Do you prefer ceremonial or folk style practices?

[blankindexcard]

I like the idea of folk magic in general, but my ADHD operating system brain really likes step-by-step instructions of ceremonial style rituals. Just kind of curious how people feel in general.

 

[Lurking Magician]

Different objectives require different paradigms.

To contact Planetary spirits or intelligences, I use ceremonial magic: it is respectful and proper, much like I'd use formal language and attire for a meeting doing business in a big firm.

For local spirits, folk magic is better, it is what they're used to (and I feel that if I were to use ceremonial with them, they could misinterpret it as me mocking them)

For gods, it depends. Some like big complex rituals in old languages, some are ok with a smaller or more modern rite.

For spells, the more variables there are, the more I'm going with ceremonial, to make sure the spells does exactly what I want; for lesser endeavours, folk magic can honestly do wonders.

 

[Saint]

I prefer my own ways.
Nothing requires ceremonial magic as a 'must', until you chose to go by it for whatever reason.
Any result you aim for can work without flashy ceremonies, or without any form of step by step instruction. Some people cling to it, others are confident in their knowledge and experiences and thankfully, they can do it themselves without others telling them how to.

Why people do it anyway? Their mind, psyché and channels need a stimulation to get a support for the process, and to them, a flashy ritual and the vibe and energetic stance help to set up and tune themselves to the matter. It can become a habit eventually, too. Some people find this approach, this kind of support effective and they stick to it.

Do we need this for a successful outcome? Not at all.

There are people who can set themselves up without needing such an intense crutch.
ㅤThis is not different than other solutions for setting themselves up; some use substances, herbs, others have their own routines to get into the right state, the outcome can be equally successful, ultimately it's 'us' who are the key here, not the 'method'; that's why you see people failing with the most simple, cliché and chewed up ways, and sometimes with the 'most hidden and said to be valuable and real' ones digged up from whatever book written by who-ever.

People need time to understand that method is secondary, it serves you, not you serve the method that brings result.

Many people have no clue how magic works, how spirituality truly is, and what about entities, they just grab books, pdfs, texts found on the interned, or said in a YT or TikTok short, and mimic it, and wait something to happen. Sometimes it does sometimes it doesn't, but none would truly work without you tuned on, opened up, making the shot yourself. If you are scared to make your own step first, that's fine.
ㅤI'm not 'demonising' people trying out new things they found, before anyone would feel this way. It's essential to seek out, try, observe, draw conclusions, move on, nothing wrong about it! But eventually, you should get out of this box, for through your practice you should also understand yourself, magic and entities themselves, and this will give you freedom. Freedom from feeling like you must find the truth withing pages and online sites and other social media platforms made by someone you don't even know. It's perfectly fine to read too, nothing wrong about it, but remind yourself is it you who is writing your own practice and life or someone else(s)? To me it'd be unbearable.

As for deities, Infernals, Angels or other entities, none of them demand flashy rituals and fancy offerings for the sake of it. This is a false belief. These rituals help you more than them, and it matters more to you than them.
ㅤDeities won't work you more eagerly or less whether you do a grandiose ritual or not, that's the truth. You can spend thousands of $ on badass altars and edgy clothings, buy a lot of tools none of you truly needed, and you won't be seen or sensed differently than a homeless making a contact behind a big dumpster in his own solitude.
ㅤIf you understand how connections are made, if you understand how communication happen, if you understand how well they see through you from the moment, if you realise how it's not the physical world around you nor your body that's truly matter, if you realise who you are and what they see and sense when approached, or that what's the true purpose of this 'you need to do that, buy these, yap those X times, hop there, do a flip', you will figure out how most of these fancy rituals with all the preparation are for yourself, not for them.

They don't live on the physical world, whatever you are doing in your room or outside have no significant impact on them, it has impact on you, your energetic structure, your psychic stance, the openness of your mind. They know who you are, they know your goal, your intent, they are aware of how you see them, whether you have respect and genuinity or not; sugarcoating whatever you do won't make a difference in the outcome.

