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YT: ReligionForBreakfast - Aphantasia as an indicator of Atheism

MorganBlack

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Interesting.

This is probably not 100% correlated but aphantasia , a condition of not being able to visualize images in your mind, may cause start some people on the road to becoming atheists. Also correlated in part is not being able to form a theory of mind about other people.


Religion For Breakfast -The Real Reasons Why People Become Atheists

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I personally do not believe in "aphantasia". I used to "have it" when I began my occult journey and was capable of training myself to visualize. It took years and years of training to be able to visualize simple shapes but eventually was able to do it. I think that some people are more naturally inclined to be able to do it with greater detail but aphantasia as a hardlined "diagnosis" is not a real thing. If you see images when you dream then you can learn to visualize it just takes training. I think its just another one of those things people latch onto in order to label themselves. The mind is much more capable than most people give it credit for.
 

FireBorn

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I personally do not believe in "aphantasia". I used to "have it" when I began my occult journey and was capable of training myself to visualize. It took years and years of training to be able to visualize simple shapes but eventually was able to do it. I think that some people are more naturally inclined to be able to do it with greater detail but aphantasia as a hardlined "diagnosis" is not a real thing. If you see images when you dream then you can learn to visualize it just takes training. I think its just another one of those things people latch onto in order to label themselves. The mind is much more capable than most people give it credit for.
It is an actual phenomenon confirmed by science (then again, science has been wrong how many times now?). While it is not considered a "disorder" in the traditional sense, it is still a thing. In other words, its not just a skill gap. I wonder if you just learned to use different cognitive tools? Or if you didnt actually have Aphantasia. I liken it to the difference between having an inner voice and not having an inner voice. You cant just learn to not have an inner voice with practice.

Then again, I wish I could learn to "use different cognitive tools" to learn to visualize. I think it would be cool to be able to just see things at will in my head (if that's how it works).

I know there are currently studies on the correlation between Aphantasia and Neurodivergence. Nothing conclusive yet (probably meaning funding and Nobel prizes and shit) but there is strong evidence that the correlation is fairly consistent (evidence is not a solid finding, that's important here.)

Regarding Atheism and Aphantasia, I think the premise flattens Aphantasia. I dont believe in the Christian God, but not because I cannot visualize. Is there a correlation for some? Sure, but to use it any wider than that is speculation at best. I dont care how many slides you want to present lol. There is more to belief than visualization. How abotu feeling a presence? How about the third eye? How about nervous system responses to spirit presence in the room? Its way more than just visualization.

It does make it more challenging in some respects I will grant that all day. More challenging isn't a reason to pack your bags and call it a day, at least for me it isn't.

I am open to being wrong.
 

HellenaHex

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I have it. Some people have a mild form of it that can be trained to improve. I didn’t know the word for it until well into my adult life so that label couldn’t affect me. It’s just a part of who I am and yes I have tried actively to visualize but there is just darkness because my mind is wired differently and that’s fine. I’m also autistic and it often goes hand in hand with that.

Since I’m a graphic illustrator and sculptor it would be great to be able to visualize though and it would certainly be useful. I’ve always been able to lucid dream though and see spirits luckily. I often wonder how people who can visualize trust their spiritual interactions if they can imagine things so clearly. I wish I could experience it though. When I was told to imagine things as a child it always confused me how pretending to see something was helpful. I asked everyone about it but my mother also has it and didn’t realize that wasn’t just normal. So literally I was twenty seven when I finally learned that most people can actually see images in their heads. I am currently trying an alleged technique to train one’s self to visualize but I currently haven’t had results.

There is a thing called the Ganzflicker everyone here should try. It is a visual stimulus that can cause temporary, mild hallucinations by rapidly alternating two uniform Ganzfeld displays (like red and black) on a screen. It works by interacting with the brain's visual cortex to lower its sampling frequency, which can lead to simple pseudo-hallucinations like colors, lasers, or patterns. Complex hallucinations can also occur, and the intensity and type of experience vary based on the individual and the conditions under which it's viewed. If one sees no images or patterns it’s most likely they have Aphantasia because people with aphantasia are immune to its effect. It’s important that people with epilepsy don’t watch it though as it will cause seizures if you do. It was uncomfortable to watch even for me. It works best in a very dark room and on a big screen if you can.

