Chaos Magick and Robert Anton Wilson Ruined Abramelin

[bartyblack]

The subject line is basically the thesis of my post. Every day for the past 15 years I see some nonsense from people where they are convinced that Abramelin or any ceremony to attain Knowledge and Conversation of the Holy Guardian Angel is the most intense, difficult, insane shite ever when it is literally one of the simplest ritual procedures to accomplish with hardly any elbow grease. The damn book itself even says that its rules are more guidelines than Gospel truth. So long as the operant doesn't get laid out in bed with illness after taking the vow, assume it's working. Really not that hard.

My proposition that this is the fault of the Chaos Magick and RAW movement is because of their idea that everything in magickal effects has exclusively to do with the psychological impact upon the operator. What logically flows from this is that the more extreme a practice one goes through (Death Posture, anyone?), the more powerful the result will be. So you take this tendency, combine it with Crowley's adoration and exaltation of the KC/HGA experience, and you end up with "I can't meet my angel guardian because I can't quit work for five years and live in a trailer in the desert." The grimoire itself doesn't even call for that in the first place. Whoever takes on the work of the procedure, even by an "orthodox" method, can live a basically normal life with a little prayer and Catholic style fasting right up until the day of the operation. Up until very recently the vast majority of Christians fasted on one proper meal a day with maybe a small snack at another point while working quite physical jobs.

Personally, I think the Abramelin should be rewritten for the people of today who have a significantly shortened attention span, and a far lower tolerance for difficulty. Working from Agrippa's discussions of the purpose of purification being to get us into a "phrensy" or an ecstatic state, not much has to be done now. Everything moves so much faster than it did back in the 14th century that even a week or two could maybe be enough, especially for the younger folks who are typically undisciplined. Just turning off Instagram and TikTok for a few days already has a serious psychological effect that gears one up for big celestial workings.

 

[Robert Ramsay]

This is a very interesting point. I think that long, complicated instructions (including items made from rare materials where you have to learn a whole new craft to make the damn thing yourself) are purely to make one 'believe more'. With the correct attitude to start with (although this is the hard part) simple rituals are just as effective.

This is coming from someone who does believe that the state of mind of the operator is indeed what makes magic possible.

I also believe that the root of the problem is not a particular magical system (after all, grimoires from the 17th century had ridiculous shopping lists and time requirements, long before Chaos Magick turned up) but from the basic root that no-one knows why magic works. Sure, Crowley says "By doing certain things certain results will follow", but this is just another technique for increasing the strength of your belief. If it were known why, then rituals could easily be streamlined, although the amount of work you put into it is, again, strengthening your belief.

As an example, the placebo effect is magic - powered by belief, no-one knows how it works, actual physical effects - but it can be implemented with a simple sugar pill, and does not require the ridiculous paraphenalia of homeopathy.

 

[jkeller293]

The subject line is basically the thesis of my post. Every day for the past 15 years I see some nonsense from people where they are convinced that Abramelin or any ceremony to attain Knowledge and Conversation of the Holy Guardian Angel is the most intense, difficult, insane shite ever when it is literally one of the simplest ritual procedures to accomplish with hardly any elbow grease. The damn book itself even says that its rules are more guidelines than Gospel truth. So long as the operant doesn't get laid out in bed with illness after taking the vow, assume it's working. Really not that hard.

My proposition that this is the fault of the Chaos Magick and RAW movement is because of their idea that everything in magickal effects has exclusively to do with the psychological impact upon the operator. What logically flows from this is that the more extreme a practice one goes through (Death Posture, anyone?), the more powerful the result will be. So you take this tendency, combine it with Crowley's adoration and exaltation of the KC/HGA experience, and you end up with "I can't meet my angel guardian because I can't quit work for five years and live in a trailer in the desert." The grimoire itself doesn't even call for that in the first place. Whoever takes on the work of the procedure, even by an "orthodox" method, can live a basically normal life with a little prayer and Catholic style fasting right up until the day of the operation. Up until very recently the vast majority of Christians fasted on one proper meal a day with maybe a small snack at another point while working quite physical jobs.

