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Vaping

Mider2009

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SkullTraill was discussing this in another thread, does anyone here vape?

in my late twenties or early thirties vaping was a big thing then the big companies got a hold of it and added chemicals

now there’s this crusade saying it’s evil, bad etc which is pretty sad because some small businesses manufacturer it without the additional chemicals. More then that the stories of teens getting sick from vaping go like this, well I vaped 24 seven till my lungs almost collapsed idk how this happened... reminds me of a story where a guy died after drinking massive amounts of caffeine.
 

SkullTraill

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big companies got a hold of it and added chemicals
Got any sources for that?

I think that's disingenuous. Most vaping liquid companies are relatively small.

If you mean the disposable pod systems like JUUL, then yeah, a few mainstream big tobacco companies have released their own, but I have still yet to see any actual evidence that they are poisoned in any way.

There are tonnes more regulations these days because of big tobacco and stupid moms against vaping or whatever. The big tobacco companies what make these pod devices get more lenience obviously but they still couldn't get away with purposefully adding chemicals to it that are harmful.

But if you get your own fully-fledged, non-pod device, and buy liquid from a reputed liquid manufacturer, vaping is 100% for sure better and safer than:
  • cigarettes
  • pipe tobacco
  • smoking weed (joints, blunts, etc)
Because it simply has 4 ingredients:
  • PG
  • VG
  • Nicotine
  • Flavorings (highly regulated so that only flavors safe for inhalation are allowed)
These are just the facts. Obviously, I'm only talking about nicotine vaping. THC/CBD vaping does have several documented cases of health/lung issues, and that has more to do with poor standard for manufacturing THC oils and has nothing to do with nicotine vaping, but sadly, many people think that those incidents with THC/CBD vaping are the same as or similar to nicotine vaping, which is pure ignorance and couldn't be further from the truth.

Vaping is 90-99% safer than tobacco smoking and anyone who claims otherwise is simply delusional... there is no evidence to support a counterclaim.
 

Mider2009

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Got any sources for that?

I think that's disingenuous. Most vaping liquid companies are relatively small.

If you mean the disposable pod systems like JUUL, then yeah, a few mainstream big tobacco companies have released their own, but I have still yet to see any actual evidence that they are poisoned in any way.

There are tonnes more regulations these days because of big tobacco and stupid moms against vaping or whatever. The big tobacco companies what make these pod devices get more lenience obviously but they still couldn't get away with purposefully adding chemicals to it that are harmful.

But if you get your own fully-fledged, non-pod device, and buy liquid from a reputed liquid manufacturer, vaping is 100% for sure better and safer than:
  • cigarettes
  • pipe tobacco
  • smoking weed (joints, blunts, etc)
Because it simply has 4 ingredients:
  • PG
  • VG
  • Nicotine
  • Flavorings (highly regulated so that only flavors safe for inhalation are allowed)
These are just the facts. Obviously, I'm only talking about nicotine vaping. THC/CBD vaping does have several documented cases of health/lung issues, and that has more to do with poor standard for manufacturing THC oils and has nothing to do with nicotine vaping, but sadly, many people think that those incidents with THC/CBD vaping are the same as or similar to nicotine vaping, which is pure ignorance and couldn't be further from the truth.

Vaping is 90-99% safer than tobacco smoking and anyone who claims otherwise is simply delusional... there is no evidence to support a counterclaim.
Yes Juul did it for one
 

SkullTraill

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I’ve never had these issues when I started but then again I never got hooked
Yeah, I never said vaping was beneficial for your health. Just that it was at least 90% better than smoking. And that article doesn't dispute that.

Obviously, nicotine addiction and the heat for vapor aren't great for you...

But it's still way better than smoking.

I'd never recommended a non-smoker to get into vaping for no reason, but if you are a smoker, you're way better off vaping than smoking, that's all I'm saying.
 

Mider2009

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Yeah, I never said vaping was beneficial for your health. Just that it was at least 90% better than smoking. And that article doesn't dispute that.

Obviously, nicotine addiction and the heat for vapor aren't great for you...

But it's still way better than smoking.

I'd never recommended a non-smoker to get into vaping for no reason, but if you are a smoker, you're way better off vaping than smoking, that's all I'm saying.
The article says it’s really no better and just as addictive...IMO it didn’t start off as such
 

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I'm generally a fan of JHU, but this article isn't that great. Credit to them for pointing out that most cases of vaping related health issues and lung disease are caused by THC vaping and amatuer modification of vape liquid... but if you notice, the point where they state "vaping is as addictive as smoking" has no linked sources... because it's literally bullshit. Cigarettes are maybe as addictive as heroin and cocaine, but there have been no studies to prove that vaping is... hence, no sources linked in the article.

