vaguely remembered and where willing to let it grow.
I'm not surprised by that, it's certainly very difficult to find vampires out there, sometimes I feel like lonely wolf howling at full moon rather than being a vampire.
But even if you find some vampires, another problem which arises is that there are different perceptions of what vampirism is, so you might as well find wrong people.
But being alone with no one to share experience with is the worst, there are some online communities, but these are too inactive for my sense, often appending too much magic to vampirism while in fact I don't think vampirism has much to do with magic.

Have you read The Cosmic Doctrine by Dion Fortune? A quote from Chapter I: "In these occult teachings you will be given certain images, under which you are instructed to think of certain things. These images are not descriptive but symbolic, and are designed to train the mind, not to inform it."
This sounds very interesting, no I didn't read it but I might now that you shared this quote, it's difficult to find such books since the title doesn't match with what one wishes to hear.

Then there are the Chaos magicians who attempted to explain the occult using theoretical physics. Ray Sherwin, Phil Hine, and Peter Carroll wrote extensively on that. Chaos was probably a poor choice of words since the concepts rely on probabilities, not destruction. The potential outcomes appear chaotic to the observer who cannot account for every influence in a system.
I'm aware of
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but how this could be applied to magic is beyond my imagination, my definition of chaos in magic is unrelated to this theory, but I might check it out, out of interest.

There is no unity in religion, so why would there be unity in the occult?
I didn't mean to assume that purpose of philosophy would be unity or forced opinion, but more about and apologetics and serving as a starting point to theorize.
Unity I think is very unlikely when it comes to magic.
 

stalkinghyena

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Just throwing a few of my pennies into the pot. Kronos is sure to punish me...

Magic may not necessarily need philosophy, but magic can and often does use philosophy. It also uses science and religion and art as a means of attaining its end. It is an art of utility. If you wish to strip it down of all it’s glitter, simply say “I will it thus, and it is so.”

But Nietzsche might yawn in his straitjacket and tell you as he told a friend, “Wishing won’t make it so.”

So now the sorcerer must read Nietzsche, ask why the fuck he said it, and then test him, or whoever. But to do that one must become a mule laden with books and cross the desert of knowledge. And then he has to face that Dragon in the Desert, covered in scales that proclaim, “Thou shalt…”

CHORONZON does not weep, but he feeds on tears!

Phil Hine called books a magician’s bête noir. Hmm, perhaps this is a call to emulate Bill Murray to burn his books on the Tibetan mountain to stay warm. He’s balanced on that Zen razor, so he don’t need nothing.

Kant said you could be a wise man and never leave the house. The wizard could test this and find restlessness and boredom can become the most horrid of spiritual trials. Perhaps he can make the world come to him, but he might need to translate (or conjure) the old “Thing in Itself” into a daimon that informs him how. He might need justification, a crutch on which so many magicians find themselves having to lean in the face of a world of hostile and frigid intellects bound to mores that constrict and confine. Philosophy can inform one how to act, even call to action, but its visions are nothing without action. Once applied, they are no longer speculation, the words of philosophers become spells – thus, “Every intentional act is a magical act.”

But then there is the question of whether or not magic has a philosophy built into it. JG Frazer called it “proto-science, proto-religion”, as if the early “unsophisticated bumblings” of shamans in nature were merely there to set the stage for a more graceful evolution of the grand wakefulness of rational civilization. Fritz Graf tried to counter this long held working theory by inspecting classical civilization and pointing out that magic was often more like a shadowy twin of established religions. Magic wasn’t some rustic starting point, but a very living and vibrant underground world developing in its own right. While the polis worshipped in daylight and sacrificed to the gods to hold off plague, war, fire and famine, the magician whispered to those same gods at night to get a rich wife or win a horse race. How selfish! This could be a threat to social order and stoke paranoia.

Socrates would have to explain himself before the polis that he was not a polluter of the minds of youth but just a guy asking questions. His judges had already decided that his sophistry was an act of sorcery to seduce pretty boys and pervert the rule of their law. He was a hypnotist. He said he had a daimon that informed him and told him what not to do, and conventional modernist thinking may say he merely meant he had a conscience. But the magoi, lurking in the audience perhaps, looking out for his pretty rich wife-to-be to to make his “bound prisoner” for, or contemplating a door to door exorcism business, may have listened to Socrates and secretly thought, “I have a daimon too and it’s telling me what is possible and that I must dare to do it. I like your style though, old man. Maybe I can steal it from you. Ask some leading questions and hypnotize some screwballs into getting what I want. They’ll call me a trickster if I get caught, but I could get revenge by starting a religion. Enjoy your hemlock!”

Such precedent of hemlock drinking, unfortunately, would prove dry kindling for green wood for many future explorers. The Protestant English would determine ropes are much more economical for silencing big mouths, and they could stick it to the Catholics to boot!

If you want something new, you merely have to look around and you will find magicians constantly trying to reformulate “magical philosophy” before getting onto the exercises and such. Maybe its a bad habit, or maybe, as Charles Fort observed of all writers, they are simply apologizing before they get to the nitty-gritty.