Personally, I think the Abramelin should be rewritten for the people of today who have a significantly shortened attention span, and a far lower tolerance for difficulty. Working from Agrippa's discussions of the purpose of purification being to get us into a "phrensy" or an ecstatic state, not much has to be done now. Everything moves so much faster than it did back in the 14th century that even a week or two could maybe be enough, especially for the younger folks who are typically undisciplined. Just turning off Instagram and TikTok for a few days already has a serious psychological effect that gears one up for big celestial workings.

About the abramelin ritual being rewritten for modern times — i strongly agree; however, i strongly disagree for it to be rewritten for low attention spans. I believe that those with a low attention span would render less potent results in ritual in comparison to those with high attention spans. With a high attention span comes deeper understanding, and the process of meeting with the HGA is for gaining wisdom. If you do not have a attention span to listen, i find the whole process useless.

It comes down to the choice of the person to develop discipline to cultivate a attention span and i find that far more important than the ritual itself. So let me meet you in the middle here. Maybe this should be the main aspect focused on if this ritual were to be rewritten for modern times — a strong focus on preparation, then comes simpifying and making the ritual more relatable for our time — including more accessable items for ritual.

So i would suggest a very simple not excessively detailed illustration how to cultivate discipline steered towards developing a attention span, after this go on about the modified ritual full of instruction on what you should do in the most direct fashion.

 

[HoldAll]

Personally, I think the Abramelin should be rewritten for the people of today.

I agree. Very simple put, I think the key to attaining Knowledge and Conversation is self-transformation. Virtually every religion and paradigm includes methods how to achieve this goal but of which the author of the Abramelin was completely unaware in his time, so he proposed the only ones he knew, such as praying, fasting, confession, etc. Times have changed, however and now there's a plethora of tools such as Eastern-style meditation at our disposal we can use to aid us in this endeavour. Here are some proposals regarding the way of making contact with your HGA:

* The whole process should be open-ended, a sort of dharma/do instead of being limited to a set period of time - and if it takes years, so be it. Furthermore, one should be prepared to employ new methods as one progresses because all too often it takes some personal development to appreciate new ways or rediscover old ones one has previously overlooked or ignored.

* Similarly, we should rid of the idea that the HGA will one day suddenly appear as a glorious apparition in a climactic scene as the fruit of our intense labour; rather, we should expect contact to be gradual, in very subtle ways that may be different for everyone.

I've long ceased to be a starry-eyed GoM fanboy but I think Damon Brand makes some good points in his "Magical Destiny". Here is a quote from his HGA Protocol One:

Whether you are sitting or standing, open your arms so that your palms are facing upward. This is similar to the gesture you would make to an old friend, meaning they should come in for a hug. This gesture is an act of welcoming and despite its simplicity, is an extremely powerful way to invite the Angel. Of course, just opening your arms with your palms facing up does nothing in itself, but you are doing this with the intention of welcoming your Angel. That makes all the difference.

Peter J. Carroll proposes a similar procedure in Liber Null & Psychonaut:

Directly on awakening, preferably at dawn, the initiate goes to the place of invocation. Figuring as one goes that being born anew each day brings with it the chance of greater rebirth, first one banishes the temple of the mind by ritual or by some magical trance. Then one unveils some token or symbol or sigil which represents the holy guardian angel. This symbol will likely have to change during the great work as the inspiration begins to move. Next one invokes an image of the angel into the mind’s eye. It may be considered as a luminous duplicate of one’s own form standing in front of or behind oneself, or simply as a ball of brilliant light above one’s head. Then one formulates aspirations in any chosen manner, by humble prayer or exalting proclamation as need be.

The best form of this invocation is spoken spontaneously from the heart and, if halting at first, will prove itself in time. The aim is to establish a set of ideas and images which correspond to the nature of one’s genius and at the same time receive inspiration from that source.

For me, these seemingly simple rituals are a substitute for "enflaming oneself with prayer", a very intimate way of becoming receptive to the presence of one's HGA. I said "seemingly simple" because it may not so easy for some to open up completely to an entity supposedly vastly superior to you, for example (I think it was Marcus Katz in his "After the Angel" who angrily called himself a 'worthless worm' in his Abramelin diary), or you may be emotionally repressed, another obstacle to overcome. In a way, Protocol One is therefore likely akin to a confession, and I would recommend freely speaking one's thoughts, expressing one's fears, doubts, cautious affection or whatever.

Or Protocol Three:

This Protocol involves performing physical actions with the intention that they will help you make contact with your Angel. Some of the ways you can do this are quite obvious, but others will require more explanation.

