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I’ve been practicing the Art for a while now, with both good and bad experiences along the way, and I wanted to ask what you guys see as the pros and cons of joining the O.T.O.
I tend to be pretty ceremonial with my practice, but I’m also quite pragmatic when I need to be. I’d be really interested to hear your thoughts and experiences, especially from those who have actually been involved with the O.T.O.
I've never joined an order and have mixed feelings about it. In some ways, I like the idea of structure, mentorship, community, group ritual, access to material or experience that is harder to get alone, ppl being around who are actually doing work rather than armchair occultists, etc. On the...
Another good video from Cults to Consciousness, now revealing how OTO higher degrees actually work. Worth learning about.
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The thing is, 'joining' the OTO would be joining a 'Local Body' of the Order and they are all OTO * but have a different focus . type, 'Master' , etc. So some might suit you and others might not .
General pros and cons relate to you personally ; what you want and where you want to go . Its hard to answer your question, relevant to you, without that information .
* meaning they are all regulated to be the same as far as initiation rituals , EGC , constitution and safety regulations , etc. Some then have an interest or focus on things outside of those eg. our group was more 'thespian' and focused highly on the 'dramatic ritual' context ; setting costume furniture , well rehearsed and know your part by heart , regarding the imitation rituals and our long time performance of The Rites of Eleuysis ' . We had a good astrologer who gave classes in casting and reading your own chart, a yoga teacher and a strong rural environmental and indigenous association. Other groups were city based , focused on other things ( eg 'Enochian' ) , Some didnt seem interested in performance and read off scripts and got involved in other 'arts' . Some (internationally) had an interest in 'Vodoun' , some in Norse mythology .
From observations of OTO members it's a good group to join if you're wanting to entrench yourself as a self-glorifying, sanctimonious, hypocrite avoiding self-awareness and personal accountability behind a pretense of personal sovereignty and spiritual advancement.
From observations of OTO members it's a good group to join if you're wanting to entrench yourself as a self-glorifying, sanctimonious, hypocrite avoiding self-awareness and personal accountability behind a pretense of personal sovereignty and spiritual advancement.
Nope, you got that wrong. No personal stories, only direct observations over a few months in the 2000s and online over the years that support it.
Can watch it happen in real time if you're aware of it.
Nope, you got that wrong. No personal stories, only direct observations over a few months in the 2000s and online over the years that support it.
Can watch it happen in real time if you're aware of it.
So, another made-up bias based on (barely any) anecdotal evidence, but said as a 100% truthful objective reality. Cool.... Cool, cool, cool.... So cool...
So, another made-up bias based on (barely any) anecdotal evidence, but said as a 100% truthful objective reality. Cool.... Cool, cool, cool.... So cool...
If you join there's a slight possibility you might encounter Lon Milo Duquette at some point. I met him once and found him to be extremely cool and down to earth! -->
For a real eye opener type of intro you might try to find the book "The black Lodge of Santa Cruz"!
I think it was in the library here, at least at one time, stuff gets taken down , et al. If you read that book you will "definitely"
have something to think about! I enjoyed the Hell out of it personally! Copies of it "were" widely available on the net and
may still be. I recommend reading it prior to any decision you might make!
Post automatically merged:
Can't edit my damn typo! Search for: "The Black Lodge of Santa Cruz" .
The thing is, 'joining' the OTO would be joining a 'Local Body' of the Order and they are all OTO * but have a different focus . type, 'Master' , etc. So some might suit you and others might not .
General pros and cons relate to you personally ; what you want and where you want to go . Its hard to answer your question, relevant to you, without that information .
* meaning they are all regulated to be the same as far as initiation rituals , EGC , constitution and safety regulations , etc. Some then have an interest or focus on things outside of those eg. our group was more 'thespian' and focused highly on the 'dramatic ritual' context ; setting costume furniture , well rehearsed and know your part by heart , regarding the imitation rituals and our long time performance of The Rites of Eleuysis ' . We had a good astrologer who gave classes in casting and reading your own chart, a yoga teacher and a strong rural environmental and indigenous association. Other groups were city based , focused on other things ( eg 'Enochian' ) , Some didnt seem interested in performance and read off scripts and got involved in other 'arts' . Some (internationally) had an interest in 'Vodoun' , some in Norse mythology .