I do like and get along with many atheist but I clearly believe in spirits and supernatural experiences since I’ve had very real encounters. 🦇✨
 

zamradiel

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That’s an interesting leap, but there’s no evidence linking aphantasia to atheism or lack of theory of mind. Aphantasia just means people don't form visual images... it doesn't affect symbolic reasoning, empathy, or capacity for belief. There are mystics, artists, and scientists across that spectrum.

This is probably not 100% correlated but aphantasia , a condition of not being able to visualize images in your mind, may cause start some people on the road to becoming atheists. Also correlated in part is not being able to form a theory of mind about other people.
 

Pixi

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My partner has Aphantasia but he has certainly felt the presence of spirits and is often more on target in a psychic sense than me often. Intestingly he often has what he calls very vivid dreams filled with visuals so I'd be interested in seeing more research on this .
 

Morell

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I personally do not believe in "aphantasia". I used to "have it" when I began my occult journey and was capable of training myself to visualize. It took years and years of training to be able to visualize simple shapes but eventually was able to do it. I think that some people are more naturally inclined to be able to do it with greater detail but aphantasia as a hardlined "diagnosis" is not a real thing. If you see images when you dream then you can learn to visualize it just takes training. I think its just another one of those things people latch onto in order to label themselves. The mind is much more capable than most people give it credit for.
I agree. I think that person without imagination would have to be a robot, because imagination is needed for understanding and learning... and for making art and in fact anything creative.

In fact, I think that when it comes to ability to imagine stuff and spirituality, it can be surprisingly both useful and problematic. Ability to imagine a spirit puts you into danger of fooling yourself with your imagination. It means that you can imagine spirit and delude yourself to think it to be genuine encounter. Person without this ability is still possible to sense spirits while not in such a danger of self-delusion. Pretty ironic.

Sensing spirit is about ability to use spiritual senses, imagination is your ability to dream stuff. I think that when it comes to atheism, people with intense use of imagination are more prone to become atheists, because they are the ones to find out that they were deluding themselves with their illusions and dreams.
 

HellenaHex

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I agree. I think that person without imagination would have to be a robot, because imagination is needed for understanding and learning... and for making art and in fact anything creative.

In fact, I think that when it comes to ability to imagine stuff and spirituality, it can be surprisingly both useful and problematic. Ability to imagine a spirit puts you into danger of fooling yourself with your imagination. It means that you can imagine spirit and delude yourself to think it to be genuine encounter. Person without this ability is still possible to sense spirits while not in such a danger of self-delusion. Pretty ironic.

Sensing spirit is about ability to use spiritual senses, imagination is your ability to dream stuff. I think that when it comes to atheism, people with intense use of imagination are more prone to become atheists, because they are the ones to find out that they were deluding themselves with their illusions and dreams.
Not being able to see pictures in my mind doesn’t mean I can’t be creative. You can have aphantasia and still be very imaginative, you just don’t see visuals. I’m far from being like a robot. It’s just like how people blind at birth experience their mind. There is only darkness. They aren’t robots just because they can’t visualize. It’s just different. But it does make it easy for me to know if what I’m seeing is real since I can’t just imagine what I want or visualize it. Though it would be nice to be able to do visualization techniques and useful for art I’m sure. 🦇✨
 

Morell

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Not being able to see pictures in my mind doesn’t mean I can’t be creative. You can have aphantasia and still be very imaginative, you just don’t see visuals. I’m far from being like a robot. It’s just like how people blind at birth experience their mind. There is only darkness. They aren’t robots just because they can’t visualize. It’s just different. But it does make it easy for me to know if what I’m seeing is real since I can’t just imagine what I want or visualize it. Though it would be nice to be able to do visualization techniques and useful for art I’m sure. 🦇✨
Aphantasia is just about not being able to see imagined with your mind? I don't think that anyone can have this limitation, at least not anyone who has dreams. How long can you keep the picture in your mind, that's another matter. I think that it's unused muscle issue.
 