Throughout the history of magick, gestures have been used as a form of ritual. Even the first Protocol in this book uses the gesture of the open arms with your palm facing upward. The idea is that by performing a repeated motion, that has meaning and intention, it becomes far more than a simple act of movement. It becomes magick as soon as you want it to be magick.

Damon Brand suggests walking, and although he says that it could be any physical task, I think it's best to choose a prolonged activity, something you do every day for an extended period of time (again, going for a walk may be easiest). The point is to remember your guardian angel on a daily basis, not just thinking of it but linking this awareness to certain bodily sensations which makes the remembering process more robust.

Tl; dr: I think we should stop considering the Abramelin the One and True Royal Road to the HGA and be flexible enough to adopt any modern methods we find useful for attaining Knowledge and Conversation.

 

[jkeller293]

About the abramelin ritual being rewritten for modern times — i strongly agree; however, i strongly disagree for it to be rewritten for low attention spans. I believe that those with a low attention span would render less potent results in ritual in comparison to those with high attention spans. With a high attention span comes deeper understanding, and the process of meeting with the HGA is for gaining wisdom. If you do not have a attention span to listen, i find the whole process useless.

It comes down to the choice of the person to develop discipline to cultivate a attention span and i find that far more important than the ritual itself. So let me meet you in the middle here. Maybe this should be the main aspect focused on if this ritual were to be rewritten for modern times — a strong focus on preparation, then comes simpifying and making the ritual more relatable for our time — including more accessable items for ritual.

So i would suggest a very simple not excessively detailed illustration how to cultivate discipline steered towards developing a attention span, after this go on about the modified ritual full of instruction on what you should do in the most direct fashion.

However i still see this like throwing bait for a fish that is not hungry. May just be a waste of time for those type of people you are adressing.

Post automatically merged: Friday at 10:29 AM

Furthermore, one should be prepared to employ new methods as one progresses

And also do not be afraid to craft your own methods from the knowledge you aquire. A perfect role model of that is @Robert Ramsay as that is exactly what he does from what i seen. Its one thing to try new methods, but i find much more value in the acting out of your own creativity in the persuit of wisdom.

 

[Robert Ramsay]

However i still see this like throwing bait for a fish that is not hungry. May just be a waste of time for those type of people you are adressing.

Post automatically merged: Friday at 10:29 AM

And also do not be afraid to craft your own methods from the knowledge you aquire. A perfect role model of that is @Robert Ramsay as that is exactly what he does from what i seen. Its one thing to try new methods, but i find much more value in the acting out of your own creativity in the persuit of wisdom.

Thank you for those kind words! Admittedly, I kind of came at it ass-backwards, looking to connect the worlds of magic and physics

Alan Moore has stated that he thinks art and magic are the same thing; I have come to a similar conclusion - creativity and magic both utilise the same mechanisms in the brain. No-one knows why magic works, and no-one knows why creativity works either

As one of Holland-Dozier-Holland said: "How do you write a hit record? I have no idea, and I've written thirty-two"

 

[jkeller293]

Thank you for those kind words! Admittedly, I kind of came at it ass-backwards, looking to connect the worlds of magic and physics

Alan Moore has stated that he thinks art and magic are the same thing; I have come to a similar conclusion - creativity and magic both utilise the same mechanisms in the brain. No-one knows why magic works, and no-one knows why creativity works either

As one of Holland-Dozier-Holland said: "How do you write a hit record? I have no idea, and I've written thirty-two"

Well you hit a record at the end there. 32 is my age lol.

 

[bartyblack]

About the abramelin ritual being rewritten for modern times — i strongly agree; however, i strongly disagree for it to be rewritten for low attention spans. I believe that those with a low attention span would render less potent results in ritual in comparison to those with high attention spans. With a high attention span comes deeper understanding, and the process of meeting with the HGA is for gaining wisdom. If you do not have a attention span to listen, i find the whole process useless.

It comes down to the choice of the person to develop discipline to cultivate a attention span and i find that far more important than the ritual itself. So let me meet you in the middle here. Maybe this should be the main aspect focused on if this ritual were to be rewritten for modern times — a strong focus on preparation, then comes simpifying and making the ritual more relatable for our time — including more accessable items for ritual.