One thing I forgot to ask you was is the OTO basically the same kind of organisational structure/people as the Freemasons but with magick/thelema and women?
If you join there's a slight possibility you might encounter Lon Milo Duquette at some point. I met him once and found him to be extremely cool and down to earth! -->
I believe that 100% He's always seemed pretty grounded and easy going in his yt vids. He's also got to be one of the best occult authors I've ever read in terms of clarity (and humour).
If you join there's a slight possibility you might encounter Lon Milo Duquette at some point. I met him once and found him to be extremely cool and down to earth! -->
For a real eye opener type of intro you might try to find the book "The black Lodge of Santa Cruz"!
I think it was in the library here, at least at one time, stuff gets taken down , et al. If you read that book you will "definitely"
have something to think about! I enjoyed the Hell out of it personally! Copies of it "were" widely available on the net and
may still be. I recommend reading it prior to any decision you might make!
Post automatically merged:
Can't edit my damn typo! Search for: "The Black Lodge of Santa Cruz"
Reading "The Black Lodge of Santa Cruz" will also illustrate how one "local body" of an order can vary from another local body while ostensibly coexisting under the same umbrella, i.e., OTO Thelema. Though the focus is on The Black Lodge, it presents an "Atypical" example.
Will your chosen local body offer you a similar experience? Doubtful, though one shouldn't rule it out perhaps!
The benefits of joining the OTO, I'm assuming you mean the Caliphate, is that you will begin work, by that I mean you will be given basic rituals to perform daily, start studying a bit more, your chakras will start to become activated through daily practices, you will get to meet others of similar commitment and make new friends, and will get opportunities to participate in group rituals and quarterly meetings.
The downside is cost and annual subs, which to begin with are really nothing, but as you move up through the grades the cost goes even higher and higher.
So, another made-up bias based on (barely any) anecdotal evidence, but said as a 100% truthful objective reality. Cool.... Cool, cool, cool.... So cool...
Well ... maybe he met and encountered some like that .
Ya know I could say ; '' Wizard forum is full of psychiatric medicated demon evokers . But that leaves out the intelligent balanced practitioners .
People are people - regardless of the organisation .... a bunch of loonies with a few scattered gems
or as someone once said regarding magical orders and groups (or any group really ) ;
'' If you know of a group with no bad members that has a leader with no faults .... please tell me who they are ! ! ! ''
My experience , my personal experience over the years , I have met some gems in the OTO . I have met more arseholes in other aspects of my life ; like in work or in everyday 'community' .
Well, you did say ; '' only direct observations over a few months '' thats not really comprehensive . I mean, was it a localized experience in one area ; what was the context eg , general or a specific issue which might have caused your opinion .... like you were drunk driving and smashed into their HQ (ok thats just my sense of humor , but I think you get what I mean ) . Or was it an intensive cross section of people where you traveled about and met many of them under different circumstances 'over a few months ' ?
And over the internet ? Well ........ all sorts of people claim all sorts of stuff on the internet .
But I spent A LOT MORE time around them than a 'few weeks' ... years , and all over the place too . So that point doesnt really hold up .
Like you met a few you didnt like .
he met one he did .
I met a LOT , some I liked, some I didn't . Let's not let our limited experiences get in the way ... or if we do, let's give them equal validity , for each person's situation .
If you join there's a slight possibility you might encounter Lon Milo Duquette at some point. I met him once and found him to be extremely cool and down to earth! -->
For a real eye opener type of intro you might try to find the book "The black Lodge of Santa Cruz"!
I think it was in the library here, at least at one time, stuff gets taken down , et al. If you read that book you will "definitely"
have something to think about! I enjoyed the Hell out of it personally! Copies of it "were" widely available on the net and
may still be. I recommend reading it prior to any decision you might make!
Post automatically merged:
Can't edit my damn typo! Search for: "The Black Lodge of Santa Cruz" .
