[Opinion] Psychological vs. Spirit Model of Occult Belief

[SkullTraill]

Psychological model: you believe that magick works by unlocking hidden parts of your (sub)consciousness. For instance, in the Goetia, you believe that all the demons are just metaphors for hidden parts of your own mind/psyche that the old authors were simply incapable of comprehending, but now with advancements in modern psychology, we've come to understand that they are actually within ourselves, and things like rituals, seals, evocation etc are just methods of unlocking those parts of your mind, and the results of your magick are caused by those parts of your own mind being unlocked and put to work to achieve your goals. This is popular with mostly modern occultists, even Crowley etc. You believe the power is within you.

Spirit model: popular with folk, shamanistic, and mixed tradition occult practices such as ATRs. You believe that magick comes from spirits, and the practitioner is nothing but an ambassador to the spirits, whose job it is to convince and appease the spirits so that they do the work you/the community requires. You believe the power is in the spirits.

Which one do you identify with, and if you identify as both depending on the practices, which practices do you ascribe to each model?

 

[stratamaster78]

I personally identify with both which could be a bit tricky to explain, but I'll give it a shot.

I believe when a person is doing Magick to work with Entities or Energies or Intelligences such as Angels, Demons, Elementals etc etc.... whatever name one wants to choose....that they both exist inside of you and outside of you.

In relation to the Psychological Model the Angels are reflections of you Higher states of Consciousness as you ascend through the Planetary Spheres or the Tree of Life Spheres of whatever paradigm one uses. The 'Demons' are an Opposite Polarity to the Angels and reside in the Sub-Consciousness. Neither is Good or Evil.... They are like opposite sides of a Coin... or rather on opposite ends of a Spectrum of Polarity and both can have Aspects that show Mercy or Severity.

But they also can exist outside of you in a way....

I don't really like using this word but they can be 'Thoughtforms' that also become External Egregores because of the Powerful beliefs that Mankind has that this things ARE External.

So if you say Evoke an Angel to help you with a certain situation like say.... Raphael for Healing of a friend or loved one.

The Magick will work on Two fronts. It will work because the Power of the Magick is IN YOU....Raphael is IN YOU, but it will also work because the Singular Consciousness of Mankind has created the Egregore of Raphael who is known to be "God's Healer".

This is also how I believe the HGA operates. It is your Higher Teacher that you gain access to when you do the Solar/Tiphereth work to reach contact at that Higher Consciousness.

But the HGA is also an External Entity or it can be because so much of the Magick/Occult community have BELIEVED it to be External.

Lastly I'll touch on the Spirit Model because I don't want to offend anyone who believes solely in that. I also do believe there are things that exist completely outside of us and that inhabit the Etheric realms and other Realms and Dimensions.

Sometimes it can be Loved Ones that somehow clung near to the Physical world or maybe even got lost or trapped for a time. Other times it can be some not so nice to Humans entities like the Fae. Then there are things that exist that no one knows their name or where they came from.

Anyway those are all just my own insights and I in no way mean to offend anyone with any of it as I know this can be a sensitive subject.

 

[Yazata]

I also believe both are true. Like with so many things it's good to remain flexible in your thoughts.
Now that you both have explained these two types better than I could, im having this thought of the left and right part of the brain as being receptive / adjusted to one of both models. And the eternity symbol above the Magician's head in the tarot in that case then symbolizes this constant balancing / shifting of beliefs to stop from getting stuck in one way of thinking.

 

[Jarhyn]

Magic comes from both. I don't subscribe to left/right brain dualities; but there is most certainly magic that comes from opening oneself up to chaos and calling things in from the void...

And there is magic that comes from carefully managing the shape of the mindscape you have access to or can gain access to.

One is growing the trees from seeds, the other is tending them and minding their form and function and properly handling their fruits.

Sometimes it is pulling up weeds before they become unmanageable. Some of it is trimming up what has grown up too strong or interconnected to the ecosystem to remove and beautiful in it's own way anyway.

One cannot have a garden if one never plants a seed and sees what grows of it.

 

[Mider2009]

A lot of what’s in the occult are archetypes and so psychology does play a big part of it, as to weather there are demons, n angels, I think there are, but angels may be past species who evolved to that point, humans have the ability to be like angels...our higher selves. Demons idk, I’ve read hints that if humans act a certain way they become demons.

but as for psychology....even though there may never have been a Jesus who’s death cleansed the world, if Christians sincerely believe this then Jesus works to cleanse sun for them...Jesus as an archetype.

 

[Bandaboy]

I think that the psychological model does not see God as the creator of all this, and the spiritual model considers God or other spiritual beings to be the source of all this. I must say though, I kind of see a correlation between many of the elements contained in them.

For example, I see a strong correlation between the 7 fold chakra system Abraham Maslows hierarchy of needs. Am I the only one that sees this?