HellenaHex

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I disagree as an artist and highly imaginative creative being by nature. I definitely use my mind and have practiced many forms of visualization for years and achieved nothing. I am studious and hard working and of course I would want to be able to see images in my head outside of dreaming so I have literally tried to for the past 30 years. This almost feels insulting honestly. Imagine being a child who is constantly being told to “imagine” or “visualize” things when you can’t and you are trying and being made to feel like a failure constantly by everyone your entire life. It’s cruel. If it were a question of me using my mind and putting in the effort I would easily be able to do it since my entire life I have been blessed and encouraged to pursue the arts, sciences, and spirituality. I love daydreaming and solving problems creatively but clearly my experience with it is different from those without aphantasia.

Currently genetic mechanisms underlying aphantasia are still being investigated, there is evidence to support the notion that it may have a genetic component. Individuals with aphantasia are more likely to have family members who also experience the condition (For me that’s my mother and a cousin), suggesting a familial pattern of inheritance. It also often occurs in people diagnosed with autism but isn’t always present. There are multiple types of aphantasia and I encourage everyone to actually research it in scholarly articles.

I personally have the most vivid dreams and have discussed lucid dreaming many times here on WF. People with aphantasia can dream, but their dreams are often different from those of people who can visualize. Many experience dreams that are more abstract, emotional, or auditory, rather than visual, and they may have difficulty recalling them later. However, some people with aphantasia like myself report having vivid visual dreams, suggesting the brain processes dreaming and conscious visualization in different ways.

There are two scientific theories for why that is currently. The first one is the simple fact of different brain processes. Visualizing while awake is a "top-down" process controlled by the cortex, while dreaming can involve more "bottom-up" processes organized by the brainstem. The second one is that aphantasia may not affect all parts of the brain equally. This difference in processing could explain why some people with aphantasia can still experience visual elements in their dreams even if they cannot voluntarily create a mental image.

According to science aphantasia is a neurocognitive condition where a person is unable to voluntarily create mental images. This does not mean they lack intelligence or motivation; in fact, many people with aphantasia lead successful, creative, and professional lives, and some may develop different cognitive strategies to compensate for their lack of visual imagery.

People with aphantasia have a different way of experiencing the world, not a lower intelligence. They can still think, reason, and be creative, sometimes excelling in areas like programming or abstract thinking.

Aphantasia is a neurological trait, not a result of a lack of effort. Individuals with aphantasia often have to work harder or find different methods to perform tasks that rely on visual memory.

Many people with aphantasia are successful artists, scientists, and professionals.

People with aphantasia may develop alternative strategies to compensate, such as using more verbal or conceptual methods for memory and problem-solving. Some may even have advantages in certain areas, like being less vulnerable to some mental disorders.

People with aphantasia cannot train themselves to see images because it is not a matter of a “weak” mental muscle, but rather a different neural wiring in the brain that prevents the voluntary generation of mental images. While their visual cortex may activate unconsciously when they try, the conscious experience of "seeing" with the mind's eye is not produced. Because this ability is absent from birth, or develops differently, there is no muscle to strengthen through practice.

How aphantasia differs from typical imagination:

  1. Absence of voluntary imagery: Aphantasia is defined by the inability to voluntarily create mental images, not a lack of imagination itself.
  2. Brain activity: Studies show that when people with aphantasia try to imagine an object, their visual cortex can activate, but the resulting brain activity doesn't lead to a conscious visual experience.
  3. Compensation: Aphantasia is not the same as "blindness" of the mind's eye; many people with aphantasia can and do use other cognitive skills, such as spatial memory and verbal processing, to compensate for the lack of visual imagery.
  4. Not a choice: Unlike a muscle that can be strengthened through exercise, the ability to form voluntary mental images is a neural process that is either present or absent, and does not respond to training or willpower.
 

MorganBlack

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Love it , love it!! Great stuff guys!

Thank you all for taking this in the spirit of all things and open exploration! I find that so refreshing.