Just because FDA isn't sucking vaping's dick doesn't mean it's bad for you. Remember, FDA is the people who recommended oxycontin.

The only thing that's really accurate and proven from that article is that THC vaping causes lung issues, and a new generation of non-smokers is getting into vaping because it's "cool" which I strongly condemn.
 

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The article says it’s really no better and just as addictive...IMO it didn’t start off as such
Nobody should give a fuck what some dipshit writes in an article if there are no links to credible sources and/or peer-reviewed studies that are not sponsored by big tobacco. You can't just believe all the bullshit you read on the internet.
 

Mider2009

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Nobody should give a fuck what some dipshit writes in an article if there are no links to credible sources and/or peer-reviewed studies that are not sponsored by big tobacco. You can't just believe all the bullshit you read on the internet.
The Link is the source...John Hopkins is one of the top medical centers in the USA. They do medical research etc etc

also I’m well aware of bullshit
 

Mider2009

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I'm generally a fan of JHU, but this article isn't that great. Credit to them for pointing out that most cases of vaping related health issues and lung disease are caused by THC vaping and amatuer modification of vape liquid... but if you notice, the point where they state "vaping is as addictive as smoking" has no linked sources... because it's literally bullshit. Cigarettes are maybe as addictive as heroin and cocaine, but there have been no studies to prove that vaping is... hence, no sources linked in the article.

Just because FDA isn't sucking vaping's dick doesn't mean it's bad for you. Remember, FDA is the people who recommended oxycontin.

The only thing that's really accurate and proven from that article is that THC vaping causes lung issues, and a new generation of non-smokers is getting into vaping because it's "cool" which I strongly condemn.
Again they are the source
 

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Yeah nah... just because you're a famous university you don't get to "just say shit" that you havent tested. Some of that article is correct, and is what I've been saying anyways. The fact that they have not linked a study or shown any evidence for the claim that ecigs are "just as addictive" as normal cigarettes just shows they have no proof to back that statement up. It's bullshit. And even if it were true, "just as addictive" does not mean "just as bad".

The article says it’s really no better
It literally never says that.

US universities, and government agencies (FDA) have a long and cultured history of taking it up the ass and sucking dick of big corporations. That's why they now have to clearly mention if the study was entirely funded by a corporation (not good enough, but better than not knowing). The UK's NHS which doesn't take daily dickings from corporations is a much better source imo (being someone who is neither American nor British) but I understand you americans like your own institutions...

And honestly, JHU is actually a good university for medical (and other) research, and I have used their studies in my own academic work, and also in my own personal opinions, but as always, I never take things people say without a grain of salt. If someone wants to make a bold claim, then they have to show the proof of effort that they have researched it, or studied it. In an of itself that does not make them correct, but that's where you start. If there is no study, there is nothing to listen to.
 

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Yeah nah... just because you're a famous university you don't get to "just say shit" that you havent tested. Some of that article is correct, and is what I've been saying anyways. The fact that they have not linked a study or shown any evidence for the claim that ecigs are "just as addictive" as normal cigarettes just shows they have no proof to back that statement up. It's bullshit. And even if it were true, "just as addictive" does not mean "just as bad".


It literally never says that.

US universities, and government agencies (FDA) have a long and cultured history of taking it up the ass and sucking dick of big corporations. That's why they now have to clearly mention if the study was entirely funded by a corporation (not good enough, but better than not knowing). The UK's NHS which doesn't take daily dickings from corporations is a much better source imo (being someone who is neither American nor British) but I understand you americans like your own institutions...

And honestly, JHU is actually a good university for medical (and other) research, and I have used their studies in my own academic work, and also in my own personal opinions, but as always, I never take things people say without a grain of salt. If someone wants to make a bold claim, then they have to show the proof of effort that they have researched it, or studied it. In an of itself that does not make them correct, but that's where you start. If there is no study, there is nothing to listen to.
Well we’ll have to agree to disagree, sorry. You’re making assumptions that they didn’t test stuff.

a lot of what you're saying is true none the less we still have to trust these agencies for many things, many other countries don’t even have them.

but as I said I don’t agree with them about everything, they’re making an umbrella statement anout every product which is bs, also if they gave a shit the FDA would ban items like Juul and other crap they sell in America
 

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Well we’ll have to agree to disagree, sorry.
As an american it is your god given and proud right to stay ignorant.

