Order of the elements

[Yazata]

I have seen it mentioned a couple of times that Crowley changed the order of the elements (or something..) in his tarot where Swords are assigned to the element of Air, and Wands to the element of Fire, as opposed to the Rider-Waite tarot.

Having read Waite's “Book of Black Magic” I highly doubt that Crowley is the one who changed anything.

When you see that Waite depicts Belial's seal upside down, rotates the seal of Murmur 90 degrees, the triangle 90 degrees counter clockwise and gives the same image for talisman 1 and 16 of the Black Pullet, I think it's more likely that he is the one who changed something. For whatever reason.

What do you think, did Crowley change it or Waite? Or is something else meant when someone claims Crowley changed the order of the elements?

 

[SkullTraill]

I think there is certainly history of the sword, wand, cup and shield changing. I even read about it in the new book I shared (Magical Knowledge Trilogy).

 

[Yazata]

Yeah, I know. There's reasoning to say that the wand as fire is representative of the phallus and generative power as opposed to the cup.
Another view is that the sword is forged in fire and represents the fierceness of battle and fire.
I was just wondering if people agree with either view. For me the wand is fire and paired with the cup as symbolizing genitalia, and the dagger with the pentacle as representing either sword and shield or plate and knife.

 

[SkullTraill]

Yeah, I know. There's reasoning to say that the wand as fire is representative of the phallus and generative power as opposed to the cup.
Another view is that the sword is forged in fire and represents the fierceness of battle and fire.
I was just wondering if people agree with either view. For me the wand is fire and paired with the cup as symbolizing genitalia, and the dagger with the pentacle as representing either sword and shield or plate and knife.

Ah right, I'm certainly not practiced enough in ritual magick to be having a strong opinion, let alone assert it publicly.

 

[Incognitus]

Yeah, I know. There's reasoning to say that the wand as fire is representative of the phallus and generative power as opposed to the cup.
Another view is that the sword is forged in fire and represents the fierceness of battle and fire.
I was just wondering if people agree with either view. For me the wand is fire and paired with the cup as symbolizing genitalia, and the dagger with the pentacle as representing either sword and shield or plate and knife.

I'm not sure about the Crowley vs Waite question, but generally wand is fire and masculine and cup is air and feminine. Dagger also represents air and in a lot of ritual the dagger and sword are interchangeable. YMMV.

 

[Yazata]

I'm not sure about the Crowley vs Waite question, but generally wand is fire and masculine and cup is air and feminine. Dagger also represents air and in a lot of ritual the dagger and sword are interchangeable. YMMV.

Did you make a typo when you said cup is air? I never heard that.

 

[soraoftherosycross]

I read the Pictorial Key to the Tarot and I do not recall Waite assigning the suits to any elements. However, the order was changed by Wicca. Old magical traditions used the same order as Wicca according to some reports, but the Wands-Fire and Swords-Air was definitely used by Golden Dawn. I do not think Crowley or Waite changed it seeing that both of them (at least Crowley in his older works, since I have not read much of his newer ones) were very opposed to the uninitiated grasping occult knowledge, since they would misunderstand or grossly misinterpret it into their own misery Nimrod-style.
+ Should add that a lot of Tarot websites are filled with misinformation and pretty much adulterate/pillage or even ignore the occult philosophy behind the cards. "The Empress" and "The Emperor" are actually very empty cards which exclusively relate to the material world. Waite stated that they are not good for fortune telling which differs from divination (even though both access information beyond the scopes of the logical mind)... do you really think the divine are asking questions like "IS THE GAY GUY/GUY MARRIED WITH CHILDREN WHO FILED A RESTRAINING ORDER AGAINST ME MY TWIN FLAME BECAUSE HE LOOKED AT ME FOR 0.001 SECONDS?" (no offense to those who believe in twin flames)

 

[Yazata]

I read the Pictorial Key to the Tarot and I do not recall Waite assigning the suits to any elements. However, the order was changed by Wicca. Old magical traditions used the same order as Wicca according to some reports, but the Wands-Fire and Swords-Air was definitely used by Golden Dawn. I do not think Crowley or Waite changed it seeing that both of them (at least Crowley in his older works, since I have not read much of his newer ones) were very opposed to the uninitiated grasping occult knowledge, since they would misunderstand or grossly misinterpret it into their own misery Nimrod-style.
+ Should add that a lot of Tarot websites are filled with misinformation and pretty much adulterate/pillage or even ignore the occult philosophy behind the cards. "The Empress" and "The Emperor" are actually very empty cards which exclusively relate to the material world. Waite stated that they are not good for fortune telling which differs from divination (even though both access information beyond the scopes of the logical mind)... do you really think the divine are asking questions like "IS THE GAY GUY/GUY MARRIED WITH CHILDREN WHO FILED A RESTRAINING ORDER AGAINST ME MY TWIN FLAME BECAUSE HE LOOKED AT ME FOR 0.001 SECONDS?" (no offense to those who believe in twin flames)

Maybe I have thrown together two separate things in my mind:

The difference between the court cards in the Crowley deck vs Waite. Where the Knight is replacing the King in the Thoth deck.
And the difference in the elemental weapons assigned to Fire and Air by different people.

I have not read that book of Waite.

No experience with twinflames