 

[Konsciencia]

Psychological model: you believe that magick works by unlocking hidden parts of your (sub)consciousness. For instance, in the Goetia, you believe that all the demons are just metaphors for hidden parts of your own mind/psyche that the old authors were simply incapable of comprehending, but now with advancements in modern psychology, we've come to understand that they are actually within ourselves, and things like rituals, seals, evocation etc are just methods of unlocking those parts of your mind, and the results of your magick are caused by those parts of your own mind being unlocked and put to work to achieve your goals. This is popular with mostly modern occultists, even Crowley etc. You believe the power is within you.

Spirit model: popular with folk, shamanistic, and mixed tradition occult practices such as ATRs. You believe that magick comes from spirits, and the practitioner is nothing but an ambassador to the spirits, whose job it is to convince and appease the spirits so that they do the work you/the community requires. You believe the power is in the spirits.

Which one do you identify with, and if you identify as both depending on the practices, which practices do you ascribe to each model?

I would say psychological model for me, because I don't believe, I know that our true Essence lies in the Spirit, or Soul. I don't know anything about working with Magick in a sense as in a ritual. All I had to do was ask The Universe in It's many forms, and ever since than I never went back to normal. What I mean is, that I am somehow Connected to My Higher Self, and that my Higher Self Connects me to The Universe. My very own Soul, is my true Higher Self.

 

[Roma]

It seems to me that the standard human system contains trillions of intelligences - quite a few of which are lesser devas and similar in origin to those called demons. One or three are greater devas - similar to those called angels. There are a myriad of elemental intelligences in the human - all holding hands so that the various energy bodies are more or less coherent./functional

And if the human is sufficiently refined/transparent a cosmic entity will overlight the human for its purposes

Who can test such a proposition?

 

[stratamaster78]

I think that the psychological model does not see God as the creator of all this, and the spiritual model considers God or other spiritual beings to be the source of all this. I must say though, I kind of see a correlation between many of the elements contained in them.

For example, I see a strong correlation between the 7 fold chakra system Abraham Maslows hierarchy of needs. Am I the only one that sees this?

I just wanted to add my perspective to this statement here since I lean more towards the Psychological Model in my practices (even though I do also acknowledge that the Spirit Model is Valid in my own understanding of it).

The following may sound a bit Crazy so please understand it's only my Perspective and Understanding and not meant to be something I feel anyone else has to believe.

I don't think of the Ultimate Creator as the Religious Deity or Archetype of 'God'.

My perspective is that 'God' is the Divine Source Consciousness that Poured itself into a Physical Manifestation of the Universe we exist in and that it lives in everything and is everything (except for a few Entities or Intelligences that were birthed from other circumstances).

It is You, It is Me, It is Everyone who has ever existed on this Planet and who will ever exist. It is experiencing this world by peering through the eyes of every single Person.

The purpose is to experience Change in the Infinite ways that can happen because at the Source there is already a state of Perfection.

Basically this is the Divine Source playing at being something else (Human) to have a Myriad of Experiences that it can't have otherwise.

Most of us just don't know that we are that Divine Source of Creation because of the Singular Human Ego and the Amnesia created from the Cycle of Rebirth that can only be broken from reaching Complete Enlightenment.

In my practice that is reaching Chokmah/Zodiac and Kether/Source on the Tree of Life/Planetary Cosmograph. For others the stage of Complete Enlightenment is just called something different on a different Paradigm.

TLDR:

I lean more towards the Psychological Model but also believe in the Spirit Model in my own way.

I Don't Believe in the Religious Archetype of God

I Do Believe in God as the Divine Source Consciousness.

From that.... You, Me, and Everyone else is in fact that Divine Source Consciousness having experiences as Human Beings.

 

[Konsciencia]

It seems to me that the standard human system contains trillions of intelligences - quite a few of which are lesser devas and similar in origin to those called demons. One or three are greater devas - similar to those called angels. There are a myriad of elemental intelligences in the human - all holding hands so that the various energy bodies are more or less coherent./functional

And if the human is sufficiently refined/transparent a cosmic entity will overlight the human for its purposes

Who can test such a proposition?

I consider, the term Devas. Without these Devas, there won't be us or anything. We each have bits of these Devas within, and throughout us. For those who don't know what a Deva is. They are a multidimensional tiny Energy Beings, that come together in fusions to create and sustained a variety of forms. In other words, they are Beings of Light. Consider them, to be rays of Light. For example: your Soul is a Deva. Love and many blessings!

 

[The God-King]

I subscribe to the spirit model of magic. I believe Crowley switched over to the spirit model later in his life, as well. For me, the pysch model is a good explanation for those coming into the occult from a more logical or scientific mindset. The authors of the grimoires or other such occult, esoteric or mystical texts from antiquity certainly didn't have any sort of psychological model. I don't believe that came about until the Renaissance period or Enlightenment period and popularized in our modern times by chaos magic authors.