I test as high Openness in the Big 5 Personality traits, and in the 90th percentile in Perceiving (vs Judging) in Myers-Briggs. So I'm highly allergic to linear deterministic arguments that are deployed only to shut down explorations. I almost never make totalizing arguments, unless I'm being deliberately argumentative. Which is rare. Only Sith speak in absolutes. (heh).

I am also highly visual and make mind palaces for my work in tech and entertainment, but I have long suspected 20th century magic has relied to much on our brain's visual processing systems.. all those glowing geometric shapes in the air. We have so many other ways to create meaning.

I am still explorng it but I currently suspect it's our inner sense of excitement and emotion (See Goddard's The Feeling in the Secret) tied to an inner sense of meaning / intent is my current model that's also more inclusive of other brains who are wired differently than mine. Where I differ with Goddard at this time: I think all emotions can trigger the Casual Whatever It Is, includes less positive emotions like anger, hatred, rage, as our more witchy brothers and sisters may have discovered.
 
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Love it , love it!! Great stuff guys!

Thank you all for taking this in the spirit of all things and open exploration! I find that so refreshing.

I test as high Openness in the Big 5 Personality traits, and in the 90th percentile in Perceiving (vs Judging) in Myers-Briggs. So I'm highly allergic to linear deterministic arguments that are deployed only to shut down explorations. I almost never make totalizing arguments, unless I'm being deliberately argumentative. Which is rare. Only Sith speak in absolutes. (heh).

I am also highly visual and make mind palaces for my work in tech and entertainment, but I have long suspected 20th century magic has relied to much on our brain's visual processing systems.. all those glowing geometric shapes in the air. We have so many other ways to create meaning.

I am still explorng it but I currently suspect it's our inner sense of excitement and emotion (See Goddard's The Feeling in the Secret) tied to an inner sense of meaning / intent is my current model that's also more inclusive of other brains who are wired differently than mine. Where I differ with Goddard at this time: I think all emotions can trigger the Casual Whatever It Is, includes less positive emotions like anger, hatred, rage, as our more witchy brothers and sisters may have discovered.
I deal with a lot of clients that get frustrated they "cant visualize" and so i just tell them they have another form of visualization. If I explain to them that theyre probably just good at imagining feelings or sounds instead of images then they easily accept my instruction to imagine a symbol or animal etc etc. I think people get hung up on the terminology because when I switch my vocabulary from "visualize a grassy meadow" to "feel a grassy meadow" they stop complaining about having aphantasia and are much more willing to engage their imagination.
 

KjEno186

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I'd call myself a "natural atheist" since no matter what I was taught as a child, I never felt a connection to the god I was told exists. When I look back on my early life, I realize I was just going through the motions to please my parents and the social group I had been indoctrinated into from an early age.

I cannot know how vividly others perceive visual images. I always was an avid reader from childhood on, and there were always mental pictures and scenes in my mind as I read books. Nothing was as vivid as waking reality, but it was certainly enough to provoke emotions in me. Name a television or movie star I know, and I'll "see" a brief mental picture of his or her face, for example.

And I can "play" music I know in my head If I know it well enough, though not a complete song in all its detail. There are often details that really stand out, but it doesn't reach the clarity of hearing in the moment.

If I can pinpoint anything that caused me to question my indoctrination, I would say it was cognitive dissonance. 2 + 2 != 5, no matter what religious tradition tries to insinuate. A literal reading of the Bible != reality as I have lived it. God is all powerful, but he needs humans to fight his battles. He needs your money to fund his priests. God is wise, but don't listen to apostates. God is love, but he'll kill you for your lack of faith.

"What does God need with a starship?" - Captain Kirk
 

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Impaired cognition will misinform someone to believe in something that doesn't exist and act like its there. As the video inadvertently showed socialization leads to theism through entrenched social display to authority. Which doesn't prove a transcendent God exists, it shows that social mechanisms can be influenced by imagination. LARPing.

Claiming that a lack of imagination leads someone to not believe in God seems like a lowkey claim that a false imagined transcendant God is real if one only had imagination. Instead of following that convoluted reasoning, occam's razor cuts through that fabrication to understanding that a transcendent God is a mistaken ancient idea constructed to understand reality and facilitate control over it.

