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If we were to have a ranking system, what would the "strongest" most powerful magician be?
Like, inside of a group obviously it would be the leader but say we put all of the traditions out there
Sounds rather shallow i know, and it's not all about just who is the baddest of them all but more of a
How would they look and be like, certainly a Magus ranks higher than an ordinary normie but that is where
the comparisons usually end. If you take any other thing it is easily comparable, a boxer vs a normie,
a good boxer vs a beginner, the best vs the average
So far the universal picture of a top dog Magician has been Crowley, but we here know it is more of a
publicity thing, Sure the Slash is a great guitarist but he is in fact just average or above but 20 years ago
He was treated like a god, when every dunce out there knows Jimmy Hendrix would melt his face with one solo
Or how everybody thought Steven Seagal was a peak martial artist (can't believe i used to like that guy)
How would we recognize a top tier Magician? What is it about them that sets them apart? Especially from someone
who merely claims to be the best?
There is a Dr Strange comic where a loudmouth magician challenges him because he claims he is more powerful. They do their duel, the guy wins and kills Dr Strange. Then immediately an astral portal opens with a challenger, ready to take on the new top magician. And another, and another etc. In the end the new champion of wizards breaks down, and it is revealed (of course) that all new challengers were just Dr Strange.
I think the OTO magicians (Crowley and the Fraternitas Saturni etc) had their pictures and semi public persona not necessarily for the general public. But afterwards, because the info was there, the public magician became a thing as the later generations modeled themselves after what they saw and believed to be the way a magician is.
Perhaps, but if the Magus in question only has their magic(of which we don't know how their mastery and experience over it is) while the "normie" has dozens of skills and knowledge that allows them to do a lot...in my view the normie would rank higher than the Magus.Because through normal means the normie would, in a way, be able to change their reality.
"If you have to ask, you wouldn't know it anyway".
It's something I've heard from others regarding other subjects, but I think it applies here too.
I'm sure that-and if they even exist-a top tier Magician would never be so identifiable by just anybody.You would probably have to "be on top" too in order to recognize them.
Most likely they would seem like an ordinary person at first glance, but once you interacted with them and spoke with them you would feel their confidence in themselves and in their art(s) and they would feel otherworldly and cool(for a lack of a better term).You would feel like you have a lot to learn from them.
@Taudefindi i have seen many authors tackle that a Magician should be able to perform physical activity (probably in a pushback to the community being...well nerds.) And their work to be physically exhausting as well, on top of that a Magus must be responsible on a higher level
Emotional control, thought control, in theory a magician thinking "man i hope you get hit by a car" is enough to start some trouble
By those standards a Magus is above a normie. HOWEVER i also remember Star Wars "what is a jedi without the force, defenseless and tiny without any practical skills"
So its true leaning too much into magick is an obvious weakness.
Crowley's fanfare probably has much to do with the society of the time, any regular modern trash horror flick would be terror for them
and that "Any man who must say he is the King is no true King" jazz is all well and fine, i was asking in a comparative sense
Finally, i agree with your last conclusion, the determining factor would be feeling, a real badass magician should be felt before he is seen
unless of course he does not wish it to be so, their presence should be intense according to whatever tradition they pratice
I think that for starters you would need to explain what you mean with "most powerful".Because that is a very broad term and to different people the idea of power is subjective.
Do you mean someone able to use pure force or strength to impose their will over others?Someone able to be completely self-reliant?Someone with a lot of connections or knowledge?
I read a book on mimetic desire this week called Wanting by Luke Burgis. It explores why humans want what they want. Imitation is in our genes, as it were. Babies start learning to imitate those around them as soon as they're born. And until the day we die, we're always comparing ourselves to role models whom we imitate or attempt to differentiate ourselves from. It is no surprise that magicians look to role models of perceived success among their ranks. Let's suppose for a moment that you're suddenly at least as capable in magick as Crowley. What do you desire to do with your new found abilities?
