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Conflicting divination results?

HocusPocus

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I used the Yijing to ask about my future progress in one of my hobbies and got consistently negative results, telling me to quit because it's not in my fate to advance.

Conversely I did the Latter of Ascent ritual from the GoM book series and I got generally positive responses and good internal feelings from the Angels telling me everything's fine.

Of course I trust the Angels more but there's a hint of doubt and fear inside of me, how do you guys rectify something like this? Thanks in advance.
 

Khoren_

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First and foremost, the I Ching isn't a method of "divination" in the same sense as Tarot, or asking the spirits. The I Ching is only going to offer advice based on what it considers the "best path forward" given your path towards the Tao/Wu Wei. It's never going to "tell you your fate", but will rather give you advice for it. Also, afaik, there's not very many "negative" results in the I Ching, maybe you can share your results?
 

Xenophon

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I used the Yijing to ask about my future progress in one of my hobbies and got consistently negative results, telling me to quit because it's not in my fate to advance.

Conversely I did the Latter of Ascent ritual from the GoM book series and I got generally positive responses and good internal feelings from the Angels telling me everything's fine.

Of course I trust the Angels more but there's a hint of doubt and fear inside of me, how do you guys rectify something like this? Thanks in advance.
Which commentary on the I Ching do you use? A number of lines in the I Ching do not portend what some modern readers might assume they mean. Plus the Chinese of that era is highly allusive and presumes the reader was schooled in the traditions behind the book. Look through a few commentaries till one resonates. Or use several to get slightly varying perspectives. (In English, Wilhelm, Legge, Baynes, Lynn, and Rutt are all worth a look.) And, as Khoren notes, the text might warn of dangers, but this is not necessarily a prohibition, more like a "heads-up!"
 

HocusPocus

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First and foremost, the I Ching isn't a method of "divination" in the same sense as Tarot, or asking the spirits. The I Ching is only going to offer advice based on what it considers the "best path forward" given your path towards the Tao/Wu Wei. It's never going to "tell you your fate", but will rather give you advice for it. Also, afaik, there's not very many "negative" results in the I Ching, maybe you can share your results?

I asked it if I should give up my martial arts hobby to rehab a minor physical problem and it gave me no.55

Which translates to :

" This fortuitous hexagram implies a time of clarity, prosperity and completeness. Like lightning piercing through clouds, success can strike with incredible speed and force. However, the wise person remains cautious and knows that success often comes with associated dangers. Spend your success wisely and save portions for a time of need. Abundance can come and go. Stay in contact with the person within. You are your own best kept treasure. You are what you are seeking, and always have been. "

With one changing line :

" "Enjoying the Honeymoon"- With new found success comes great joy. Celebrate, by all means. But realize the future is not set. Care and prudence must not be forsaken. "

This to me imo seems to imply that I should quit kung fu to rehab this really muscle imbalance, which might impede my progress for a whole year :/ it's riddiculous to me given there were people with worse illnesses that recovered while practicing.
Post automatically merged:

Which commentary on the I Ching do you use? A number of lines in the I Ching do not portend what some modern readers might assume they mean. Plus the Chinese of that era is highly allusive and presumes the reader was schooled in the traditions behind the book. Look through a few commentaries till one resonates. Or use several to get slightly varying perspectives. (In English, Wilhelm, Legge, Baynes, Lynn, and Rutt are all worth a look.) And, as Khoren notes, the text might warn of dangers, but this is not necessarily a prohibition, more like a "heads-up!"

Good point, I only used ifate.com, I should go to a Temple and try it maybe? But I haven't been too one in a long time.
 

Xenophon

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I asked it if I should give up my martial arts hobby to rehab a minor physical problem and it gave me no.55

Which translates to :

" This fortuitous hexagram implies a time of clarity, prosperity and completeness. Like lightning piercing through clouds, success can strike with incredible speed and force. However, the wise person remains cautious and knows that success often comes with associated dangers. Spend your success wisely and save portions for a time of need. Abundance can come and go. Stay in contact with the person within. You are your own best kept treasure. You are what you are seeking, and always have been. "

With one changing line :

" "Enjoying the Honeymoon"- With new found success comes great joy. Celebrate, by all means. But realize the future is not set. Care and prudence must not be forsaken. "

This to me imo seems to imply that I should quit kung fu to rehab this really muscle imbalance, which might impede my progress for a whole year :/ it's riddiculous to me given there were people with worse illnesses that recovered while practicing.
Post automatically merged:



Good point, I only used ifate.com, I should go to a Temple and try it maybe? But I haven't been too one in a long time.
Which line did the oracle say to key in on? Generally one gets the hexagram then goes on to divine one of the six lines.