Do I need to be a philosopher to conjure a spirit? Not really, but understanding Plato’s Theory of Forms and its relations to various later Neoplatonic, Gnostic and Hermetic reasonings might inform and even inspire my imagination. Working from the butthole end, Aristotle can at least teach me to pay attention to details – either way, I can conjure an excuse!

Theology can teach me about the serpent eating its tail – I am damned and saved by the same things, depending on who and how I read and who I preached to about it! Following Jaques Derrida in his ramblings upon “text” might teach me an effective means of “banishing” all the above via deconstruction, or, at the very least, I have an entry into hermeneutics.

I thought existentialists were sexy at first, but all I ended up doing was realized I was on the road to some sterilized Buddhism. The light bulb moment for me was when I realized that philosophy was my tool, my bitch, and my sacrificial offering. “Nothing is true, all is permitted!” the Assassin was said to have said. Magic itself, as a daimon, loves and craves knowledge in the head it possesses, in any form. The switch was hit in my mind by none other than our patron god of magic, lover of books and big mouths and sneaks alike, of whom Orpheus sang,

With winged feet, tis thine through air to course,”

Who lights upon the Pythagorean inspired “lover of knowledge”:

Oh friend of man and prophet of discourse,”

And gives warning in instruction,

Dire weapon of the tongue, which men revere…” (or not, as the case may be, is hinted)

And also teaches purpose in the hidden dragon fight which is the Science and Art of Causing Change to Occur in Conformity with the Will:

Whose powerful arts could watchful Argus kill.”

Other than that, all I got to say is eat your veggies and read Agrippa. He explains everything in the very last paragraph of Book III. Best place to start. I know, with all the wives tales and parables, metaphors analogies and apparently outdated principles, the Three Books are a Sphinx that strangles while it teaches. But if you “illuminate the eyes” as a Rabbi once said, then it’s trilithium for your warp drive, always regenerating to get you somewhere where maybe no one has gone before.

If one ever needs a helping hand, listen to Levi: “The visible reveals the invisible.”

It’s how we found black holes after dreaming about them first.
 
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8Lou1

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I dont often gamble, but when i asked almighty google what i am, the answer became vampire. Would i have grown up learning and reading arabic i would have a different google and a different outcome. So i calculated my life and after removing the error from excel, i became an islamic nexion with spiritual interests and i found my roots back, which is nice.

That is magick.

If you would be able to follow my train of thought during the creation, just before the fall, youd see it is chaos snake styling tru the matrix.

That is vampirism.
 

Viktor

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But then there is the question of whether or not magic has a philosophy built into it. JG Frazer called it “proto-science, proto-religion”, as if the early “unsophisticated bumblings” of shamans in nature were merely there to set the stage for a more graceful evolution of the grand wakefulness of rational civilization. Fritz Graf tried to counter this long held working theory by inspecting classical civilization and pointing out that magic was often more like a shadowy twin of established religions. Magic wasn’t some rustic starting point, but a very living and vibrant underground world developing in its own right. While the polis worshipped in daylight and sacrificed to the gods to hold off plague, war, fire and famine, the magician whispered to those same gods at night to get a rich wife or win a horse race. How selfish! This could be a threat to social order and stoke paranoia.
This is an interesting dilemma similar to an egg and chicken story, or which one come first?

There is a book called "Grimoires a history of magic books", it deals with history of magic and worship and how things evolved over time, it mentions shamanism as one of the earliest known worship of spiritual realm, so one might conclude that shamanism predates organized religions.

However some other authors say that magic come to be as a byproduct of organized religions, so it's difficult to say which one come first.
It's possible that historically, talking with spirits was actually something that is neither religion nor magic, but a starting point for both, but still difficult to say when and how exactly there was a split between the two.

In regard to topic, obviously one path of spirituality embraced philosophy, while the other was pushed away and seen as an enemy, suppressed over time which didn't become part of philosophical thought, probably due to unpopularity or secrecy.
 

Mider2009

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i think over the years the occult magic, myth, religion gets watered down and becomes stories

in my studies angels are more evolved beings. Fairies, big foot, etc are nothing more then inner earth beings, inner earth is nothing more then another dimensional being

when these higher evolved beings came and come into contact with humans we wrote stories about gods and goddesses when all they are is another race of higher beings or beings that live alongside us.

psychology when applied properly can reveal a lot about the occult, Chokmah being the lightbulb going off in our heads, Binah being book Smarts, etc etc etc
 

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In regard to topic, obviously one path of spirituality embraced philosophy, while the other was pushed away and seen as an enemy, suppressed over time which didn't become part of philosophical thought, probably due to unpopularity or secrecy.
I think people are scared of any spirituality dealing with death: shamanism or that’s predatory: vampirism.

People are scared of things they don’t understand.
 

Roma

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in my studies angels are more evolved beings. Fairies, big foot, etc are nothing more then inner earth beings, inner earth is nothing more then another dimensional being
It seems that your reality is much simpler than what I experience
 
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