[Official] Upcoming changes to the library. Discuss.

[SkullTraill]

I'm going to outline an upcoming change to the library. Sometime in the near future, I will be changing the access requirements for the library section. Feel free to discuss and share your thoughts in this thread.

What will change​

There will be minimum post/account age requirements to post in the library, and rather than give a text wall to explain it, here's how the system will check to see if you can access the library:

1. Are you a Benefactor? If yes, you have access to the library, if no:
2. Have you ever posted a book share? If yes, you have access to the library, if no:
3. Have you made 10 posts in the occult sections? If yes, you have access to the library, if no:
4. Have you been registered on WF for at least one week? If yes:
   1. Have you made at least 1 post in the occult sections in the last week? If yes, you have access to the library, if no:
5. If you have none of the above, you do not have access to the library.

So essentially, you need to either have posted at least one book share, made 10 posts in total in the occult sections, been registered for at least one week and made 1 post in an occult section, or be Benefactor in order to access the library.

The individual details may be fine tuned over time.

Why is this happening?​

Two main reasons, firstly, I simply don't want WF to be a file share focused site. It's nice to have the library as a supplement to out discussions, and as a service to help spread as much awareness and knowledge of the occult as possible, but the primary goal is to do that via discussions as a forum. I can see that there are thousands of people per year just joining WF to download books and contribute nothing. While I have no hard feelings about that, the concern is that WF will end up primarily being used as a file sharing site, which it is not, and was never intended to be.

Secondly, I want to encourage more active discussion about occult topics rather than just pointing people towards books. Yes, I understand the concern that this will lead to a spike in low quality posting from people who just join the site and want to spam out the post requirement ASAP to get to the book they want to download, but I strongly believe we can counteract this with measures such as requiring a minimum character count in posts made in the occult section (which is something I've been thinking about doing for a while anyway). Not to mention, we have an extremely competent staff roster, who if they express such a desire, can be expanded with new staff members. I also personally believe that a lot of the people coming on WF looking for specific books are people who are already dabbling in or experienced in the occult, and who aren't contributing because they simply don't have to. I've been made aware by some that we could potentially lose out on some members who would contribute much later on of their own free will after downloading a book from WF, but there isn't strong evidence of that in the metrics (that it would outweigh the amount of people who are introverted or lazy who would contribute if they had to).

Also, if it turns out that this ends up causing more trouble than it's worth, it would be easy to undo and go back to business as usual.

Why allow Benefactors to access the library? Is this a cash grab?​

I assure you no one is going to be paying $4 to download one PDF. This is simply because it would be unethical to bar parts of the site from people who are actually paying to keep WF running.

Is this the makings of a plan to remove the library from WF?​

No, there is no such plan. I love having the library on WF - but to help our members educate themselves on the occult so that we can have more in-depth and meaningful discussions about occult topics to further WF's ultimate goal of being a community that focuses on bringing more people into the occult, and bringing more occult knowledge to as many people as possible. WF is not a library, WF is a forum with a library.

 

[Mystic_friend]

this is just going to incentivize spamming low-quality replies by newcomers

Post automatically merged: Yesterday at 6:42 PM

or something

 

[SkullTraill]

this is just going to incentivize spamming low-quality replies by newcomers

Post automatically merged: Yesterday at 6:42 PM

or something

Easy fix:

 

[Anziel_Merkaba]

I really don't have much of an opinion. Personally I'd change number 4 and just not let people who haven't been members for less than a month have access at all, but everything else is alright I guess.

 

[Mystic_friend]

Easy fix:

but then that'll drive off newcomers, unless you want that

 

[SkullTraill]

but then that'll drive off newcomers, unless you want that

Think about which newcomers would be driven off. The ones that didn't want to post and posted something really low quality just to get a file. Would those kinds of users be useful to WF or the community in any way? No, right? If anything it'd be easy to weed them out this way.

 

[Mystic_friend]

Think about which newcomers would be driven off. The ones that didn't want to post and posted something really low quality just to get a file. Would those kinds of users be useful to WF or the community in any way? No, right? If anything it'd be easy to weed them out this way.

but you see newcomers are usually people who are new to this stuff, so they'd wanna check out the library first so that they can learn about the stuff they're practicing but they'd need to post 10 things first so they'd post low quality replies bcuz they dont know anything, so you're blacklisting people who wanna learn and people who have a lot of hidden potential they haven't unlocked yet

 

[SkullTraill]

people who are new to this stuff, so they'd wanna check out the library first so that they can learn about the stuff they're practicing

There's a lot of good content on WF itself, outside the library. Spending a little time reading the site would help in crafting a meaningful question that could be answered by more experienced people and that post would remain on WF for all time for plenty of other people to benefit from.

library first

WF is a forum first, and a library second.

 

[Mystic_friend]

WF is a forum first, and a library second.

yea yea you and I get that but the newcomers dont

There's a lot of good content on WF itself, outside the library. Spending a little time reading the site would help in crafting a meaningful question that could be answered by more experienced people and that post would remain on WF for all time for plenty of other people to benefit from.

see but the thing is that if they're looking for something specific they would only be able to find it in der library

anyways i get why you're doing this, but this seems kinda aggressive tbh

 

[no_wave_9212]

I'm relatively new, and the library was one of the last things that I found. I came here from Reddit initially. The library is awesome and it's helping me out now since I'm not able to pay for books right now, or find them in my library. But I'm not opposed to there being rules, why not? I'll become more vocal and hopefully learn some stuff from adding to the discussions.