We desire to do what we see others doing. This is complicated in the current era by media consumption. The news media attempts to manipulate our wants by selectively showing us what certain people are doing and building a narrative. The people who own the news media corporations have wants, too, which may not align with their viewer's best interests. Advertising attempts to manipulate our desires by associating products with role models. Advertisers are not concerned that potential customers most likely don't need their products as long as they are paid. Burgis explains that there are "thin" and "thick" desires. One can waste a lot of time and energy pursuing "thin" desires which are only later found to be personally unfulfilling. These desires are most often the products of manipulation. Imagine being as capable as Crowley, yet still being manipulated by propaganda.
"Thick" desire is that which increases personal success and happiness over an extended period of time. It is possible to examine one's own life to discover what really matters to oneself. Not surprisingly, meditation and planned periods of silent isolation allow the noise of competing "thin" desires to dissipate. Is it any surprise that meditation in its many forms is universally recommended by successful magicians?
Here's a quote from the book that I found particularly interesting:
Mimetic desire manifests itself as the constant yearning to be someone or something else (what we called metaphysical desire). People select models because they think the models hold the key to a door that just might lead to the thing they have been looking for. But as we’ve seen, this metaphysical desire is a never-ending game. We cycle through models faster than we cycle through clothes. The act of winning, of gaining possession of the thing that the model made us want, convinces us that we chose the wrong model in the first place. And so we go in search of another one.
Mimetic desire is a paradoxical game. Winning is how you lose. Every victory is Pyrrhic.
@KjEno186
Very interesting, highly depressing. I recognized my self in what you wrote instantly.
I can also add a bit onto the imitation bit, as animals play with their cubs ultimately teaching them survival skills
So too did we make up heroes like Beowulf (Him specificaly because he is one of the first english literature we have preserved)
So that kids can pretend to be him and ultimately defend the village
But here the plot thickens. Long before theater we did plays based on religious elements,
And the Egyptian and African priests would do the same, however in that we touch upon the occult finally
There is acting and then there is invocation/evocation as they would recreate their mythos and attempt to identify as closely as they could
to their roles.
I read about experiments of the likes where classical music students were instructed to "roleplay" being a chosen artist
and recorded many of them to have been more capable, better due to the drill
So far, in the modern, it culminates into "Deep Trance Identification" it's pretty out there on the fringes of parapsychology
but the logic seems valid, you step into the figure you would learn from and obviously this has occult
inspiration and also can be used for it as well.
This isn't over. There's something in all of this that we are yet to breakthrough.
You mean when people on instagram, with their carefully curated photos and videos, depict a fake reality of their lives to others?Because while I don't use social medias(much) I have noticed that a lot of people seem to be very hung up on the fact that they also wished to be able to travel the world all the time, do whatever sport someone appears doing in foreign lands, or just "look like them".
It feels sometimes like people let social medias and those manipulating them dictate what they should desire, rather than the people figuring it out by themselves.
I can't lie though, when I see different athletes doing amazing feats of physical prowess I do feel a bit jealous over their control, strength, agility and dexterity.
I read about experiments of the likes where classical music students were instructed to "roleplay" being a chosen artist
and recorded many of them to have been more capable, better due to the drill
I'm of the mind that roleplay can help a person in certain situations.
The "fake it until you make it", it's a crutch that can be useful if used correctly and for a short time, otherwise you run the risk of depending on it too much or even losing your own identity.
You would have to memorize every detail and every word, but in Golden Dawn (I assume AA and OTO as well), you could self initiate by roleplaying each officer and the candidate as well.
As did I! It is important to remember that such knowledge gives us insight into the processes that are fundamental to our being. There is nothing wrong with imitation or desire as long as we assume responsibility and recognize potential pitfalls. From the perspective of a new magician, I'm certainly guilty of discovering books that make me want to imitate yet another author of magic, until I find myself no more than a few steps into each path I've tried. In my defense, I'd say that the Occult by its very definition requires a substantial period of exploration before one can grasp the relative values of various models. For this reason I like your original post.
