Biases Present in Fantasy Stories

[Ohana]

I'm going to elaborate on Tolkien and Racism.

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I'm looking more into Lord of the Rings lore because I do just know the generalities about from being on fringe nerdish culture for a large part of my life.

I do still stand by the statement that Orcs in Lord of the Rings imply a bit of Raciam in part of the author.

The reason is Lord of the Rings is complicated and Tolkien complicated too. The Orcs in the Lord of the Rings Tolkien has to be based in appearance what Tolkien described here as "Least lovely Mongols" and I feel like that is already a loaded description for a fantastical species.

Then the origins for Orcs are that they are elves that are corrupted by Sauron apparently. If that is the case I Tolkien should have called the Orcs another Elf tribe than make a new fantastical species built on that. But he didn't and Orcs are now present in media and I don't think they'll go away but I don't think there origin should be ignored either.

Also there may not be many Orc character in Lord of the Rings and if there are I don't think we follow their perspective too often. I tried reading the Hobbit first then going to the Lord of the Rings but the input of Orcs kind of drew me out of it a bit.

In most fantasy settings they kind of do. And I think its the implication of a lack of agency on the Orcs behalf. That they are born into evil. That this is all they are made to do. That orcs themselves have no free will and at the whims of the evil Sauron.

The lack of agency given to this fantasy species is a bit concerning and I feel like may reveal some biases present within Tolkiens works. Tolkien might not outright villianize Orcs maybe in some texts he has the read maybe want to sympathize to them

But the fact Orcs are robbed of their agency. That they are doomed forever to a life of evil. It does face a cold and discerning look at reality and the fact that some groups of people in society are said to be doomed to a life a crime.

Its a discerning and not fun parallel to reality that always kind of drew me away from fantasy settings or reading Lord of the Rings. This is because my aunt and uncle were and are black. They were adopted into my family so I just became a lot more aware of race and Orcs always rubbed me the wrong way.

But I don't think Tolkien is even trying to be racist. I think he's a product of his time. Lord of the Rings I think is really progressive for its time and its work that has made its mark on the fantasy genre. Its a classic for a reason. Its really well made and blends a lot of European folklore together to create a rich fantasy world.

I don't think ignoring the loaded history of this is the right move though. I think acknowledging it is. I don't think Tolkiens works should be just thrown away because of this loaded history but rather examined. Because Tolkien works do still I think have value. They have an inspiring anti-war message and Tolkien himself despite being a product of his time was progressive. He tried to not be racially motivated and he did a pretty good job of that. But he still failed regarding other areas of his work just due to being a product of his time.

Hes human. Affected by the biases of his time and not the only fantasy author that was. Every author technically is. So thats my take on that. So I guess floor is open to other people that want to talk about the biases they think or have found are present within certain fantasy stories.

 

[Morell]

I'm going to elaborate on Tolkien and Racism.

Please, Log in or Register to view URLs content!

I'm looking more into Lord of the Rings lore because I do just know the generalities about from being on fringe nerdish culture for a large part of my life.

I do still stand by the statement that Orcs in Lord of the Rings imply a bit of Raciam in part of the author.

The reason is Lord of the Rings is complicated and Tolkien complicated too. The Orcs in the Lord of the Rings Tolkien has to be based in appearance what Tolkien described here as "Least lovely Mongols" and I feel like that is already a loaded description for a fantastical species.

Then the origins for Orcs are that they are elves that are corrupted by Sauron apparently. If that is the case I Tolkien should have called the Orcs another Elf tribe than make a new fantastical species built on that. But he didn't and Orcs are now present in media and I don't think they'll go away but I don't think there origin should be ignored either.

Also there may not be many Orc character in Lord of the Rings and if there are I don't think we follow their perspective too often. I tried reading the Hobbit first then going to the Lord of the Rings but the input of Orcs kind of drew me out of it a bit.

In most fantasy settings they kind of do. And I think its the implication of a lack of agency on the Orcs behalf. That they are born into evil. That this is all they are made to do. That orcs themselves have no free will and at the whims of the evil Sauron.

The lack of agency given to this fantasy species is a bit concerning and I feel like may reveal some biases present within Tolkiens works. Tolkien might not outright villianize Orcs maybe in some texts he has the read maybe want to sympathize to them

But the fact Orcs are robbed of their agency. That they are doomed forever to a life of evil. It does face a cold and discerning look at reality and the fact that some groups of people in society are said to be doomed to a life a crime.