I do agree that changes do occur on a psychological level while performing rituals or during meditation or any sort of mystical acts or experiences, but I don't view it as the mechanics behind the scenes of what's going on. Just a good, logical explanation of it.

 

[SkullTraill]

I subscribe to the spirit model of magic. I believe Crowley switched over to the spirit model later in his life, as well. For me, the pysch model is a good explanation for those coming into the occult from a more logical or scientific mindset. The authors of the grimoires or other such occult, esoteric or mystical texts from antiquity certainly didn't have any sort of psychological model. I don't believe that came about until the Renaissance period or Enlightenment period and popularized in our modern times by chaos magic authors.

I do agree that changes do occur on a psychological level while performing rituals or during meditation or any sort of mystical acts or experiences, but I don't view it as the mechanics behind the scenes of what's going on. Just a good, logical explanation of it.

I relate to this a lot. When I first started my occult journey here on WF, I came in with a 100% psych mindset. Actually I came in not believing at all, but as I discovered things and the "work" started actually working, I justified it as purely psych because of my scientific/academia background.

But slowly, over time as I do more and more magick work and occult studies, some parts of my practice I've begun to ascribe more to the spirit model.

Obviously it's a cop-out and bitch answer imo to simply say "I believe in both 100% for all aspects of my work" but there are at least to some extent different schools of the occult and in those different schools I have different beliefs. For example, I think chaos magick is still 100% psych, but when it comes to ATRs, hoodoo etc I've more or less come to accept that maybe the spirit model is actually right.

As for Goetia, Grim Trad etc I'm still on the fence, but now open to the idea of the spirit model for them as well.

Thanks for the answering genuinely and not hiding behind the "I believe both equally" cop-out. It's rare to see people admit to believing in the spirit model these days.

I do agree that changes do occur on a psychological level while performing rituals or during meditation or any sort of mystical acts or experiences, but I don't view it as the mechanics behind the scenes of what's going on. Just a good, logical explanation of it.

I think many of the people who would answer "both" are confusing exactly this situation. The distinction between the true mechanics of the magick vs side-effects and causal results is important when answering this question.

 

[The God-King]

Thanks @SkullTraill and I do believe JSK connected rites of the ATRs to contacting Goetic beings. I just forget the name of the book . I also believe books like Ophidic Essence combines Quimbanda and some Goetic works, so there's certainly precedent of a fusion and IMO that can only work from a spirit model. And of course we have hoodoo that uses seals and conjurations from Grim Trad (hoodoo being an ADR and Grim Trad encompassing Goetia) and most popularly the 6th & 7th Books or Moses.

 

[Josi]

I feel as though for as long as we have lived, there has been this "combat" between real and unreal. In concern to the question posed, I believe that both can be true without negating the other. As humans, we are of all things. Our spirit has been melded with a physical form. Our spirit connects us to the energy of the Universe (in whatever form that manifests) and our body connects us to the world of the living. Magic can come from many things and there are many ways to "manipulate" it. However, being a part of the world of the living comes at a cost. There is a vulnerability to it.

 

[Frater Dag]

Once a person has had strong spirit contact, its really hard to fully believe in the psychological model. If you want spirit contact, take Gordon White's suggestion of doing the Headless Rite and ending it with an offering ritual to the Four Kings as he writes in The Chaos Protocols.

If you want spirit contact and would also like spirits who would be willing to help you with your life, call the Lucky Hoodoo spirits from the Voudon Gnostic Workbook and ask them to make themselves known to you. You can change the words of the ritual to exclude the "now and forever" part.

 

[Konsciencia]

I feel as though for as long as we have lived, there has been this "combat" between real and unreal. In concern to the question posed, I believe that both can be true without negating the other. As humans, we are of all things. Our spirit has been melded with a physical form. Our spirit connects us to the energy of the Universe (in whatever form that manifests) and our body connects us to the world of the living. Magic can come from many things and there are many ways to "manipulate" it. However, being a part of the world of the living comes at a cost. There is a vulnerability to it.

I definitely agree!

 

[Diluculo_DelFuego]

Psychological model: you believe that magick works by unlocking hidden parts of your (sub)consciousness. For instance, in the Goetia, you believe that all the demons are just metaphors for hidden parts of your own mind/psyche that the old authors were simply incapable of comprehending, but now with advancements in modern psychology, we've come to understand that they are actually within ourselves, and things like rituals, seals, evocation etc are just methods of unlocking those parts of your mind, and the results of your magick are caused by those parts of your own mind being unlocked and put to work to achieve your goals. This is popular with mostly modern occultists, even Crowley etc. You believe the power is within you.