Yep! Luke Burgis categorizes people generally into two groups. Celebristan and Freshmanistan. The people we look up to live in "Celebristan" and model things and actions which are desirable to us, but also practically unobtainable, like fame and immense wealth. Among our peers, however, we live in "Freshmanistan," and we are in competition with one another as though we were back in school again. We can be in both "places" at once, of course. A social media influencer is at once a role model, a celebrity, to their followers, but they're also in competition with other influencers as peers. But beware associating mimetic desire with only the crudest aspects of social media. Burgis' book is full of examples, positive and not so much, from leaders in the business world.
If we were to have a ranking system, what would the "strongest" most powerful magician be?
Like, inside of a group obviously it would be the leader but say we put all of the traditions out there
Sounds rather shallow i know, and it's not all about just who is the baddest of them all but more of a
How would they look and be like, certainly a Magus ranks higher than an ordinary normie but that is where
the comparisons usually end. If you take any other thing it is easily comparable, a boxer vs a normie,
a good boxer vs a beginner, the best vs the average
So far the universal picture of a top dog Magician has been Crowley, but we here know it is more of a
publicity thing, Sure the Slash is a great guitarist but he is in fact just average or above but 20 years ago
He was treated like a god, when every dunce out there knows Jimmy Hendrix would melt his face with one solo
Or how everybody thought Steven Seagal was a peak martial artist (can't believe i used to like that guy)
How would we recognize a top tier Magician? What is it about them that sets them apart? Especially from someone
who merely claims to be the best?
Coud be it's like what traditional martial arts teaches: the real badass looks as if he had no special skill at all. Deon Fortune drops hints to that effect. Her John Taverner was, I understood, based on one Theodor Moriarty, her mentor in the AO. A low-key professional man (doctor, I think) he never paraded his skills, but exercised them to swift effect. On spectrum's other extreme, Evola spoke true in his mostly laudatory article on Crowley describing him, at one point, as a "showman."
Modern "godforms" indeed.
I don't use any social media but I do watch a lot of YouTube and it seems there's a growing understanding that a lot of these modern role models are crafted by companies to make you buy products.
Opposers of religion will obviously now say that Jesus falls in the same category.
A couple of objections, yer Honor. First, the guy who made (and can change at whim) the rules cannot be a player in the game. Especially not since he is ALSO the referee. Second, in any event that player's existence is open to dispute.
Like assumption of Godforms in the Golden Dawn. I think this really can work
Modern "godforms" indeed.
I don't use any social media but I do watch a lot of YouTube and it seems there's a growing understanding that a lot of these modern role models are crafted by companies to make you buy products.
Opposers of religion will obviously now say that Jesus falls in the same category.
A couple of objections, yer Honor. First, the guy who made (and can change at whim) the rules cannot be a player in the game. Especially not since he is ALSO the referee.
I was answering the question: "If we were to have a ranking system, what would the "strongest" most powerful magician be?" The rank of the "strongest and most powerful magician" would be God. That's the rank. In the I.T. world this is well known. The ones with "root" credentials or "Domain Administrators" are "Gods". It's just a "rank", an attainment, not a theological position.
God IS a valid response, however a little lazy one.
But Xenophon is also right, at this era of the world we are in the post-flood times, and the rainbow
was a seal of the deal, The big G will no longer interfere or act directly upon us, of course unless he wants it to be otherwise
But so far we have no reason to say that is so. Besides it's kind of a moot point, we need something more concrete to work with here
in terms of who the magician is and what they would be like.
For my two cents i get a lot of my inspiration off of 3 characters from different media.
1: Ravel Puzzlewell. She is a hag/ sort of witch from Planescape:Torment and her main body is locked away in a trap pocket dimension
The player character deals with the issue of their lost memory and the fact that they are immortal, all done because he asked Ravel for it
"What can change the nature of a man?" Is the question she leaves you with and it haunts you every step of the way.
