Suggestions for that annoying sceptic

[Kellhuss]

Imagine you're discussing magick with someone you know to be a sceptic; you usually avoid the issue given your friend's tendency to dismiss out of hand the topic. This time though, they seem a bit more interested, but still find the idea of magick highly questionable.

For a moment it seems as though you might have them considering something, but can see you're about to lose them. Given your friend's scepticism, you think that giving them a practical task to try themselves might actually be worthwhile.

You lean forward, getting their attention, and say:

'Actually, why don't you just try. . . '

Well? What would your direction be here?

 

[Robert Ramsay]

"Buying my book"

The demo I give at my talk is the Necker Cube. I describe it as "the tiniest piece of magic you can do" and challenge them to stop the cube flipping orientation as they look at it.

 

[Kellhuss]

"Buying my book"

The demo I give at my talk is the Necker Cube. I describe it as "the tiniest piece of magic you can do" and challenge them to stop the cube flipping orientation as they look at it.

Nice; that’s a great example as a lead into the issue of direct / naive realism and how intention apparently has external perceptual effects; an excellent base to build from.

 

[Robert Ramsay]

Nice; that’s a great example as a lead into the issue of direct / naive realism and how intention apparently has external perceptual effects; an excellent base to build from.

incidentally, I found one bug - you need two different sizes on the screen - if people are too close, they can't get the effect.

 

[HoldAll]

I read the following saying somewhere: "Tell a man you'll build him a house, and he'll laugh in your face. Tell him you'll burn his house down, and he'll fear you." What I've noticed around people who think that magic, witchcraft, astrology, etc. are nothing but ridicoulous superstition is that they'll nevertheless be at least slightly apprehensive about stuff that could potentially harm them, e.g. instinctively shunning a person considered to be 'bad news' around the village where I grew up, older people reminding younger ones boastful of their good fortunes not to tempt fate, knocking on wood and so on.

So if mere arguments won't convince sceptics, you could offer to curse them instead - and enjoy the perplexed reactions.

 

[Robert Ramsay]

I read the following saying somewhere: "Tell a man you'll build him a house, and he'll laugh in your face. Tell him you'll burn his house down, and he'll fear you." What I've noticed around people who think that magic, witchcraft, astrology, etc. are nothing but ridicoulous superstition is that they'll nevertheless be at least slightly apprehensive about stuff that could potentially harm them, e.g. instinctively shunning a person considered to be 'bad news' around the village where I grew up, older people reminding younger ones boastful of their good fortunes not to tempt fate, knocking on wood and so on.

So if mere arguments won't convince sceptics, you could offer to curse them instead - and enjoy the perplexed reactions.

As a friend of mine said to a child that was annoying him: "I've put a monster under your bed."

 

[jzatopa]

Make a bet with them. Ask them if they will do Kundalini yoga in the morning and evening for 3 months to a year. Make the bet juicy. Then ask them to read the Sefer Yetzirah and Tao te Ching as part of it - Bardon's IIH if they will go that far and include that. At the end, if they don't have any results, they win. No lying, no cheating, a % of missed days is acceptable but not to many.

If not that, get them initiated into Kriya yoga, take a class at ISTA or something similar. They will thank you for it.

 

[jbyer]

Similar to the cube concept, you can show them some "if you can read this" text and talk about how that is only possible because it is not you reading it.

 

[nargile57]

Ignore them, they are wasting your valuable time and stealing your energy. Like talking to a brick wall.

 

[borbponderer]

You can frame it in psychological terms, for example Jungian Psychology. That's often a bit more palatable for the more open minded type of skeptic.

Post automatically merged: Thursday at 9:31 PM

Alan Moore has a good handle on it. Frame it as Magick=Art. That pulls the rug from under their often unconscious assumption that magic is making pseudoscientic claims that they are obliged to debunk.

 

[Splay31]

Why does it matter what they think?

 

[borbponderer]

Why does it matter what they think?

If they are doing it to be pig-headed and contrary then it really doesn't matter. But if you are dealing with an otherwise reasonable individual you might have a productive or interesting conversation.

 

[Taudefindi]

It all depends on where their skepticism lies.