One thing I forgot to ask you was is the OTO basically the same kind of organisational structure/people as the Freemasons but with magick/thelema and women?
In one way yes ... in another no . The people ; mostly - but with your magick/thelema qualifications . In some areas there are many similarities .
One difference is the structure of Lodges ; OTO has preliminary bodies before Lodges ; Camp and Oasis ( local bodies ) . There are other constitutional differences . They are very much the same as far as 'method' goes - ritual drama enactment ; where the story of a 'God' , hero or mythical character (or in the case of OTO ) or an inspirational / aspirational person , is acted out , with the initiate being a central character , playing a part that is mostly unknown to them until the ceremony unfolds .
The gender restriction thing is VERY different , in that a woman can be a local body / Lodge master and initiator .
I believe that 100% He's always seemed pretty grounded and easy going in his yt vids. He's also got to be one of the best occult authors I've ever read in terms of clarity (and humour).
Reading "The Black Lodge of Santa Cruz" will also illustrate how one "local body" of an order can vary from another local body while ostensibly coexisting under the same umbrella, i.e., OTO Thelema. Though the focus is on The Black Lodge, it presents an "Atypical" example.
Will your chosen local body offer you a similar experience? Doubtful, though one shouldn't rule it out perhaps!
You realize this 'black lodge' was not OTO ... it was not an official OTO local body , nor chartered by OTO to anything .
The basic story was ... a lot of what the OTO was accused of , was in the 'old OTO' going back 30-40 years ago . After the 'hippy drug and sex era' it got cleaned up and regulated , causing rebellion of those that wanted to maintain that , some conformed and changed (for the better ) and some broke away and continued in what ever unregulated form that they did , with no body regulating them , just the individuals themselves .
The benefits of joining the OTO, I'm assuming you mean the Caliphate, is that you will begin work, by that I mean you will be given basic rituals to perform daily,
You are ? The OTO doesnt give out rituals to practice . Just the initiation rityuals to perform and the Gnostic Mass , if that is what you mean .
However they USED to do that , under some individuals giving out 'guidance' , or maybe under the personal 'mentorship' of someone , it's not an official thing though .
Interesting, I've mostly seen them as the party going sort, who seemed to have no interest in the occult at all.
All of them seemed to drink, party and play pool at the lodge. Nobody seemed serious about anything but who knows maybe they were. The only thing they seemed to consistently care about was their annual charity drive and members fees to maintain their party lodge, with a pool lol.
Maybe this was true of them back in the day, but in today's age the odd fellows are sort a drunken riff raff lol - I like them though.
In one way yes ... in another no . The people ; mostly - but with your magick/thelema qualifications . In some areas there are many similarities .
One difference is the structure of Lodges ; OTO has preliminary bodies before Lodges ; Camp and Oasis ( local bodies ) . There are other constitutional differences . They are very much the same as far as 'method' goes - ritual drama enactment ; where the story of a 'God' , hero or mythical character (or in the case of OTO ) or an inspirational / aspirational person , is acted out , with the initiate being a central character , playing a part that is mostly unknown to them until the ceremony unfolds .
The gender restriction thing is VERY different , in that a woman can be a local body / Lodge master and initiator .
Well, you did say ; '' only direct observations over a few months '' thats not really comprehensive . I mean, was it a localized experience in one area ; what was the context eg , general or a specific issue which might have caused your opinion .... like you were drunk driving and smashed into their HQ (ok thats just my sense of humor , but I think you get what I mean ) . Or was it an intensive cross section of people where you traveled about and met many of them under different circumstances 'over a few months ' ?
Attending Mass would be the most obvious guess, and the correct one, but that would be too normal and wouldn't serve the ploy of your remarks.
As for evaluating a group in a few months, it doesn't take that long to see what an organized group of people are about and what kind of people get wrapped into it. It wouldn't take more than a short time to learn about the people that stay in anti-abortionist groups or Ducks Unlimited.
Indeed, members of OTO online will make positive things up and minimize their group's faults to make it appear benign and beneficial. Identifying ploys cults use to try to undermine critics is one way to see through their claims and get to the intent and quality of the individual.