Spirit model: popular with folk, shamanistic, and mixed tradition occult practices such as ATRs. You believe that magick comes from spirits, and the practitioner is nothing but an ambassador to the spirits, whose job it is to convince and appease the spirits so that they do the work you/the community requires. You believe the power is in the spirits.

Which one do you identify with, and if you identify as both depending on the practices, which practices do you ascribe to each model?

I believe a mixture.

I think there are parts of the brain that are hidden to us, and I know that cabalistic or hermetic magic, even qlippothic, can transform a person to be the best them, in context of the path.

But take the standard Cabalistic Cross and Lesser Ritual of the Pentagram. The student is advised to see a bright star, after inflating themselves to stand on the revolving earth, and pull the beam of light down to the forehead and vibrate ATOH, etc.
This begs the question, from where without does this beam of light come from?

If we are talking a simple psychological model, I would advise reading up on all Emperor entries by Paul Foster Case and comparing physical regions of the brain, then read his take on Self Consciousness (Magician), Subconsciousness (High Priestess), and Superconsciousness (Lovers or Chariot, forget which at the moment, the other is discernment).

The more we find out per grimoire, that relates or associates or is about the qlippoth, goetia, or shemhamphoresh, the more we find out these angels and Demons have more and more powers in a variety of contexts and situations, and that these are very latent abilities within any adult human being with a functional model of the brain, spine and central nervous system.

 

[Diluculo_DelFuego]

Again, on mechanics of magic vs causal side effects,
1. Cabalistic Cross: The entire point of this is a subtle exorcism and self purification, based off the Lords Prayer (Prayer of David), unto thee Tetragrammaton is the Kingdom. The shaft of light drawn in is not from within, so this is not strictly a psychological operation. Therefore the assumption is a force outside of and greater than ourself exists and wants to help us. The side effect of this ritual alone should be a grounding, and subtle exorcism and self purification. Combined with meditation on the point of the ritual and the proper aromas to go with it, it should produce as well an altered state of consciousness.
2. Cross of Light exercise from Demons of Magic, see above, only in this ritual there are cross beams of light within your circle and light comes from Metatron above, creating a disc or pentacle of light on which you stand and are surrounded by (as well as the five archangels).
3. Lesser Ritual of the Pentagram, this should balance the sphere of sensation, the general mood and thought train, and can extend to the environment. It typically has a twelve hour shelf life, hence the student advised to perform at least twice daily for a year. This should balance the mind and environment. This force can come from within ourself, but we are intoning and vibrating divine names, and calling the archangels. Obviously a greater power without exists at this point. However, we also causal effect the environment by pushing the pentagram outward to the ends of the universe or cube of space.
4. Lesser Ritual of the Hexagram. Again, higher powers exists as divine names are intoned and vibrated as well with ARARITA. The effect is planetary manipulation through angels, intelligences and spirits, therefore its energy and force manipulation into form.
I am a Zelator, so I cannot expand on this.
I have however explored the qlippoth and goetia and evoked and petitioned. I know at least Ipos and Bime were called. I know that once when evoking Lucifer, and thinking it failed, I was dragged halfway down my bed after laying down in thought of failure. How was that bed pull from within, and why instead of just getting back up the way I laid down? Personal experience, whether one believes it or not, is the highest factor, especially if it becomes a shared or universal gnosis.

 

[Diluculo_DelFuego]

I think we are derailing the thread here.

 

[Just Jim]

For the sake of argument let's say that either one is true or false.

If the Psychological model is true and the spirit model is false then spirits do not exist outside of human perception. They are merely a mystification of human behavior. It has a 'law of attraction' vibe to it that is essentially about believing in something enough that it will become a reality. Any positive outcomes (what was intended) will be attributed to the evoked spirits in the mind. The problem with this being true is that arguing for the collective unconscious (in a Jungian sense) becomes a sway towards the spirit model being true and psychological being false as this would technically make the spirits more than psychological and more like ontological properties of the universe.

This makes a combination of both being true or at least partly true, very difficult to validate. If the power is within you, then it was there a priori, therefore it cannot be solely psychological as this would constitute a 'discovery' of the power and not an invention of it.

It is on this basis that I argue that the psychological model is false and the spirit model is true.

Acting a medium of sorts is not an impotence on the humans behalf, a spirit model would accommodate an ontological collective unconscious and would eliminate the problem of bias (only positive results would be counted) as failures to evoke spirits would have to be counted in the sense of trying to call someone on a phone and they either answer or they don't. A psychological model is too open to a shifting of goal posts in this regard and can't stand up to criticism as there is no external repeatable test. In an ontological spirit model we can know for sure if we are successfully or unsuccessfully manifesting the power of a spirit as they can be called from outside of human perception, it is more likely that a successful result could be repeated by somebody else.

Anyway I thought I would throw in this argument to see what we can get out of it, instead of us all just saying both are true.