So i would suggest a very simple not excessively detailed illustration how to cultivate discipline steered towards developing a attention span, after this go on about the modified ritual full of instruction on what you should do in the most direct fashion.

I don't mean specifically for low-attention span people. In a general sense our perception of time and how things move is significantly faster than any time of history, so long, drawn out ritual procedures that go on for months aren't completely necessary. The fact that we can even communicate across God knows how many miles of physical distance that could potentially take weeks to years to traverse in earlier times within seconds represents a radical change in how we perceive the flow of time. People in early modern society - and even modern peasants in countries such as France - approached life in such a steady way that they would hardly recognize people as members of their community if they hadn't lived with them since childhood. Forget about talking to people from foreign locales on the regular.

Post automatically merged: Friday at 4:53 PM

Just to be clear, I think Chaos Magick and RAW's influence are responsible for the fanaticism around Abramelin to the point of making the ritual significantly harder than it needs to be. My point about distilling the principles of the original procedure and re-presenting them in a way more feasible for modern people is slightly tangential to the main intention of this post.

 

[beardedeldridge]

I don’t think it needs to be rewritten, as much as just understood for what it is.

Like you guys pointed out, it’s just an initiation or a spiritual/magical training program. A starting point (or maybe a shift in direction). And like you said, it isn’t all that difficult. Now I don’t think someone can just get off SM and from scratch achieve an effective k&c with their HGA who then teaches them a unique-to-them magical practice in a week either. But if you spend a week really focused on only that, something will probably happen but that depends on your starting point too.

Mine lasted much closer to the 6 month point than the 18 month mark (it was actually <6 months), but it wasn’t my starting point either and there were several points I could have stopped and honestly claimed success along the way but the end results, when I considered it complete, were pretty shattering to me. In some ways the way I did it was tougher than the standard but in some ways it was easier as well (marriage, kids, career necessitated some changes).

-Eld

 

[bartyblack]

I don’t think it needs to be rewritten, as much as just understood for what it is.

Like you guys pointed out, it’s just an initiation or a spiritual/magical training program. A starting point (or maybe a shift in direction). And like you said, it isn’t all that difficult. Now I don’t think someone can just get off SM and from scratch achieve an effective k&c with their HGA who then teaches them a unique-to-them magical practice in a week either. But if you spend a week really focused on only that, something will probably happen but that depends on your starting point too.

Mine lasted much closer to the 6 month point than the 18 month mark (it was actually <6 months), but it wasn’t my starting point either and there were several points I could have stopped and honestly claimed success along the way but the end results, when I considered it complete, were pretty shattering to me. In some ways the way I did it was tougher than the standard but in some ways it was easier as well (marriage, kids, career necessitated some changes).

-Eld

I'm on the side of taking about a month. Though to be fair, the technique I was given by a former patron spirit of mine was delivered after a month of preparation in penance, and after some years of serious spiritual practice - magick specific as well as religious. Though there was a whole year afterwards where I had to keep up ascetic practices and commune regularly with my HGA as part of the adjustment process.

 

[Lurker]

I think your thesis is completely wrong and you're scapegoating.

COUNTERPOINT:

Chaotes have nothing to do with the Abramelin. Chaos magic is based on simplifying techniques of practical magic. Casting a sigil, for example, is far simpler than performing an evocation just to bargain with a tricky spirit.

What you have claimed are exaggerations by Chaotes are actually the exaggerations of the ceremonial magicians. The blame belong squarely in the ceremonial magick community. As to why, here are a few points off the top of my head:

• Difficulty 1: Crowly failed at the Abramelin – that says a lot to inexperienced ceremonial magicians. No matter what you think of Crowley personally, he was exceptionally talented at magick. If it fails, then you've wasted your time.
• Difficulty 2: Famous magicians like Aaron Leitch have Abramelin classes. They want people to think the ritual is so hard that they need to pay a famous ceremonial magician to hold their hand. People selling Abramelin courses cultivate that attitude for the sake of finances. It’s one more example of the commodification of the occult.
• Panic mongering: K&C HGA has a reputation in the ceremonial magick community for being disruptive. Many magicians like their lives and don’t want that kind of disruption. So again, from the naïve point of view, they think that level of disruption is inevitable and shy away from it.

