Baptism in the Catholic Church = Legitimate Esoteric Initiation?

[Thee Nightfool]

Curious as to how people think about this subject. I was pondering today how being baptized in the Church of Rome as a newborn was, technically, my very first esoteric initiation. I'm wonderered if it's given me certain blessings in life while, at the same time, making other initations or practices of mine much harder (as a sort of mystical "deterrant" towards what it sees as maelfic beings).

Any thoughts on this? How many of you are baptized in a sacramental church? (Catholic, Orthodox).

 

[tranmut3]

I head that baptism rather functions as an method to put the mark of the devil on you, and, in fact, block any magical / psychic abilities.
it depends on your perspective. there's a great deal of discussion that the Catholic Church rather operates in a devious magical way, functioning to maintain its enslavement over its pitiless followers.

 

[Amadeus]

I got baptized into Russian Orthodoxy, on my request as an adult. I decided to do it after years of spiritual practices, I felt like it was the right thing to do. I have a lot of Orthodox ancestors as well.
In my case it gave me exactly what I was looking for. The ritual worked as some kind of format-c. Boosted increased connection to working with psalms, saints, monastic practices.
It also gave a better connection to other practices, multiplied effects.
Depending on what you're doing it can bring excellent effects.
It puts you into a certain connection to the system. There was an immediate renewal effect.
You get a permanent connection and a boost.

 

[MorganBlack]

I say try it and find out. Many Catholic magicians, or magicians who converted, say the spirits notice and are more respectful if you are baptized.

Not saying convert, I was not originally a "believer" and only did so becasue of some amazing and extreme Catholic theophanic manifestations , but the daimons sure seem to snap to. (I think it's becasue of the manifestation of the Demiurge we have locked in the Vatican basement. Heh!) That said, I'm still a Pantheist and say there are many ways to get to the same place... PGM Headless Rite, etc.

But really, has nobody else noticed that pretty much all of traditional Western magic is essentially Folk Catholic and Eastern Orthodox (Folk Orthodoxy)? Are people not aware that most New World Sorcery is Folk Catholic across the majority of the entire Western hemisphere? Every Haitian Vodouisant and Mexican brujo is Catholic, or grew up Catholic.

We wouldn't even know about the pagan philosophers if it were not for the Catholic love of the Greek pagans. Other historical Catholic magicians include: Marsilio Ficino, Cornelius Agrippa, and his teacher Abbot Trithemius (who was a Benedictine Abbot). There was also Giordano Bruno, Paracelsus, Johannes Reuchlin, Athanasius Kircher, Tommaso Campanella, and others such as Benedetto Rinio , who was a 15th-century Venetian physician and scholar who compiled massive herbal grimoires.

 

[Beyond Everything]

Curious as to how people think about this subject. I was pondering today how being baptized in the Church of Rome as a newborn was, technically, my very first esoteric initiation. I'm wonderered if it's given me certain blessings in life while, at the same time, making other initations or practices of mine much harder (as a sort of mystical "deterrant" towards what it sees as maelfic beings).

Any thoughts on this? How many of you are baptized in a sacramental church? (Catholic, Orthodox).

No, not the least bit legit

The raison dêtre of esotericism is transmutation into an immortal higher subtle body.

Catholicism teaches immortality-by-proxy, that having a childish faith in jesus leads to immortality. This is so false it's not even laughable. Its like telling someone they can become a maestro at the cello by putting flowers on their record player.

 

[MorganBlack]

he raison dêtre of esotericism is transmutation into an immortal higher subtle body.

Not historically . The purpose of esoteric practices - from Merkabah mysticism, Hermetic ascent, to Catholic Theosis - is to have the post-mortem experience while still alive, so you will have a better afterlife and not 'sink' to the worst parts of the afterlife, or be reborn unnecessarily as the Orphics say.

Too much to go into in depth, but I thought I should clear up some misconceptions about the Catholic method of Theosis (of divinization). Again, not converting. In my view there are a number of good paths here.

In Catholicism the aim of Theosis maps very cleanly to the same purpose of Greco-Egyptian Hermeticism called becoming a 'Power' in the afterlife. The language and myths are different but it means the same thing on a practical level. Instead of "Heaven" they called it the "Ogdoad" (if i recall) - the realm beyond the seven planetary sphere to the Fixed Stars where the cosmic machinery of Fate no longer has power over you.

The terminology shifts again a little more in Catholicism. So instead becoming in a Hermetic "Power," in the Catholic mystical framework, you become a "saint" (and the function of Catholicism is to make saints). So when you die you join God's Divine Council where you join other dead humans (and other gods, btw) to partake along with God in creating reality.

 

[Beyond Everything]

Not historically .

Only true if your 'history' stops in the middle east and ignores India, China, Tibet, where they were explicit about the need for a higher body to be developed.

BUT who cares about history. Personal revelation and practice is all that really matters.

The language and myths are different but it means the same thing on a practical level. Instead of "Heaven" they called it the "Ogdoad" (if i recall) - the realm beyond the seven planetary sphere to the Fixed Stars where the cosmic machinery of Fate no longer has power over you.

This is just false equivalence. In catholicism you demonstrate faith and be a so-called 'good' person and grace gets you to heaven. That's it. There is no strenuous efforts at catapulting to other dimensions required.

The terminology shifts again a little more in Catholicism. So instead becoming in a Hermetic "Power," in the Catholic mystical framework, you become a "saint" (and the function of Catholicism is to make saints). So when you die you join God's Divine Council where you join other dead humans (and other gods, btw) to partake along with God in creating reality.