Her thoughtforms live casual lives outside of the dimension and one of them can teach you magick
her lessons are deep but i particularly noticed that, meeting another wizard (with a degree even!) he bashes your book of shadows for being
an ugly mess, responding back to Ravel she is like "I have forgotten more of the art than you or your little friends will ever know"
There is no implication that woman is who you are looking for in a 100 hour game (she's in the starting area...)
Anyway, she is killable, but that does not lessen her impact (plot characters are usually immortal), she is not really present - yet her mark and influence is everywhere, the "god" of the gameworld you play in is so threatened by her she is locked away - that's power.
lastly if you take up magick from her, and proceed to meet similar figures, the echoes of what she has taught you regularly gives these people pause and raise their suspicions "Who the hell is this new guy..." also she was made by Avalon who is a practitioner, don't recomend playing that monster of an outdated game but a google dive on her i do support wholeheartedly
2. Xardas The Necromancer in a world split between 3 divinities (fire-justice, water-balance, death - darkness) there is an endless war
of the Gods going on, you have a whole history of it going on for a millenia, this guy is the Archmage of the circle of Fire at one time
but is primarily interested on the large scale picture, no one before or after him ever questions the state of reality and the "it is what it is"
mentality rules. In trying to solve mysteries that plague him he switches to the dark side and even consorts with demons and the like, yet where everyone else would lose their self agency his is increased, You are sent to find him and beg his help, He is mysterious and rarely explains anything, just sends you out here and there so that you yourself might gleam what's going on. His initial plan fails but puts the God of Evil on the
move, making him place his divine power into a Dragon, only for him to use you into taking it's essence for himself. With this
he eventually takes away the power and relics of all the gods, leaving only himself and the player with the divine spark, so he and you
pack your bags take one last run around the continent and leave the realm, effectively ending the war, blocking all the gods from the world
and truly achieving free will for everyone. His plan was in the making for over a hundred years and watching him go about it even when something goes wrong was great, the mystery surrounding him is mwah , i loved how anyone who knew his name was deeply troubled he is out there somewhere... plotting.
3. Kreia - Darth Traya. A similar concept to that of Xardas except she does assume a position of your teacher, her philosophy is scathing
and trying to figure her out is a delicious challenge. She also has percieved reality and the force in a manner that no one else ever
thought about, one of her grand lessons involves meeting a beggar, should you chase him off she questions your psychotic urges and is quite
displeased,however if you give some charity she is even worse, implying that now giving him what he has not earned he is weakened and whadayaknow he is robbed and killed right around the corner. You meet a woman, taken into slavery in a closed off area, little while later
you find her husband who is out looking for her. Again this is just a small little event but she takes it as well as any other chance
to study you and your personality "If he TRULY loved her, he would not be in this state or depend on the help of others. To hell with the rules, with the thugs, the plague, nothing would stand in my way of what i love." type of thing. And damn, i can't argue with that. It's a classical
point, you go to people, solve their problems and profit both in experience and money, but did you really help them or only yourself?
Kreia trained the most dangerous people in the universe- EVER, all through her philosophies not some blattant power levels
She too aspires to kill the force it self as a form of liberation from it's influence.
So to wrap it all up, all those attributes and personalities is what i imagine a bigus dickus Magician to be, they are aware of what you are not
It's not about having the power to make reality bend to your will or snap your fingers and say "it's done"
God IS a valid response, however a little lazy one.
But Xenophon is also right, at this era of the world we are in the post-flood times, and the rainbow
was a seal of the deal, The big G will no longer interfere or act directly upon us, of course unless he wants it to be otherwise
But so far we have no reason to say that is so. Besides it's kind of a moot point, we need something more concrete to work with here
in terms of who the magician is and what they would be like.
For my two cents i get a lot of my inspiration off of 3 characters from different media.