A COUPLE MORE POINTS:

• As Damon Brand pointed out, the Abramelin all comes down to a make-or-break operation at the end. If you fail at that (like Crowley) then you’ve (apparently) wasted your time. That idea is discouraging.
• Also, there was the movie A Dark Song – great movie, but their fictionalized version of the Abramelin made it seem like the misunderstanding you described, i.e. you need to go into seclusion for months to perform an impossibly hard ritual, and at your life’s peril.

SUMMARY:

So no, Chaotes and Chaos magic have nothing to do with this. You're giving them way too much credit for influence in the ceremonial magick community. The problems are entirely due to the exaggerated lore and profit motives of ceremonial magicians.

FINALLY:

If you can rewrite it to work in a month, and work with equal efficacy, then carry on, o wayward son, because you will be THE MAN.

 

[bartyblack]

I think your thesis is completely wrong and you're scapegoating.

COUNTERPOINT:

Chaotes have nothing to do with the Abramelin. Chaos magic is based on simplifying techniques of practical magic. Casting a sigil, for example, is far simpler than performing an evocation just to bargain with a tricky spirit.

What you have claimed are exaggerations by Chaotes are actually the exaggerations of the ceremonial magicians. The blame belong squarely in the ceremonial magick community. As to why, here are a few points off the top of my head:

• Difficulty 1: Crowly failed at the Abramelin – that says a lot to inexperienced ceremonial magicians. No matter what you think of Crowley personally, he was exceptionally talented at magick. If it fails, then you've wasted your time.
• Difficulty 2: Famous magicians like Aaron Leitch have Abramelin classes. They want people to think the ritual is so hard that they need to pay a famous ceremonial magician to hold their hand. People selling Abramelin courses cultivate that attitude for the sake of finances. It’s one more example of the commodification of the occult.
• Panic mongering: K&C HGA has a reputation in the ceremonial magick community for being disruptive. Many magicians like their lives and don’t want that kind of disruption. So again, from the naïve point of view, they think that level of disruption is inevitable and shy away from it.

A COUPLE MORE POINTS:

• As Damon Brand pointed out, the Abramelin all comes down to a make-or-break operation at the end. If you fail at that (like Crowley) then you’ve (apparently) wasted your time. That idea is discouraging.
• Also, there was the movie A Dark Song – great movie, but their fictionalized version of the Abramelin made it seem like the misunderstanding you described, i.e. you need to go into seclusion for months to perform an impossibly hard ritual, and at your life’s peril.

SUMMARY:

So no, Chaotes and Chaos magic have nothing to do with this. You're giving them way too much credit for influence in the ceremonial magick community. The problems are entirely due to the exaggerated lore and profit motives of ceremonial magicians.

FINALLY:

If you can rewrite it to work in a month, and work with equal efficacy, then carry on, o wayward son, because you will be THE MAN.

While the CM crowd has engaged in this, the foundational ideas that lead to the misinterpretation of the Abramelin rite and its procedures come from a Peter Carrol-esque "trance induction is the key to magick" conception of things. RAW doesn't help either what with his encouragement of substance use and contention that altered states are crucial for spiritual experience, and he's been a massive influence in the general esoteric community, whether any of us want to acknowledge it or not. Almost all of Leitch's "theories" that Medieval magicians were high on drugs comes from a Wilson-esque view of the world.

 

[AlfrunGrima]

Thank you for those kind words! Admittedly, I kind of came at it ass-backwards, looking to connect the worlds of magic and physics

Alan Moore has stated that he thinks art and magic are the same thing; I have come to a similar conclusion - creativity and magic both utilise the same mechanisms in the brain. No-one knows why magic works, and no-one knows why creativity works either

As one of Holland-Dozier-Holland said: "How do you write a hit record? I have no idea, and I've written thirty-two"

As a composer myself I can add that I feel that my brain is, while composing music, in the same mode as when performing magic: fully awake with everything switched on in the upppermost concentration, while being completely disconnected from my daily life and who I am in my daily life. Even bodily I feel the same sensations. It feels like the exact same flow. It is that flowstate that is highly productive. It is no eureka, it is the brain switched over in high gear. (And learning how to reach that state a gradual process)

 

[Shade]

This is a very interesting point. I think that long, complicated instructions (including items made from rare materials where you have to learn a whole new craft to make the damn thing yourself) are purely to make one 'believe more'. With the correct attitude to start with (although this is the hard part) simple rituals are just as effective.