You’re making assumptions that they didn’t test stuff.
No, I'm not, if they tested stuff they would link the studies like they did for (almost) every other point on that list. Also, this is not JHU, this is JH Medical, they could be a clinic for all I know. Also, the author isn't even remotely experienced in lung health/disease. He's a cardiovascular specialist, so heart and blood vessel related... which is of course related, but a heart specialist has a different agenda than a lung specialist.

a lot of what you're saying is true none the less we still have to trust these agencies for many things, many other countries don’t even have them.
Fair enough, but remember how much nonsense these universities and government institutions have spouted in the past. Majority of it may be correct, but they have been COMPLETELY wrong or corrupt enough times that if you're not ignorant, you'd want to know WHAT they did to come to a conclusion. Especially if you're not unintelligent, or especially if you feel strongly/passionate about the topic.

but as I said I don’t agree with them about everything, they’re making an umbrella statement anout every product which is bs, also if they gave a shit the FDA would ban items like Juul and other crap they sell in America
Juul is big enough now to give the FDA enough dick for them to leave them alone... but they did try to ban them.

So yeah, it's up to y'all to think rationally.
 

Mider2009

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As an american it is your god given and proud right to stay ignorant.


No, I'm not, if they tested stuff they would link the studies like they did for (almost) every other point on that list. Also, this is not JHU, this is JH Medical, they could be a clinic for all I know. Also, the author isn't even remotely experienced in lung health/disease. He's a cardiovascular specialist, so heart and blood vessel related... which is of course related, but a heart specialist has a different agenda than a lung specialist.


Fair enough, but remember how much nonsense these universities and government institutions have spouted in the past. Majority of it may be correct, but they have been COMPLETELY wrong or corrupt enough times that if you're not ignorant, you'd want to know WHAT they did to come to a conclusion. Especially if you're not unintelligent, or especially if you feel strongly/passionate about the topic.


Juul is big enough now to give the FDA enough dick for them to leave them alone... but they did try to ban them.

So yeah, it's up to y'all to think rationally.
i think people need research things themselves, it’s like with Covid, a million opinions yet only the ones who agree with the narrative are called factual.

Most people can’t think rationally, not saying I can. But even our so called brightest believe in nonsense hence why I’m not for democracy as it is
 

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i think people need research things themselves, it’s like with Covid, a million opinions yet only the ones who agree with the narrative are called factual.

Most people can’t think rationally, not saying I can. But even our so called brightest believe in nonsense hence why I’m not for democracy as it is
Yeah true. I'd be a hypocrite if I expected people to believe me blindly. Everyone should really do their own research and do what they feel is best for them. It might not be ideal, but forcing people is never the way to go imo.
 

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Honestly, there's probably some way inhaling anything other than air will affect your respiratory system, no matter what it is. Whether positively, negatively, or even in ways that are barely noticeable. I do feel like maybe the regulation around vapes could do with being taken more seriously, in the same way they should probably take a look at the vitamin industry. There's such a wild lack of consistency between products, because they aren't legally held to the same standards as food. They have a lot of leeway to potentially put all kinds of questionable shit in there, without listing the specifics on the package, and all the consumer can do is just trust the integrity of these companies. (At least last I checked, this was the case. Idk if the amount of regulation has changed in recent years, since this isn't something I go researching all the time)

There's also a lot of things put into peoples' bodies these days, whether legal or not, that we just have too little precise data to know about for the long-term health effects. Whether it's certain food dyes or preservatives, medications with a side effect that only kicks in for 5% of the population 60 years down the line, a vape or cigarette additive, etc. Studying how just about anything affects the body is such a complicated thing, because there's just so many factors to take into account. How much is safe? What other lifestyle factors or substances could be causing something to happen to a person? Does it only affect people who are genetically predisposed? Can you even 100% trust that a trial participant is reporting clear and accurate information to you? This is literally why there is so much controversy when it comes to whether just about anything is good for you, because correlation doesn't always equal causation. 100% of people who have drunk water will die at some point, but is water the cause?

TL;DR: I dunno, man. Could go either way, since science is complex and this shit's only been around a couple decades.
 