Saints are just egregores. That's why Saint Expedite 'exists' and is worked with. Let's be real here. Having a firm belief and dying for it means nothing. It isn't equivalent to doing decades of esoteric work. This is just the false promises of religion.

Anyway on topic, we have had billions of people baptized, are we really going to say these people demonstrated hallmarks of esoteric advancement? lol Weak sauce, at best.

 

[Lucien6493]

I say try it and find out. Many Catholic magicians, or magicians who converted, say the spirits notice and are more respectful if you are baptized.

Not saying convert, I was not originally a "believer" and only did so becasue of some amazing and extreme Catholic theophanic manifestations , but the daimons sure seem to snap to. (I think it's becasue of the manifestation of the Demiurge we have locked in the Vatican basement. Heh!) That said, I'm still a Pantheist and say there are many ways to get to the same place... PGM Headless Rite, etc.

But really, has nobody else noticed that pretty much all of traditional Western magic is essentially Folk Catholic and Eastern Orthodox (Folk Orthodoxy)? Are people not aware that most New World Sorcery is Folk Catholic across the majority of the entire Western hemisphere? Every Haitian Vodouisant and Mexican brujo is Catholic, or grew up Catholic.

We wouldn't even know about the pagan philosophers if it were not for the Catholic love of the Greek pagans. Other historical Catholic magicians include: Marsilio Ficino, Cornelius Agrippa, and his teacher Abbot Trithemius (who was a Benedictine Abbot). There was also Giordano Bruno, Paracelsus, Johannes Reuchlin, Athanasius Kircher, Tommaso Campanella, and others such as Benedetto Rinio , who was a 15th-century Venetian physician and scholar who compiled massive herbal grimoires.

Not historically . The purpose of esoteric practices - from Merkabah mysticism, Hermetic ascent, to Catholic Theosis - is to have the post-mortem experience while still alive, so you will have a better afterlife and not 'sink' to the worst parts of the afterlife, or be reborn unnecessarily as the Orphics say.

Too much to go into in depth, but I thought I should clear up some misconceptions about the Catholic method of Theosis (of divinization). Again, not converting. In my view there are a number of good paths here.

In Catholicism the aim of Theosis maps very cleanly to the same purpose of Greco-Egyptian Hermeticism called becoming a 'Power' in the afterlife. The language and myths are different but it means the same thing on a practical level. Instead of "Heaven" they called it the "Ogdoad" (if i recall) - the realm beyond the seven planetary sphere to the Fixed Stars where the cosmic machinery of Fate no longer has power over you.

The terminology shifts again a little more in Catholicism. So instead becoming in a Hermetic "Power," in the Catholic mystical framework, you become a "saint" (and the function of Catholicism is to make saints). So when you die you join God's Divine Council where you join other dead humans (and other gods, btw) to partake along with God in creating reality.

Catholicism having an impact on the Western Magical Tradition? Nah, can't say I noticed any such thing! I will say though that infant baptism immerses you in a living Tradition at a time when you have no cognitive or perceptual filters against being taken up by the full spiritual force of it. All I did, on my part, was scream like an outraged banshee and leave a deposit in the fount. It was, hands down, the most powerful magickal experience of my life. I never got over it. I had nothing to do with it either. I fought against it with all that I had, and now just look where it got me. To my mind though, that is what makes it such a gift. You don't have to call it sacramental ontology. You don't have to call it anything at all. You learn it from stories and from the way things were done, from habitus. And in a way, it makes of you a solar system unto yourself, with everything that shapes and informs your life in orbit around something that looks like nothing but contains everything. It’s like a mustard seed. There is no guarantee that it will grow. It might grow you into a devil, and it won’t make you a magician either, or protect you from spirits, but it will ground you into something fundamentally real in our pro-forma wasteland, and every sub-lunar spirit will recognize it instantly.

 

[MorganBlack]

Only true if your 'history' stops in the middle east and ignores India, China, Tibet,

Meh. People have been up-talking the Mystical Wonders of the Orient and with all their Flying Himalayan Wonder mages since Blavatsky - but let's be real, how many dead Dalai Lamas are we up to by now? Fourteen or so. They die just like everybody else.

And frankly, speaking here as a Zen practitioner, the Buddhist view of the afterlife is horrific and bleak. You are more likely to be reincarnated in a animal world, ghost world, or hell world than the human world again.

Now, in my view, according to my personal gnosis, we're already immortal beings. Always have been. Occultism is Western and in the Western practices the one thing you can do is choose a better afterlife. According to many cultures, the post-mortem experience is traumatic, and these practices are to provide you intercessory beings to help you with the transition.

So it does not matter if these intercessory allies are actual beings, actual angels and saints, or if it's all a Bardo plane laser-light show for our benefit as the newly deceased. Same deal. They are there to help you not sink into the bad part of Hades, called Tartarus or Hell, because you are still attached to your Passions - which also venn cleanly to the Buddhist Kleshas.

 

[Thee Nightfool]

But really, has nobody else noticed that pretty much all of traditional Western magic is essentially Folk Catholic and Eastern Orthodox (Folk Orthodoxy)? Are people not aware that most New World Sorcery is Folk Catholic across the majority of the entire Western hemisphere? Every Haitian Vodouisant and Mexican brujo is Catholic, or grew up Catholic.

Yep, right on the money here. Realizing this was a big "damn" moment for me. I was just wondering if there were some on here that felt like the baptism was the "head-start" one needed to become a karcist. Of course, this means that each and every Catholic and etc. is predisposed to this shit, which is obviously dead-ass wrong.