I agree but also I would add, I think it’s more so not the belief they were going for but rather the ability to enter that rare state of flow that you get when everything is coming together perfectly , it’s creative force in which when writing everything just clicks, or writing a poem and you think to your self “oh damn that’s good” or when after writing you think “wow it’s like I channeled that” It’s combining the upper and lower realm, which belief in your ability plays a role, but also attention + intention (focus of will) being in the “now” where all external thoughts are blocked, no doubts, no fear, no success, no failure, it is what it is and it is occurring in the divine moment.
think of popping a placebo and is cures something that should not be curable with just a sugar pill, it doesn’t take “belief”. Everything led to that moment and that’s all you can do in the “now”. They were in the moment and happened to have the right mindset when taking the pill, the combined their actions and the divine timing of the “now”. I think this is a large reason why results are not duplicated at a sufficient academic standard when it comes to proof.
People want to boil it down to belief when even in chaos magick belief is only a tool. The tool of belief is to tweak the rest of the parts needed, which for everyone is different, everyone has a creative process and anyone can tap into that divine moment. I think of people like Harry Mack who can freestyle off the top hos head at a degree faster than many people think, he is pushing that flow externally but as magicians it’s harnessing the Logos within. It takes focus, practice and dedication. Other times it is purely by chance or “divine timing” in which your higher self and soul and the lower self within the body, your spirit happen to connect.

So yes elaborate rituals are not always needed but it helps set the framework for what’s to come. Self discipline, self mastery raising the spirit that’s trapped in the mortal vessel as you call down your higher self in union. You make a slight spark with small things that are very effective with a slight touch other times the process is an extended state of Wu-Wei. All the elaborate stuff isn’t just the process of getting it for belief but rather extends a higher connection and stronger alignment.

 

[Robert Ramsay]

I agree but also I would add, I think it’s more so not the belief they were going for but rather the ability to enter that rare state of flow that you get when everything is coming together perfectly , it’s creative force in which when writing everything just clicks, or writing a poem and you think to your self “oh damn that’s good” or when after writing you think “wow it’s like I channeled that” It’s combining the upper and lower realm, which belief in your ability plays a role, but also attention + intention (focus of will) being in the “now” where all external thoughts are blocked, no doubts, no fear, no success, no failure, it is what it is and it is occurring in the divine moment.
think of popping a placebo and is cures something that should not be curable with just a sugar pill, it doesn’t take “belief”. Everything led to that moment and that’s all you can do in the “now”. They were in the moment and happened to have the right mindset when taking the pill, the combined their actions and the divine timing of the “now”. I think this is a large reason why results are not duplicated at a sufficient academic standard when it comes to proof.
People want to boil it down to belief when even in chaos magick belief is only a tool. The tool of belief is to tweak the rest of the parts needed, which for everyone is different, everyone has a creative process and anyone can tap into that divine moment. I think of people like Harry Mack who can freestyle off the top hos head at a degree faster than many people think, he is pushing that flow externally but as magicians it’s harnessing the Logos within. It takes focus, practice and dedication. Other times it is purely by chance or “divine timing” in which your higher self and soul and the lower self within the body, your spirit happen to connect.

So yes elaborate rituals are not always needed but it helps set the framework for what’s to come. Self discipline, self mastery raising the spirit that’s trapped in the mortal vessel as you call down your higher self in union. You make a slight spark with small things that are very effective with a slight touch other times the process is an extended state of Wu-Wei. All the elaborate stuff isn’t just the process of getting it for belief but rather extends a higher connection and stronger alignment.

In this case "belief" is one of the things required to get into this state. You need to be convinced of the thing at a level below your conscious mind. I am not talking about any particular belief system - I am talking about the mechanism of belief itself.

It is (IMO) very similar to learning to ride a bike. When you first start learning, it's at the level of your conscious mind and you wobble about a lot

When you have actually learned, you no longer need to think consciously about the process of riding the bike - and in fact, if you do, it will actually make your bike riding worse at that point. It can get to the point where you arrive home and realise you can recall absolutely nothing about the journey.

 

[Shade]

In this case "belief" is one of the things required to get into this state. You need to be convinced of the thing at a level below your conscious mind. I am not talking about any particular belief system - I am talking about the mechanism of belief itself.