For example, a person can be 100% skeptic of anything that isn't cold and hard science, or be skeptic of certain claims like psychics but still believe in certain superstitions. Or doubt about witches but believe fervently in an all mighty peeping god.

Depending on their level of skepticism, you deal with it accordingly.

 

[Ohana]

Be grateful there skeptical unless that skepticism comes with immediately not trusting or disliking anyone who practices magick. Then, just don't mention it around them. Another case is if they're trustworthy and curious but still skeptical then recommend a ritual to try out.

I know this one from a while ago where you put whatever is currently troubling you on a piece of paper then ask for it to go away then find a safe way to set the paper ablaze.

 

[FireBorn]

Speaking of skeptics, most people tend to be skeptical about magick, right up until they think you will put a curse or hex on them haha. Funny how that works eh?

 

[Robert Ramsay]

If they are doing it to be pig-headed and contrary then it really doesn't matter.

"I can't help what you think"

 

[stalkinghyena]

First, I tend to ask if the annoying skeptic even knows what they are talking about or denying. There's likely a whole inner epistemology that could unraveled by simply questioning the "self evident".

It's like peeling back the shell of a nut to get to the soft core. Layer by layer the denier's defenses are stripped away until the inner child is revealed for reprogramming.

 

[Robert Ramsay]

This is why I start my presentation with talking about what magic is, and what it is not. Books and films etc. have given a totally unrealistic picture of fireballs, animated brooms etc.

In the words of Bill S. Preston esq.: "We were heinously lied to, by our album covers!"

 

[MorganBlack]

What I've noticed around people who think that magic, witchcraft, astrology, etc. are nothing but ridicoulous superstition is that they'll nevertheless be at least slightly apprehensive about stuff that could potentially harm them, e.g. instinctively shunning a person considered to be 'bad news'

This! Only a few people know for my occult interests, including childhood friend who broke my wish for privacy and secrecy with people he knew. Many years ago, one of them confronted me at a party to try to ridicule my interests.

I tried to blow him off, but he kept pushing. In a fit of irritation, I told him "Okay, fine, care to test your theory ? Give me a lock of your hair and permission to destroy your life, and just using occult means I will. " They looked shocked and shut up, probably becasue they thought I was crazy.

(Not that i actually needed their hair, if I have met them personally. I just wanted them invested. And a marker for their cowardice.)

For his own comfort he needed to "explain" was very possibly insane, but underneath, the hind-brain world of the liminal and paranormal High Strangeness is always there (for certain kinds of magic) . An excellent section from Hyatt and Black's Pacts with the Devil:
-----------------------------------------------

Some sociologists see magic’s reemergence as a warning sign that a
civilization is entering a crisis period. But while magic may signal that our
culture is in “trouble” it doesn’t mean that magic is only a signal for
cultures in trouble. Magic existed long before sociologists and served man
more faithfully than these pseudo-scientific explanations about the
meaning of magic.

Modern people often ignore the psychological importance of the magical
gesture. Or do they?

In fact the brain is structured in such a way that events which follow
each other or look similar are assumed to be connected or causative. It has
taken humans thousands of years to see, even if for a moment, cause and
effect differently. Yet, there is a reason why events which follow each
other or are similar are seen as connected. The human brain knows that
“cause” is less important than survival. If you see “a many spotted thing”
in the jungle, don’t wait. Run in the opposite direction.

While our public image is rational, scientific and religious our actual
day-to-day experience is magical. We have strong feelings about certain
things like blood, nude bodies, our genitals, birth, death, food and hair.
Each of us have mini-cosmologies built around ourselves and family. Many
of us think in terms of luck or chance rather than cause and effect. Most of
us are so deeply affected by our developmental circumstances that we only
give lip service to rationality, logic and religious beliefs. In some non-
verbal way all of us sense how the world really works. Most of us ignore
the reality of death believing, especially if we are young, that we are
personally immune from death, ill fortune and disease.

 

[Taudefindi]

Books and films etc. have given a totally unrealistic picture of fireballs, animated brooms etc.

Funnily enough though, this "flamboyant" kind is the one many skeptics secretly wish it was real (and that they could do it), reason why you see some of them becoming magicians or learning magic just for themselves.

Despite prefering facts, many do desire the fantasy even if they deny it.