That realization opens up to an undiscovered country. A discovery that there is no transcendent god and that aphantasia isn't an issue for aligning with the hyperdimensional cosmos and real immanent spiritual world.
 

MorganBlack

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There are two scientific theories for why that is currently. The first one is the simple fact of different brain processes. Visualizing while awake is a "top-down" process controlled by the cortex, while dreaming can involve more "bottom-up" processes organized by the brainstem. The second one is that aphantasia may not affect all parts of the brain equally.
Neat distinction. That tracks for me. I have two kinds of visualizing.

One is very deliberative, where I am using my mind like a big 4D interactive painting to plan and examine, and use visual thinking to explore subjects. Sort of like having a VR room in my head. This is where I spend much of my time professionally and personally, and information for me is very visually encoded, like a big mnemonic map. I use it as a tool to think about work projects, UI/UX design, or other visual tasks. If I am plotting a long trip I like haivng these in my head as a map.

The other form is when creating concept art , and is much more shamanic. I will go into an alpha state and enters a hypnogogic state where I am dreaming but also have some control over the dream, which I can "seed" with ideas and explore emergent patterns for art or visual design.

I was once working as a concept artist on a well-known game franchise , and in my office at work I'd turn down the lights and enter a dream where I was wandering though a fantastical environment for the game, looking for interesting patterns and subjects. After "dreaming out loud" I'd then jump up and sketch them. One time I forgot to turn off my office phone, it rang, and "poof" the most amazing dream was gone, never to return.

Aside from Neville Goddardian New Thought , I actually don't rely too much on this faculty in Goetia much. It's too inner "projecty" and just feels like work. Sometimes I will do it just to keep my brain occupied while saying prayers and invocations, but I do try to keep my visionary qualites to a minimum. It is all to easy to get wrapped up in astral forms, I feel. The things I feel are important are BEHIND the forms. And will use those forms to communicate.

I don't want to share too many of my visions, becasue I feel they are for me. But some time I will be "taken" to a place I named after a Clive Barker story, The Gyre, a place where I float above a roiling field of dark clouds below and a transcendent ocean of yellow-golden light above. The balance of Above and Below. Does it really exist? Not literally. But yet somewhere it does. The Crossroads of the Worlds.

The first time I was there I was like , "Pfft, how original. Feet in the hells, and head in the heavens, eh, subconscious?" ". In my view this is how my very visual central nervous system is interpreting some experience , whatever it is. I feel is a real place, probably exists in other dreams in other forms, but until I get someting more tangible out of it , if i don't get a feeling in my body afterwards, it's more like "Cool, story, bro."

If this was 20th century magic they'd make a pathworking for folks and sell it. I usually like, 'just use the grims.' Your subconious wil interpret the Sginal from Beyond in your own language. No need to use mine.

So wher to place it all. Visual + kinesthic feeling + results magic is where I place maximum "truth" for me. But feeling is probably more imprtant most of the time. Visions that's just a day at the office or regular life for me. I like it whe magic hits me and I feel it. Visions are just a bonus.
 

SkullTraill

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I personally do not believe in "aphantasia". I used to "have it" when I began my occult journey and was capable of training myself to visualize. It took years and years of training to be able to visualize simple shapes but eventually was able to do it. I think that some people are more naturally inclined to be able to do it with greater detail but aphantasia as a hardlined "diagnosis" is not a real thing. If you see images when you dream then you can learn to visualize it just takes training. I think its just another one of those things people latch onto in order to label themselves. The mind is much more capable than most people give it credit for.
Interesting take. I believe your argument is worth considering, because similarly to how in modern times, a lot of people simply say they have "autism" or "ADHD" or "OCD" without any actual diagnosis or testing done... compounded with the absolute ruinous state of the fields (or should we say industries) of psychology and psychiatry... I'm sure there are some people who simply find it hard to visualise things, and just self diagnose saying they have aphantasia.

That being said, I think aphantasia has been studied for quite some time now, and I believe there are genuine cases of it.