 

[Vandheer]

Definitely not a bad idea after that recent incident with the author.

 

[SkullTraill]

yea yea you and I get that but the newcomers dont


see but the thing is that if they're looking for something specific they would only be able to find it in der library

anyways i get why you're doing this, but this seems kinda aggressive tbh

I get what you mean and thanks for sharing your POV. I’ve done me best to make the requirements as unaggressive as possible. The whole point of doing it is so that eventually the content and community on WF itself will rival the library.

It is a bit of an egg vs hen type scenario, but I’m hoping it will lead to a better experience, better community and closer alignment with WF’s vision at least in the long term.

If not, hey, could undo it. Also I’ll put up plenty of notices and guides so that new users are informed of the procedure and why it exists.

I'm relatively new, and the library was one of the last things that I found. I came here from Reddit initially. The library is awesome and it's helping me out now since I'm not able to pay for books right now, or find them in my library. But I'm not opposed to there being rules, why not? I'll become more vocal and hopefully learn some stuff from adding to the discussions.

Thank you very much. I was especially interested in hearing feedback from new members and I’m glad to see you understand!

 

[Sabbatius]

I, for one, support our Wizard Forum Overlords.

 

[SkullTraill]

I, for one, support our Wizard Forum Overlords.

I’m more of a cleaning lady but thanks!

 

[MorganBlack]

Seems very lenient to me. Poke them with the soft pillows!!

Flipping it around helps see SkullTraill is not asking much.

--------------
To have access to the library, from low to high bar:

1. Make least 1 post in the occult sections in the last week.
if not:
2. Be registered on WF for at least one week.
if not:
3. Make 10 posts in the occult sections.
if not:
4. Have you ever posted a book share?
if not
5. Become a Benefactor.
----------------
If I am reading this right, I guess someone could join and spam 1 to 10 posts, but it's easier just to wait a week.

 

[EmilSinclair]

I think it's good to avoid copyright and also increase the quality of the library them being preserved for experienced magicians

 

[SkullTraill]

Seems very lenient to me. Poke them with the soft pillows!!

Flipping it around helps see SkullTraill is not asking much.

--------------
To have access to the library, from low to high bar:

1. Make least 1 post in the occult sections in the last week.
if not:
2. Be registered on WF for at least one week.
if not:
3. Make 10 posts in the occult sections.
if not:
4. Have you ever posted a book share?
if not
5. Become a Benefactor.
----------------
If I am reading this right, I guess someone could join and spam 1 to 10 posts, but it's easier just to wait a week.

You’d have to be registered for over a week AND have made one post in the last week, those two are one requirement together.

So if you joined today, you could make 10 posts today and view the library. Or you could make one post and wait for a week.

A member who registered last year would have to make one post to get access to the library for a week. After they’ve made 10 posts they will have permanent access.

 

[Lucien6493]

Your intent for Wizard Forums is clear, and your vision carries it. The egregore keeps it real. I'm totally behind everything you have just proposed, and might suggest that you go so far as to hide the contents of the library from those who are not members, if that is at all possible, as well as restricting access under the new rules. I did know about the library before joining, by the way, and had myself a look around, so this I would change because the temptation to feed is so real. But you know, I stayed for the inspiration and for the fact that this space definitely self-selects. It lets you have fellowship and community but you never really know but that you might be talking to someone whose books you have read. That and your membership meritocracy has a subliminal effect.

 

[SkullTraill]

Your intent for Wizard Forums is clear, and your vision carries it. The egregore keeps it real. I'm totally behind everything you have just proposed, and might suggest that you go so far as to hide the contents of the library from those who are not members, if that is at all possible, as well as restricting access under the new rules. I did know about the library before joining, by the way, and had myself a look around, so this I would change because the temptation to feed is so real. But you know, I stayed for the inspiration and for the fact that this space definitely self-selects. It lets you have fellowship and community but you never really know but that you might be talking to someone whose books you have read. That and your membership meritocracy has a subliminal effect.

Interesting ideas, and thank you for your feedback!

 

[ElectricEgregore]

Even if I benefited already from the library as a new member I think more rules are totally justified,
for the start that is a good idea - and quiet generously so - I'm not well versed in all the mechanics behind such a forum,
but for the protection of this space it would maybe even make sense to make it even stricter/ more private and develop
some ideas on how to find the sweet spot on the way.

One can find this forum by just looking for 'book x pdf' on google - and that can cause trouble
and even upset some great minds that give all their time and heart to create great works for all of us.

That being said, working out a way to find the truly rare works is still in the mists,
one can simply not incentivize ppl to scan expensive rare books etc, as this would create some weird piracy cult?

We all love the feature, and it helps a lot in many cases - and still - what we put into something is part of what we get out.
How many books hoarded, how little worked with - eliminating choice is one if not the best way to focus.
Same logic with training anything else - you pay the gym - you force yourself to go for it.

You touch the premium paper - you little hairs stand up