It is (IMO) very similar to learning to ride a bike. When you first start learning, it's at the level of your conscious mind and you wobble about a lot

When you have actually learned, you no longer need to think consciously about the process of riding the bike - and in fact, if you do, it will actually make your bike riding worse at that point. It can get to the point where you arrive home and realise you can recall absolutely nothing about the journey.

Right so they wouldn’t be going for belief, belief would be inherent in the subconscious mind already. But… I can see why getting the items and going through the process would reaffirm the belief.

 

[Jsinclair]

Why not simply use the proscribed invocation at the beginning of Liber LXV? Read the brief commentary, do the small amount of research into the terms and concepts employed, then recite it with awareness and intention, and proceed to meditate for, say, a dedicated 30 minutes? It will turn into a longer period because one is simply unable and unwilling to cease the experience after a bit of proficiency. And one may dispense with the other claptrap altogether (unless further methods are revealed to the aspirant).

Additionally, one has the entirety of the Book as a guide. It is best to have the Commentary (and, perhaps, the incredible "I am the Heart" by J. Daniel Gunther). But between meditation, study, and application there is simply no need whatsoever for anything additional.

 

[jkeller293]

In this case "belief" is one of the things required to get into this state. You need to be convinced of the thing at a level below your conscious mind. I am not talking about any particular belief system - I am talking about the mechanism of belief itself.

It is (IMO) very similar to learning to ride a bike. When you first start learning, it's at the level of your conscious mind and you wobble about a lot

When you have actually learned, you no longer need to think consciously about the process of riding the bike - and in fact, if you do, it will actually make your bike riding worse at that point. It can get to the point where you arrive home and realise you can recall absolutely nothing about the journey.

So kind of like the idea "you are what you eat." Let me change that to "you are what you do." For example, if you are someone like myself that just reads about magick then i am now an arm chair magician. Now if i were to start acting out what i have learned in a specific way like perfoming a ritual or a spell — over time with myself constantly practicing magick everyday, i would now be a magician.

The point im making here is that the act of doing something habitually ends up becoming a subconscious habit that you do not really think about — it becomes automatic.

So would you think a very long ritual would have this type of strong influence on your belief in terms of you subconsciously recognizing that you are a real magician, therefore you now believe in the opperation you are performing thus making it a real thing? As i am thinking about this now, this may be the prima materia to magick itself, being the constant practice rather than just simply doing one ritual or spell.

Post automatically merged: Saturday at 12:44 PM

So kind of like the idea "you are what you eat." Let me change that to "you are what you do." For example, if you are someone like myself that just reads about magick then i am now an arm chair magician. Now if i were to start acting out what i have learned in a specific way like perfoming a ritual or a spell — over time with myself constantly practicing magick everyday, i would now be a magician.

The point im making here is that the act of doing something habitually ends up becoming a subconscious habit that you do not really think about — it becomes automatic.

So would you think a very long ritual would have this type of strong influence on your belief in terms of you subconsciously recognizing that you are a real magician, therefore you now believe in the opperation you are performing thus making it a real thing? As i am thinking about this now, this may be the prima materia to magick itself, being the constant practice rather than just simply doing one ritual or spell.

Rather than performing "the art" you become the art.

 

[Robert Ramsay]

Like any skill, the more hours you put in, hopefully the better you get

 

[bartyblack]

Why not simply use the proscribed invocation at the beginning of Liber LXV? Read the brief commentary, do the small amount of research into the terms and concepts employed, then recite it with awareness and intention, and proceed to meditate for, say, a dedicated 30 minutes? It will turn into a longer period because one is simply unable and unwilling to cease the experience after a bit of proficiency. And one may dispense with the other claptrap altogether (unless further methods are revealed to the aspirant).

Additionally, one has the entirety of the Book as a guide. It is best to have the Commentary (and, perhaps, the incredible "I am the Heart" by J. Daniel Gunther). But between meditation, study, and application there is simply no need whatsoever for anything additional.

I've already done the work, I just saw a video from somebody talking about how "weird and impossible" Abramelin is so wanted to put forth my theory as to why this idea exist. Liber LXV is great, personally even as a non-Thelemite I have a great appreciation for Crowley's work - but most people into traditional Western magick (whether due to ignorance or personal bias) don't take him seriously.