Its a discerning and not fun parallel to reality that always kind of drew me away from fantasy settings or reading Lord of the Rings. This is because my aunt and uncle were and are black. They were adopted into my family so I just became a lot more aware of race and Orcs always rubbed me the wrong way.

But I don't think Tolkien is even trying to be racist. I think he's a product of his time. Lord of the Rings I think is really progressive for its time and its work that has made its mark on the fantasy genre. Its a classic for a reason. Its really well made and blends a lot of European folklore together to create a rich fantasy world.

I don't think ignoring the loaded history of this is the right move though. I think acknowledging it is. I don't think Tolkiens works should be just thrown away because of this loaded history but rather examined. Because Tolkien works do still I think have value. They have an inspiring anti-war message and Tolkien himself despite being a product of his time was progressive. He tried to not be racially motivated and he did a pretty good job of that. But he still failed regarding other areas of his work just due to being a product of his time.

Hes human. Affected by the biases of his time and not the only fantasy author that was. Every author technically is. So thats my take on that. So I guess floor is open to other people that want to talk about the biases they think or have found are present within certain fantasy stories.

Since this discussion got to Tolkien I want to talk about him

He had a lot of racism and I think it hurt his works. The orcs are just "inherently" evil? Despite having a society? What do they do thats evil? Exist?

So theres just a species for the protagonists to fight just because? Wow. I haven't fully read the books but it would add an air of intrigue if the orcs had a reason for being against the antagonists.

It would be so much more interesting to me. You can still have all the battles but now its just more complicated.

And I briefly researched it its apperenelt anti-war. Now theres also narrative weight when enemies in battle die adding to the message. The racism just hinders it. But the story is a classic for a reason partly for its parallels the Christiananity.

There's a species called daemons and apparently they are just bad and thats it. Thats sounds like the Orcs. So it kind of does parallel that in a way.

Tolkien is a person influenced by his day and age. And racism was a part of it like it still is now. Its definitely interesting to grapple with especially since he's probably not the only one. Many people adopted it into fantasy role play and still have the concept of a speicies just being inherently good or bad. Its yeah. Its definitely a legacy.

I agree that this is complicated topic as well as Tolkien being part of his own age. Same could be told of Lovecraft, who was pouting difference between white people who were logical and materialistic, and other races who were more "primitive", violent, but also mysterious and magical, which was also making them attractive for some of whities, who sought forbitten knowledge.

In Tolkien's world all evil starts with Melkor being heartbroken when Varda refused him and took his borther instead. He never found new love among the ainur and turned more and more aggressive and jealous. Then the unhealed pain turned into evil that grew in the world. But there is a complication with Tolkien. If you actually read LOTR, you find that Legolas and Gimli are forming friendship despite the racism between their races. The irony is that you cannot make a tale of fighting against racism... without racism being present.

Elves were like elite race while orcs their deformed offshot created/mutated by Melkor/Morgoth. Then there are dwarves, who were created by Aule and they cannot get along with elves, the two were leading racist wars during history. And then there are humans, beloved of the highest god who leaves all other races to rot in the world, including the gods ainur and only takes humans to dwell with him. Yet another racism. You can also find Númenoreans being kings of men, who then bred with "lesser" people of Middlearth, which shortened their lifespawn... and other racist remarks.

Orcs are mainly based on bandits, mercenaries and armies, I think. Tolkien was taking inspiration from humans. Elves are based on Japan people, Dwarves on Gypsies, Hobbits are based on English people...

But tot he point, if you put together different races/species like that, you inevitably form racism. Each fantasy race to be survivable needs to keep itself in some sort of isolation to preserve itself as it is. And so the outsiders cannot be much welcome. This is interesting to think about, actually. Yet sadly it is somehow his invention, probably. In middleages there were elves and dwarves and Jotun too, but there were no strict lines of definition as Tolkien unfortunately helped to develop. When human died, they could become ghul, ancestor, or even elf (álf). Jotuns were similar to trolls and trolls were people who were doing witchcraft. Some very human, some less and less...

But in modern world where we need everything defined this fantasy races, strictly defined, are almost unfortunate consequence of our own society and thinking...