In my particular case (I'm guilty) I believe I have some mild form of aphantasia that's probably caused at least partly by lack of practice or environmental factors during childhood. It's genuinely difficult for me to even visualise a flame or apple in my mind, and most of my dreams are more narration than vivid visual experiences. However, I do think, like you said, that if I practiced/trained hard enough, I could unlock stronger visualisation abilities for myself.

In practice, though... it is difficult for me to visualise things right now so I put off occult/religious practices that rely on it.

So I do think @MorganBlack's point in the OP can have some truth to it.
 

MorganBlack

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This whole conversation has been so incredibly intelligent and useful. Thank you all so much!

I love how we can expand away a bit from over-indexing on our visual systems. That's super inclusive. But it was HellenaHex's research on the brainstem, was just one of those amazing moments, and has given me a hint of more to explore . The idea it's involved in deep dreaming appears to correlate with my hypothesis in ritual we are activating, in part, our hind-brain, limbic system, instinctual self, or something to bridge to whatever the hell is going on.

To my view this Qoph / Moon card / Back of head / Instinctual self / brain stem is why, in part, why we do sorcerous things like give offerings, and which makes humans so special. I get it makes no sense to hard atheists (no God, or gods, or spirits) but if it helps them, it can be seen as just what we humans do. Pulling back from an animist universe a little bit, it may be a way of activating this instinctual human layer as part of what we bring to the table.
 

KjEno186

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most of my dreams are more narration than vivid visual experiences.
Now that is interesting. Have you ever tried keeping a dream diary? Have you ever had lucid dreams? Lucid dreams are a rarity for me, but my dreams are usually quite visual and even tactile, if I take note of such things.

Last night I was dreaming about being in a huge factory. I was supposed to be working there, but I knew so little about the place that I was mostly just observing. There was something wrong with an air circulation unit. It was supposed to be a clean room, but some sensor detected particulate contamination. I seemed to see a 'haze' of sorts emanating from one area and pointed it out. As often happens, I started to fly around to get from one area to another. As also happens, the environment gradually changed. I was in a different part of the factory. Then in another dream I was in an apartment. There had been some kind of damage, and a guy who was supposed to fix it hadn't finished his work. I pulled on pieces of wood exposed in a section of a wall. None of these places resembled anything in my waking reality nor any memories of places.
 

SkullTraill

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Now that is interesting. Have you ever tried keeping a dream diary? Have you ever had lucid dreams? Lucid dreams are a rarity for me, but my dreams are usually quite visual and even tactile, if I take note of such things.

Last night I was dreaming about being in a huge factory. I was supposed to be working there, but I knew so little about the place that I was mostly just observing. There was something wrong with an air circulation unit. It was supposed to be a clean room, but some sensor detected particulate contamination. I seemed to see a 'haze' of sorts emanating from one area and pointed it out. As often happens, I started to fly around to get from one area to another. As also happens, the environment gradually changed. I was in a different part of the factory. Then in another dream I was in an apartment. There had been some kind of damage, and a guy who was supposed to fix it hadn't finished his work. I pulled on pieces of wood exposed in a section of a wall. None of these places resembled anything in my waking reality nor any memories of places.
I haven’t kept a dream diary ever. And actually since I’ve been consuming quite a bit of nicotine in recent years, and have a kind of messed up sleep schedule, I almost never remember dreams when I wake up. It’s very rare — mostly on days where I got really good sleep. I dream (or recall dreams) maybe once every 2 months.

I’ve never had a lucid dream. My dreams are almost similar to what you have described. Usually there’s some kind of problem/tragedy/catastrophe that I need to solve, and if I do, it’s a good dream, if I don’t it ends up a nightmare and I wake up. Whatever the dream, there are only about 3-5 moments of visual sensation or memory in the dream. The rest of it is entirely “narration”, which I put in quotation marks because it’s not a 3rd person or voice that’s narrating it, but more just an internal monologue. More like thoughts. How I think when faced with a problem irl. That kind of “thought” is what I experience in the dream… with a few freeze-frame-like images.

It’s kind of difficult to explain haha
 
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