ordo templi orientis

[Borealis]

Anybody's got any direct or indirect experience with it?

 

[Firetree]

Lots of people .

In USA alone in 2014 , 1500+ members and its been growing ever since .

 

[Borealis]

it's implied the question doesn't only ask for yes or no but a bit of explaining from everyone who wishes to reply...

 

[Beyond Everything]

I could comment but I have elsewhere regarding the bs of the highest degrees.

Here's some commentary regarding more mundane matters

Link removed

 

[Firetree]

it's implied the question doesn't only ask for yes or no but a bit of explaining from everyone who wishes to reply...

what type of 'explaining' do you want ?

Do you realise there are threads here currently discussing this subject ?

 

[Janus]

Yes, there are two orders going under the name O.T.O., the first is the Typhonian OTO that was headed by the late Kenneth Grant who stayed with Crowley and learnt magick from , and then there is the Caliphate OTO. I have had experience with both years ago, the Typhonian OTO does not confer grades or charge money, they have a degree structure which once a member, you can work through. The Caliphate OTO charges money for the conferring of degrees, with yearly subs to be paid, and the cost of each degree and subs goes up and up as you take the grades.

​

 

[El Pepe]

Anybody's got any direct or indirect experience with it?

Don't get involved. It's not worth it; you'll have to deal with a bunch of jerks who think they're the best. They play at magic but only perform rituals, repress, oppress, and watch you on social media. I suggest reading and absorbing the teachings of the rituals to have a Thelemic education in society. Not that you have to repeat the teachings 1000 times. Save your money, mental health, and time.

Post automatically merged: Feb 25, 2026

Don't get involved. It's not worth it; you'll have to deal with a bunch of jerks who think they're the best. They play at magic but only perform rituals, repress, oppress, and watch you on social media. I suggest reading and absorbing the teachings of the rituals to have a Thelemic education in society. Not that you have to repeat the teachings 1000 times. Save your money, mental health, and time.

perform masses***

Post automatically merged: Feb 25, 2026

Furthermore, if you want to learn more about mayoral sex, look for content from Black Flag and Naughty Nun Productions. This is the profile of the person responsible for disseminating the information in 2004; I've already shared a list with some files here and intend to publish more. This is his profile:

Please, Log in or Register to view URLs content!

Post automatically merged: Feb 25, 2026

sex magick***

Post automatically merged: Feb 25, 2026

Most of his content is showed at this post:

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It been months i am trying to contact him but he does not reply

 

[MorganBlack]

Heh. The OTO. Well, in my experience it's a mixed bag of nuts, fruit cakes, and some of the most wonderful sincere magicians anywhere. A lot of very cool magicians cut their teeth there. You will meet some of the most excellent magicians - and also some of the biggest loony-tune, dead-guru worshiping fruit bats in the entire multiverse.

In the 1990s, I met some of the most wonderful people at the local body I joined. There was enough of the earlier experimental order left, before the 'pagan church ladies' took over, and I had to leave and get some fresh air.

I learned from the KEW that initiated me that the OTO is not a magical order. It's a fraternal order. And from what I've seen recently, more a swingers' club with occult trappings.

The system is terrible magic and you need to add , imho, either Goetia and/or Neville Goddardian New Thought to make it work. The Crowley-verse is pieced together from enough classic western mysticism to make it a good introduction to just about anywhere you want to go. And you should. Just watch out for all the uptak of "sex magic - and all that skeezy Victorian Tantra the smear over eveything in sight. People who stay there to long, something just ain't right with them kids.

I think the original idea was you are supposed to graduate, move on, and make a magical system / understanding of your own.

 

[Firetree]

Heh. The OTO. Well, in my experience it's a mixed bag of nuts, fruit cakes, and some of the most wonderful sincere magicians anywhere. A lot of very cool magicians cut their teeth there. You will meet some of the most excellent magicians - and also some of the biggest loony-tune, dead-guru worshiping fruit bats in the entire multiverse.

... you have a certain flair for 'distinction of words ' .