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Honestly, there's probably some way inhaling anything other than air will affect your respiratory system, no matter what it is. Whether positively, negatively, or even in ways that are barely noticeable. I do feel like maybe the regulation around vapes could do with being taken more seriously, in the same way they should probably take a look at the vitamin industry. There's such a wild lack of consistency between products, because they aren't legally held to the same standards as food. They have a lot of leeway to potentially put all kinds of questionable shit in there, without listing the specifics on the package, and all the consumer can do is just trust the integrity of these companies. (At least last I checked, this was the case. Idk if the amount of regulation has changed in recent years, since this isn't something I go researching all the time)

There's also a lot of things put into peoples' bodies these days, whether legal or not, that we just have too little precise data to know about for the long-term health effects. Whether it's certain food dyes or preservatives, medications with a side effect that only kicks in for 5% of the population 60 years down the line, a vape or cigarette additive, etc. Studying how just about anything affects the body is such a complicated thing, because there's just so many factors to take into account. How much is safe? What other lifestyle factors or substances could be causing something to happen to a person? Does it only affect people who are genetically predisposed? Can you even 100% trust that a trial participant is reporting clear and accurate information to you? This is literally why there is so much controversy when it comes to whether just about anything is good for you, because correlation doesn't always equal causation. 100% of people who have drunk water will die at some point, but is water the cause?

TL;DR: I dunno, man. Could go either way, since science is complex and this shit's only been around a couple decades.
You could apply this logic to literally anything, including vaccines, and even normal medicines. Nothing (literally nothing) is 100% safe and free of any side effects. No one is claiming that with vaping or anything else really. Just that it is way better for you than other forms of respiratory nicotine consumption.

I genuinely don't get people who say "well, vaping isn't 100% healthy so it shouldn't be promoted"... what kind of dumb shit is that. It shouldn't be promoted to non-smokers... sure, but when it's over 90% safer than cigarettes, it certainly should be promoted to smokers as a means of quitting smoking.

Chemotherapy, vaccines, diets, all kinds of medicines all have side effects, extreme in some cases... that doesn't mean they should be banned.

Even if there are serious side effects, as long as it affects under 1% of people, that still makes it an extremely valuable tool for the vast majority of people and should be encouraged.

"Decades" is enough time. Vaping has been around for at least 20 years, of which I've been a daily vaper for 10, and I know many others as well. Not a single person has faced a serious health issue that's on par with the health issues from smoking... We can't just wait 50 years for every single new technology/medical advancement that comes out. A couple of years of it working seemingly well enough is more than enough for every other type of medicine, including vaccines, and it's more than enough for vaping as well. The science of today shows that it is over 90% safer than smoking, so today we should promote it as an alternative to smoking, until later there are issues discovered, if at all.

At the end of the day, what we clearly know and understand today is that vaping is much, much safer than smoking, and so if anyone is already a smoker or 100% determined to start nicotine consumption, vaping is what I recommend and what anyone should recommend for them. Some potential future health risk 50 years down the line that there is no evidence for is NOT and NEVER will be a reasonable deterrent for a product that does not have the KNOWN health risks of cigarette smoking for even 5 years... so who's anyone to say 2 decades isn't enough when 2 decades of vaping has produced less health risks than even 10 years of regular smoking.

Ultimately, the opinions of non-smoking non-vaping normies should completely be disregarded.

If you're considering smoking/vaping or already are, the only thing you should care about is peer-reviewed studies that are not sponsored by big tobacco (directly or indirectly), the opinions of those who have switched from smoking to vaping, and your own personal research. Nothing else should matter to you.
 

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You could apply this logic to literally anything, including vaccines, and even normal medicines. Nothing (literally nothing) is 100% safe and free of any side effects. No one is claiming that with vaping or anything else really. Just that it is way better for you than other forms of respiratory nicotine consumption.

I genuinely don't get people who say "well, vaping isn't 100% healthy so it shouldn't be promoted"... what kind of dumb shit is that. It shouldn't be promoted to non-smokers... sure, but when it's over 90% safer than cigarettes, it certainly should be promoted to smokers as a means of quitting smoking.

Chemotherapy, vaccines, diets, all kinds of medicines all have side effects, extreme in some cases... that doesn't mean they should be banned.

Even if there are serious side effects, as long as it affects under 1% of people, that still makes it an extremely valuable tool for the vast majority of people and should be encouraged.

"Decades" is enough time. Vaping has been around for at least 20 years, of which I've been a daily vaper for 10, and I know many others as well. Not a single person has faced a serious health issue that's on par with the health issues from smoking... We can't just wait 50 years for every single new technology/medical advancement that comes out. A couple of years of it working seemingly well enough is more than enough for every other type of medicine, including vaccines, and it's more than enough for vaping as well. The science of today shows that it is over 90% safer than smoking, so today we should promote it as an alternative to smoking, until later there are issues discovered, if at all.