Still the overall reading could easily be read as rehabbing ("You are your own best kept treasure."), but only for the "time of need" it mentions. That's scarcely "quitting" the hobby. The changing line (assuming it's the one you were told to key in on) certainly points to a return to activity, albeit gradual.
 

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Which line did the oracle say to key in on? Generally one gets the hexagram then goes on to divine one of the six lines.

Still the overall reading could easily be read as rehabbing ("You are your own best kept treasure."), but only for the "time of need" it mentions. That's scarcely "quitting" the hobby. The changing line (assuming it's the one you were told to key in on) certainly points to a return to activity, albeit gradual.
First line.

My bad.

Thing with martial arts and the one I am in it takes a very long time to get good, the older you get the more your chances of reaching mastery is lessened. It said I need to give up ALL of my training as of right now. I confirmed with it via other readings, and my injury is a minor muscular imbalance.


Like I said the Angels seem to imply that everything's fine and they're helping me anyways but the IChing repeatedly tells me to quit and abandoned all kung fu for 1 year to 3 months.
 

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First line.

My bad.

Thing with martial arts and the one I am in it takes a very long time to get good, the older you get the more your chances of reaching mastery is lessened. It said I need to give up ALL of my training as of right now. I confirmed with it via other readings, and my injury is a minor muscular imbalance.


Like I said the Angels seem to imply that everything's fine and they're helping me anyways but the IChing repeatedly tells me to quit and abandoned all kung fu for 1 year to 3 months.
Like I said, the material you quoted from the Yijing sounds to me like a temporary hiatus.
 

HocusPocus

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Like I said, the material you quoted from the Yijing sounds to me like a temporary hiatus.

I'm sorry I forgot to emphasize my point. It's a temporary hiatus that would HARM my kung fu results severely I cannot in anyway see this being positive.

I might lose contact with my teachers once I take a break and be unable to find them again.
 

Xenophon

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I'm sorry I forgot to emphasize my point. It's a temporary hiatus that would HARM my kung fu results severely I cannot in anyway see this being positive.

I might lose contact with my teachers once I take a break and be unable to find them again.
I suppose we need to define "temporary" here. Do your teachers have some reason for being hard to find? (Everyone I've met in Asia scans WeChat before they say hello the first time.)
 

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As I've come to see it, the Yijing, particularly the Zhouyi, is so archaic and multilayered, with so many reinterpretations through the ages, that it is impossible to reconstruct its "original meaning" . If you look at various classic translations, like Wilhelm-Baynes and Legge, and also some more recent scholarly translations like Lynn, you'll notice that some passages have radically different translations even though the underlying text is the same. Just look at the titles of the hexagrams, which consist of one or two characters that often have complicated histories, resulting in translations that seem completely unrelated. Having dug down into the etymology/ philology/ commentarial tradition of some of these passages, I've found that there is usually a good evidence-based argument to be made for each of the variant readings, even though they can't both be right (or can they?), so that it's very hard to decide which is actually correct, or even if it is possible to say there is a correct one.

The Great Commentary and other important commentarial material was written by people already several centuries away from the text's origin, in a really different social and political climate, and different concerns.

There is already an interpretative tension embedded in the text itself with the judgment and image texts and this later blooms into rival schools of interpretation, most importantly the image-number and meaning-principle schools. The modern traditions of interpretation more or less descend from ways of thought that coalesced in the Song dynasty. So with the Wilhelm I Ching, for instance, we get an excellent presentation of a Qing dynasty scholars' reading of the book that ultimately traces back to Zhu Xi and his school. This Confucian reading is the one westerners know best. In China itself the more popular mode of Yijing divination is the plum blossom method which is attributed to the Song philosopher Shao Yang, and which is very much in the image-number vein which largely ignores the text, focusing on the hexagram lines.

It might be worth noting that the yarrow stalk method, as we have it, which is often presented as the older or more traditional method, is actually a reconstruction by Zhu Xi based on some educated guesses. The original yarrow stalk method was lost in the mists of time and the coin method is actually older than Zhu Xi's.

My point in saying all this is not to say Yijing divination is hopelessly ambiguous but that you more or less have to decide for yourself which interpretive mode works best.
Conversely I did the Latter of Ascent ritual from the GoM book series and I got generally positive responses and good internal feelings from the Angels telling me everything's fine.

Of course I trust the Angels more but there's a hint of doubt and fear inside of me, how do you guys rectify something like this? Thanks in advance.