Your descriptive comment reminded me of a joke ;

Spoiler

I love going to them CWA * bake off competitions ....

( * CWA - Country Women's Association - an 'old school' , 'farmers wives ' association where they practice ' women's crafts ' and other things .... where the would be matriarchs of rural , non- alternative , red neck Aussie culture congregate )

After the judging and awards ... there are all these old , left over , tarts and fruit cakes ......

... that will let you eat the remaining goodies .

In the 1990s, I met some of the most wonderful people at the local body I joined. There was enough of the earlier experimental order left, before the 'pagan church ladies' took over, and I had to leave and get some fresh air.

Pagan Church Ladies ? ! ... ( What ? The PCWA - Pagan Church Womens Association ; ... would you like some strawberry jam and cream on your Cakes of Light , dear ?

( sorry - bad 'sex magick' joke there )

I learned from the KEW that initiated me that the OTO is not a magical order. It's a fraternal order. And from what I've seen recently, more a swingers' club with occult trappings.

What a strange thing for a KEW to say . And an even stranger thing for a 2 or 3 degree

The system is terrible magic and you need to add , imho, either Goetia and/or Neville Goddardian New Thought to make it work. The Crowley-verse is pieced together from enough classic western mysticism to make it a good introduction to just about anywhere you want to go. And you should. Just watch out for all the uptak of "sex magic - and all that skeezy Victorian Tantra the smear over eveything in sight. People who stay there to long, something just ain't right with them kids.

I think the original idea was you are supposed to graduate, move on, and make a magical system / understanding of your own.

Yeah ... around or at actually 5th degree , after that its very much admin and organisational work ( with 'trappings ' ) ... I hate that stuff !
( yet three times I have been drawn into it , for some reason , being on a board in disarray , being elected chair or equivalent , having to implement sensible and practical meeting procedures and consultation processes ... Y U K ! - retired from that now . )

OTO ; We encourage you to go on ... there is a lot of paperwork and administrating issues that need sorting out .

- Errrmmmm ... My time here is finished now ... and now, I go off to greater things ! ( for myself ) ;

'' Hi-Ho Silver , and away ! ''

( ... you are probably too young to remember that )

 

[Frater R.P.G.]

I'm not a member, but I know some people that are/used to be members. Most members appear to be there for the social aspect, but there are few decent magicians there as well.

 

[MorganBlack]

If it still has a glimmer of what it was, I do encourage people to join. Odds are you will meet one or more people who will become life-long friends. And who can ask for more than that? Just watch out for the, uh, Over-Indexed.

 

[Borealis]

I think members are mostly on the nutty side, maybe it is not so but I have that impression, it'd be an interesting experience to join but I don't think I'll ever try, does it cost anything?

 

[Firetree]

I think members are mostly on the nutty side, maybe it is not so but I have that impression,

What gave you that impression ?

I am also curious to know what 'on the nutty side' means . I suppose so , generally , as anyone into magic might be considered 'nutty ' ... especially by the 'cowan' .

it'd be an interesting experience to join but I don't think I'll ever try, does it cost anything?

yes ..........


Your soul !



- seriously though ; there are annual dues and a fee for initiations that is supposed to be calculated on the cost of putting it on for you .

 

[Mistro]

I learned from the KEW that initiated me that the OTO is not a magical order. It's a fraternal order. And from what I've seen recently, more a swingers' club with occult trappings.

I am a member of the O.T.O., but not from the American part.
Hahaha ... what a bad experience, I feel sorry for that. The K.E.W. (Knight of East and West) is so-called "out of the structure" but it is a Bridge between the Man of Earth Triad (it's like a foundation course) and the Lovers Triad (it's more like a manager course). That's why every level after the K.E.W. is invitational.

And why teach higher level magic to people who wouldn't understand it anyway, since the real O.T.O. teachings begin at the VIII. degree. There is also a "foundation" from the 5th degree, just at a different level.