To close this, without getting into too much details, I have personal experience with a person who was into very ceremonical, very grandiose rituals, from frequent blood sacrifices to dark robes and gathering group chantings and trances.
The man wanted to turn his own worshipped Infernal against me, because unlike him, I refused to worship him in the same ways: it was Lucifer.
When I've got warned about his attempts to harm me, I gave him one last warning to stop with the weekend seances. He ignored it and proceed.
How it worked out for him?
Lucifer himself wrecked this guy's life for good, taking his family (father and mother), job, health within weeks for it, causing him to vanish from the community and have his occult group disband in an instant.

So, again,
Does - not - matter
how fancy you want your ritual to look.
If you know you know.

 

[Keldan]

I do folk practices for everything from spells, spirits to deities. I do work with beings that are from deities’ realms. So it isn’t disrespectful.

 

[Mallard]

I would lean Saint's way as well. There is power in ritual, but it is to get YOU in the proper magickal state. I do think many "material items" do aid in workings (sympathy), and the auspices of planetary rulers and such - but you could do you working just as well, with zero trappings, tools or external factors, if you know how to work with said Powers and Mysteries, and your will and focus are strong enough.

 

[MorganBlack]

It's false dichotomy, The endless debate between rigid formalism and intuitive working. I love conjure style working and I love full ceremony. Each have their place.

A caveat up front. The Grimorium Verum is my only grim so I can't speak to the daimons who respond to the names and stories in the Lesser Key.

See Conjureman Ali, a hoodoo rootworker, using the GV without completing the formal diplomatic protocols.

JSK Verum: Conjureman Ali - 'Verum Hoodoo Results' (2011)

I'm glad people are interested in the Grimorium Verum again. I was not aware it was on anyone's radar much. I hope this unedited Yahoo Groups post from Conjureman Ali (albertgreat27 ) from 2011 will be useful to those starting to explore the Verum “system” as JSK would sometimes phrase it...

wizardforums.com

The Conjure method totally works. Peter Grey has speculated that most preationers have historically used this methods and not the full ritual. I have used Brujería/Conjure style workings with daimons I don’t have formal alliances with. It’s more seat of your pants, and you’re effectively foregoing some protections of the more formal GV protocols.

In general, this is mostly about getting their attention, and there are many entry points into working with the class of daimon that responds to the Grimorium Verum.

I've used the Lesser Key a couple of times and found the manifestations much more trippy. With the GV, they are darker and much more solid - even showing up in my game room, as visibly solid as you , or a refrigerator. Not all the time, of course, and I am sually not ritually demanidng / willing they do so, outside of formal rites. More Solomonic practitioners tend to so a bit overboard there. The GV is much more "witchy," in practice and has more of the so-called "spirit-frinedly" approach baked in .

Anyway, you can think of the GV as an Underworld Bat Signal. Once Batman shows up, you can turn off the lights and get down to negotiation and diplomacy.

FYI: some - but not all - of the GV daimons, particularly those under Beelzebuth (a hot and dangerous spirit), are absolute sticklers for formal ritual protocols. Be on your best behavior when you call that part of the Infernal Hierarchy. They can be the meanest of the mean.

Regarding Daemonolatry methods. I’d say try them first, you never know. Sometimes we already have their attention by dint of birth and circumstance. But watching so many people get nothing but dead air with simplified conjuring, then beware of wishful thinking and ego projection. If you get no response, maybe it's time to up your ceremony game a little.

And if the very idea of ceremony bothers you, I recommend learning about the rituals of Indigenous shamanic practitioners. Ceremony for shamans is not this mechanistic light switch white people seem to think it is. It is how we humans establish co-creative relationships with the spirit world. The grimoires preseve this ancient shamanic approach much better than people suspect.

 

[VenusSatanas]

Theurgy vs Thaumaturgy - each has it's own purpose and goals. For instance, would you want to conjure a demon to do something for you that you could easily do on your own with a simple spell? That would be overkill. However, if what you wanted to achieve was more complex than what a simple witchcraft spell could handle, then yes it would be more useful to do a series of rituals instead. It's not that ceremonial magic is more structured, but rather that it has a different goal.

You can find step by step instruction for working with basic magics. Even chaos magic has it's own steps. And it's very powerful on it's own. But, just following the steps in a ritual won't always get you your intended outcome. What you want to achieve depends on various factors, and the easier it is to push or change into results you want, the easier it would be to use witchcraft, folk magic, or even just sigil magic.

 

[Morell]

I do my own rituals, some based on traditions, some on my own intuition... or coming from communication with spirits...