The question here is, who do you think is speaking through the Yijing? Generally it is not held to be book speaking for itself but the ritual voice of gods and spirits. For the Bronze age diviners that would be, perhaps, the Zhou dynasty ancestors; for Confucians it was the deified sages (especially Yao, Shun, Yu, and the putative author of the hexagrams, Fu Xi). So if you think you are getting conflicting methods from other oracles, it may be because there are different entities with conflicting opinions.

That said, as someone else said, Yijing interpretation is not usually about a simple “do this” or “don’t”, even if that might seem obvious from a bare reading of the text. It is more about where a given action or situation will lead and also how different outcomes may be obtained. Here the moving lines are key.
 

HocusPocus

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I suppose we need to define "temporary" here. Do your teachers have some reason for being hard to find? (Everyone I've met in Asia scans WeChat before they say hello the first time.)


Yeah in my art it takes alot to get good, talent, health, etc.

Takes 3 years to even get the basic body to start doing okay, and then there's alot of refinements. You live in China you probably know how it is, most people get tired, etc. It's better to start the younger you are.

I am just curious why it conflicts so much with what I got from the Ladder of Ascent, maybe its because the Ladder also involved me asking the Angels to help me out?

Another curious thing is that the Yijing in all the reading I've asked it, always seem to imply that I am meant to live a sad and pathetic life where I must rely on other's pity to survive to learn some 'great lesson'.

If that's the case is it possible to circumvent this future.
Post automatically merged:

As I've come to see it, the Yijing, particularly the Zhouyi, is so archaic and multilayered, with so many reinterpretations through the ages, that it is impossible to reconstruct its "original meaning" . If you look at various classic translations, like Wilhelm-Baynes and Legge, and also some more recent scholarly translations like Lynn, you'll notice that some passages have radically different translations even though the underlying text is the same. Just look at the titles of the hexagrams, which consist of one or two characters that often have complicated histories, resulting in translations that seem completely unrelated. Having dug down into the etymology/ philology/ commentarial tradition of some of these passages, I've found that there is usually a good evidence-based argument to be made for each of the variant readings, even though they can't both be right (or can they?), so that it's very hard to decide which is actually correct, or even if it is possible to say there is a correct one.

The Great Commentary and other important commentarial material was written by people already several centuries away from the text's origin, in a really different social and political climate, and different concerns.

There is already an interpretative tension embedded in the text itself with the judgment and image texts and this later blooms into rival schools of interpretation, most importantly the image-number and meaning-principle schools. The modern traditions of interpretation more or less descend from ways of thought that coalesced in the Song dynasty. So with the Wilhelm I Ching, for instance, we get an excellent presentation of a Qing dynasty scholars' reading of the book that ultimately traces back to Zhu Xi and his school. This Confucian reading is the one westerners know best. In China itself the more popular mode of Yijing divination is the plum blossom method which is attributed to the Song philosopher Shao Yang, and which is very much in the image-number vein which largely ignores the text, focusing on the hexagram lines.

It might be worth noting that the yarrow stalk method, as we have it, which is often presented as the older or more traditional method, is actually a reconstruction by Zhu Xi based on some educated guesses. The original yarrow stalk method was lost in the mists of time and the coin method is actually older than Zhu Xi's.

My point in saying all this is not to say Yijing divination is hopelessly ambiguous but that you more or less have to decide for yourself which interpretive mode works best.


The question here is, who do you think is speaking through the Yijing? Generally it is not held to be book speaking for itself but the ritual voice of gods and spirits. For the Bronze age diviners that would be, perhaps, the Zhou dynasty ancestors; for Confucians it was the deified sages (especially Yao, Shun, Yu, and the putative author of the hexagrams, Fu Xi). So if you think you are getting conflicting methods from other oracles, it may be because there are different entities with conflicting opinions.

That said, as someone else said, Yijing interpretation is not usually about a simple “do this” or “don’t”, even if that might seem obvious from a bare reading of the text. It is more about where a given action or situation will lead and also how different outcomes may be obtained. Here the moving lines are key.

You know your point about the Gods/Spirits speaking to you is interesting, I've always wondered what did exactly speak to us. In the temples it was always the Buddhas, and in the classics it's the Heavens.

Someone said it was your deep subconscious mind, I am wondering if the malignant remnants from my past is causing this? The IChing told me on more than one occassion my life is meant to be miserable and I am meant to learn some 'grand' lesson from all the suffering I go through.
 