1: Ravel Puzzlewell. She is a hag/ sort of witch from Planescape:Torment and her main body is locked away in a trap pocket dimension
The player character deals with the issue of their lost memory and the fact that they are immortal, all done because he asked Ravel for it
"What can change the nature of a man?" Is the question she leaves you with and it haunts you every step of the way.
Her thoughtforms live casual lives outside of the dimension and one of them can teach you magick
her lessons are deep but i particularly noticed that, meeting another wizard (with a degree even!) he bashes your book of shadows for being
an ugly mess, responding back to Ravel she is like "I have forgotten more of the art than you or your little friends will ever know"
There is no implication that woman is who you are looking for in a 100 hour game (she's in the starting area...)
Anyway, she is killable, but that does not lessen her impact (plot characters are usually immortal), she is not really present - yet her mark and influence is everywhere, the "god" of the gameworld you play in is so threatened by her she is locked away - that's power.
lastly if you take up magick from her, and proceed to meet similar figures, the echoes of what she has taught you regularly gives these people pause and raise their suspicions "Who the hell is this new guy..." also she was made by Avalon who is a practitioner, don't recomend playing that monster of an outdated game but a google dive on her i do support wholeheartedly
2. Xardas The Necromancer in a world split between 3 divinities (fire-justice, water-balance, death - darkness) there is an endless war
of the Gods going on, you have a whole history of it going on for a millenia, this guy is the Archmage of the circle of Fire at one time
but is primarily interested on the large scale picture, no one before or after him ever questions the state of reality and the "it is what it is"
mentality rules. In trying to solve mysteries that plague him he switches to the dark side and even consorts with demons and the like, yet where everyone else would lose their self agency his is increased, You are sent to find him and beg his help, He is mysterious and rarely explains anything, just sends you out here and there so that you yourself might gleam what's going on. His initial plan fails but puts the God of Evil on the
move, making him place his divine power into a Dragon, only for him to use you into taking it's essence for himself. With this
he eventually takes away the power and relics of all the gods, leaving only himself and the player with the divine spark, so he and you
pack your bags take one last run around the continent and leave the realm, effectively ending the war, blocking all the gods from the world
and truly achieving free will for everyone. His plan was in the making for over a hundred years and watching him go about it even when something goes wrong was great, the mystery surrounding him is mwah , i loved how anyone who knew his name was deeply troubled he is out there somewhere... plotting.
3. Kreia - Darth Traya. A similar concept to that of Xardas except she does assume a position of your teacher, her philosophy is scathing
and trying to figure her out is a delicious challenge. She also has percieved reality and the force in a manner that no one else ever
thought about, one of her grand lessons involves meeting a beggar, should you chase him off she questions your psychotic urges and is quite
displeased,however if you give some charity she is even worse, implying that now giving him what he has not earned he is weakened and whadayaknow he is robbed and killed right around the corner. You meet a woman, taken into slavery in a closed off area, little while later
you find her husband who is out looking for her. Again this is just a small little event but she takes it as well as any other chance
to study you and your personality "If he TRULY loved her, he would not be in this state or depend on the help of others. To hell with the rules, with the thugs, the plague, nothing would stand in my way of what i love." type of thing. And damn, i can't argue with that. It's a classical
point, you go to people, solve their problems and profit both in experience and money, but did you really help them or only yourself?
Kreia trained the most dangerous people in the universe- EVER, all through her philosophies not some blattant power levels
She too aspires to kill the force it self as a form of liberation from it's influence.
So to wrap it all up, all those attributes and personalities is what i imagine a bigus dickus Magician to be, they are aware of what you are not
It's not about having the power to make reality bend to your will or snap your fingers and say "it's done"
Oh, and also don't forget Shakespeare's The tempest.
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Actually, now that i think about it. Jesus is a very strong contender, even according to my own preferences.
My answer is Jesus. Those paraboles of his are the best ( though i admit they can get a little exhausting)
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Or Hermes Trismegistus... guys i think this thread was a mistake