But @Borealis, if you have question about the O.T.O. ask me as well

 

[Firetree]

I am a member of the O.T.O., but not from the American part.
Hahaha ... what a bad experience, I feel sorry for that. The K.E.W. (Knight of East and West) is so-called "out of the structure" but it is a Bridge between the Man of Earth Triad (it's like a foundation course) and the Lovers Triad (it's more like a manager course). That's why every level after the K.E.W. is invitational.

And why teach higher level magic to people who wouldn't understand it anyway, since the real O.T.O. teachings begin at the VIII. degree. There is also a "foundation" from the 5th degree, just at a different level.

But @Borealis, if you have question about the O.T.O. ask me as well

What do you mean by '' a 'foundation' from the 5th degree '' ?

 

[Mistro]

Hi Firetree!

So in the Man of Earth triad learns the initiate the foundational of magick. In the K.E.W. is the Bridge where he/she can decide if he/she want to continue to the Lovers triade. From there will be another scenario, on which the base that you know your magick.

That is what I mean. But I am not there yet, although I read a lot and search of course

 

[Robert Ramsay]

My childish brain just saw "Kew Bridge" which is a place in SW London where I go drinking from time to time

I am not surprised that something Crowley was involved with went a bit weird.

 

[Firetree]

Hi Firetree!

So in the Man of Earth triad learns the initiate the foundational of magick. In the K.E.W. is the Bridge where he/she can decide if he/she want to continue to the Lovers triade. From there will be another scenario, on which the base that you know your magick.

That is what I mean. But I am not there yet, although I read a lot and search of course

You are saying it is 'another scenario ' but not what that 'foundational scenario ' is . And actually, you do not get to decide to continue on to the Lovers Triad , that is strictly invitational , as is KEW degree .

I dont understand what 'another scenario ' means ; in the OTO degree progressions any 'scenarios' change by ceremony and ( using the word you chose; scenario ) those 'scenario ' change by ;

MInerval - In a 'camp ' with an unidentified 'Master ' and 'officer' .

1st - 3rd degree - In an 'Oasis' with an identified 'Master ' and officers.

4th degree - in a Lodge with different Master and officers .

KEW - ' a room ' with a 'Master ' .

5th Degree - ' a Chapter ' with two 'Masters '

( I notice your English seems a bit 'strained' .... maybe you mean something other than 'scenario ' ? )

Post automatically merged: Aug 4, 2026

My childish brain just saw "Kew Bridge" which is a place in SW London where I go drinking from time to time

I am not surprised that something Crowley was involved with went a bit weird.

A bit ? You should see what one is supposed to set up as 'the temple' for the KEW initiation ceremony !

( But I luv wacky stuff like that . )

 

[Thomas Tomorrow]

Personally I find the OTO rather cringey. It reminds me too much of Sunday School.

Post automatically merged: Aug 5, 2026

That noted, if you are interested in improving your magickal skills and worrying less about "status" and grades, focus on Liber O, 777 and Liber Samekh. Or rather, go directly to the PGM and work on the Headless Rite. The parts I love about Crowley is where he emphasizes the uniqueness of the individual - namely that path to KCHGA is unique for each individual. I have subsequently developed that further on my own path. Best of luck

 

[Libra.Libera]

I'm a member and officer of my local O.T.O. lodge.

The first thing you need to know is that each O.T.O. body runs mostly independently. Some bodies have a healthier culture than others. Try to get to know your local lodge before you completely write it off.

Second, I will admit that 70% of the members you meet are either people looking for shortcuts, unreasonable conspiracy theorists, people wanting to look cool, people with a sex magick kink, narcissists and flakes. But this will be true for ANY counter-culture group, including occult groups (I'm a member of other occult groups). Most of these become O.T.O. members because there is little barrier to entry in the first triad. I stayed with the O.T.O. because I met magicians I wanted to learn from who are in 5th degree or higher which is invite-only.

As others have mentioned, it is a fraternal order. Much like any professional association, it's mostly an avenue for networking and probably learn things on the side. It's a stepping stone-- not the be all and end all of your path. If you don't like networking, then joining the order will not be for you.