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pixel_fortune

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I would read it as "you won't achieve mastery" (but you already knew that, right? You have to start at like 10 to reach your full genetic potential at any sport) but, that it will still be very good for your personal development, so the angels think you should keep going with it

From a non-divination perspective, your attitude to injuries and rehab is off-kilter. Everyone who trains seriously at any physical disciple gets injured and needs to take time off rehab. It's built in. Bruce Lee injured his back in 1970 and was bedbound for 3 months (and much longer still until he could perform at his prior level). EVERY athlete has to take time off from training to rehab injuries, because every athlete gets injured at some point, and they know it is the best move for their long term career to rehab it instead of pushing it till it becomes a disability. If you want to train in martial arts, you need to be willing to take rehab breaks sometimes, like everyone else does
 

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I am meant to live a sad and pathetic life where I must rely on other's pity to survive to learn some 'great lesson'.
Perhaps it thinks you're arrogant and have peaked unless you get off your horse and humble yourself. Could be accurate, and your strong repulsion from the answer might be proof that it's accurate, who knows 🦉

I've never seen the I-ching dunk on someone who didn't deserve it, usually people who create conflict & are full of arrogance.
 

HocusPocus

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I would read it as "you won't achieve mastery" (but you already knew that, right? You have to start at like 10 to reach your full genetic potential at any sport) but, that it will still be very good for your personal development, so the angels think you should keep going with it

From a non-divination perspective, your attitude to injuries and rehab is off-kilter. Everyone who trains seriously at any physical disciple gets injured and needs to take time off rehab. It's built in. Bruce Lee injured his back in 1970 and was bedbound for 3 months (and much longer still until he could perform at his prior level). EVERY athlete has to take time off from training to rehab injuries, because every athlete gets injured at some point, and they know it is the best move for their long term career to rehab it instead of pushing it till it becomes a disability. If you want to train in martial arts, you need to be willing to take rehab breaks sometimes, like everyone else does

No I got a pretty plain answer that I will reach the highest level that I can at least, and that everything's generally fine it's just how hard I am willing to go really. Even then it's a far-cry from what the Yijing gave me which was a really abysmal answer. I do agree that I might not be the best, but the peak of where you are at least seems reasonable especially since I started young-ish(?). Alot of people started my age and got pretty decent actually.

I also agree with you rehab is necessary but only for super serious injuries, the injury I have is rather minor and I've had it for 2 years doesn't impede my day to day. But my current focus is to have my whole body relax and the practices I do are generally meant to be therapeutic along with increasing martial arts skills. In fact the standing meditation I do is supposed to help with muscle tension. I mean so far I am making good progress but something happened a few weeks ago that made me wonder if I am worsening my injury and counter-acting my zhan zhuang progress due to the requirements of the standing.
 

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No I got a pretty plain answer that I will reach the highest level that I can at least, and that everything's generally fine it's just how hard I am willing to go really. Even then it's a far-cry from what the Yijing gave me which was a really abysmal answer. I do agree that I might not be the best, but the peak of where you are at least seems reasonable especially since I started young-ish(?). Alot of people started my age and got pretty decent actually.

I also agree with you rehab is necessary but only for super serious injuries, the injury I have is rather minor and I've had it for 2 years doesn't impede my day to day. But my current focus is to have my whole body relax and the practices I do are generally meant to be therapeutic along with increasing martial arts skills. In fact the standing meditation I do is supposed to help with muscle tension. I mean so far I am making good progress but something happened a few weeks ago that made me wonder if I am worsening my injury and counter-acting my zhan zhuang progress due to the requirements of the standing.
"We choose our advice in our choice of advisor."---Sartre If the I Ching brings you down, fire it. The worst that could happen is that it was right, right? Get an oracle advisor that's not a little thundercloud following you around.
 

HocusPocus

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"We choose our advice in our choice of advisor."---Sartre If the I Ching brings you down, fire it. The worst that could happen is that it was right, right? Get an oracle advisor that's not a little thundercloud following you around.

I agree with you I just wanted to see how much members here such as yourself had experience with it, and @Xingtian brought up a great point that SOMETHING is communicating with you, you just don't know what.

These overly negative results I suspect maybe the work of unresolved trauma? It's either that or my fate is really badly written and I need to find a way to overcome it.

Just weighing my options. But generally in my training for now I see really good results.
 

Xenophon

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I agree with you I just wanted to see how much members here such as yourself had experience with it, and @Xingtian brought up a great point that SOMETHING is communicating with you, you just don't know what.

These overly negative results I suspect maybe the work of unresolved trauma? It's either that or my fate is really badly written and I need to find a way to overcome it.

Just weighing my options. But generally in my training for now I see really good results.
Plutarch is full of instances where the various ancients ignored oracles with acceptable results.
 

HocusPocus

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Plutarch is full of instances where the various ancients ignored oracles with acceptable results.

I suppose so. What choice do I even have? To give up my training for 1 year just because a couple of coins told me so?

Who knows. Only time can answer my question I suppose. Thank you.
 
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