At the end of the day, what we clearly know and understand today is that vaping is much, much safer than smoking, and so if anyone is already a smoker or 100% determined to start nicotine consumption, vaping is what I recommend and what anyone should recommend for them. Some potential future health risk 50 years down the line that there is no evidence for is NOT and NEVER will be a reasonable deterrent for a product that does not have the KNOWN health risks of cigarette smoking for even 5 years... so who's anyone to say 2 decades isn't enough when 2 decades of vaping has produced less health risks than even 10 years of regular smoking.

Ultimately, the opinions of non-smoking non-vaping normies should completely be disregarded.

If you're considering smoking/vaping or already are, the only thing you should care about is peer-reviewed studies that are not sponsored by big tobacco (directly or indirectly), the opinions of those who have switched from smoking to vaping, and your own personal research. Nothing else should matter to you.
I'm not saying anything against vaping. I'm all for normal tobacco smokers switching to vaping as a good alternative. Hell, my dad tried that himself, and we encouraged him to keep at it. But by that point he was so far gone in his addiction to cigarettes, he never stuck with vapes. I've been seeing a looooooooot of people who haven't smoked a day in their life take up vaping, though. Even in high schools now, vapes have almost replaced the role of cigarettes for teenagers. In which case I'm just like, "Why?" Most of these kids never smoked, but started vaping because it looked cool.
 

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I'm not saying anything against vaping. I'm all for normal tobacco smokers switching to vaping as a good alternative. Hell, my dad tried that himself, and we encouraged him to keep at it. But by that point he was so far gone in his addiction to cigarettes, he never stuck with vapes. I've been seeing a looooooooot of people who haven't smoked a day in their life take up vaping, though. Even in high schools now, vapes have almost replaced the role of cigarettes for teenagers. In which case I'm just like, "Why?" Most of these kids never smoked, but started vaping because it looked cool.
Yeah, that I do agree on. A lot of dumb, impressionable kids think vaping is "cool" and pick it up. But that's the same with smoking and drinking as well. I always strongly discourage people who don't normally smoke from taking up vaping. Especially if they're just doing it to be cool or fit in.

But it's the same shit as alcohol and cigarettes. A lot of kids who wouldn't smoke pipe tobacco smoke cigarettes because they are more convenient, and a lot of kids who wouldn't start off on hard liquor if beer didn't exist still drink been and then become alcoholics eventually. In the same way, if vaping didn't exist, many (not all, maybe not even most) of these kids would be smoking cigarettes.

I'm actually personally, morally OK with some small percentage of kids who would normally have never smoked getting into vaping because on balance, more kids are being saved from the actual cancer that is cigarettes, and the few who would have never truly smoked cigs but still got into vaping aren't going to end up craving cigarettes eventually and switching to cigarettes as long as vaping exists, because vapes don't taste like shit.

So yeah, I strongly discourage kids from getting into smoking/vaping, but if they're gonna do one, they're way better of vaping. And a few extra kids getting into vaping for no good reason is never going to be an actual good excuse to ban vaping.
 

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Yeah, that I do agree on. A lot of dumb, impressionable kids think vaping is "cool" and pick it up. But that's the same with smoking and drinking as well. I always strongly discourage people who don't normally smoke from taking up vaping. Especially if they're just doing it to be cool or fit in.

But it's the same shit as alcohol and cigarettes. A lot of kids who wouldn't smoke pipe tobacco smoke cigarettes because they are more convenient, and a lot of kids who wouldn't start off on hard liquor if beer didn't exist still drink been and then become alcoholics eventually. In the same way, if vaping didn't exist, many (not all, maybe not even most) of these kids would be smoking cigarettes.

I'm actually personally, morally OK with some small percentage of kids who would normally have never smoked getting into vaping because on balance, more kids are being saved from the actual cancer that is cigarettes, and the few who would have never truly smoked cigs but still got into vaping aren't going to end up craving cigarettes eventually and switching to cigarettes as long as vaping exists, because vapes don't taste like shit.

So yeah, I strongly discourage kids from getting into smoking/vaping, but if they're gonna do one, they're way better of vaping. And a few extra kids getting into vaping for no good reason is never going to be an actual good excuse to ban vaping.
Kids shouldn’t be smoking 24/7 the anti tobacco nuts then use them on commercials saying LOOK WHAT VAPING DOES...really? What did you expect smoking every day all day?
 
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