Egocentrism and Magic

[CunningWyse]

I have been practicing magic for quite some time. And from consistent years of study and being directly involved with the greater occult and Pagan community it seems as if there is something about what we do that makes it easy for many to get stuck in their own ego. Now, egocentric magicians is nothing new, even amongst the cunning Folk, there was bitterness and backbiting. But after 2 decades of practicing magic, I can say with certainty that it is childish and stems from unacknowledged and unhealed insecurity. And the only reason I can say that with confidence is because I myself had to look at those parts of myself and be very, very brutally honest. There is no tradition of magic more potent than another. These are systems that work in a specific way. You must train hard in a tradition to reach even an intermediate level. There are only two kinds of practitioners: competent and incompetent. A powerful practitioner never has to speak in a Self-important or snobbish way. A competent and Powerful Practitioner doesn't have to say anything when in the room of their peers. Your presence speaks for itself. Humbleness and dedication make for a competent practitioner. No amount of theorizing, armchair sorcery, Or snobbery will make you a competent practitioner.
I have had the absolute blessing of getting to know some of the greatest practitioners of our age. Some of them are famous authors, and others are famous in their communities. And all of them are from different traditions, and all of them are brilliant. Ceremonial magicians(Solomon, Faustian, Enochian Etc), Vodou (Haiti) and Vodun( Benin) priestesses and Priests, Priests and priestesses of Santeria, seiðkona, Chaos magicians, and So many others. And all of them taught me what it meant to be powerful. not power over, but power with. power with the land and the spirits, power with our communities, And the power that comes from getting to know oneself.
It's important that we do this work with integrity, humbleness, and honesty. This work is designed to trip you up, potentially even harm you if you lie to yourself. Magic, regardless of tradition, has a way of knowing exactly who you are, and it asks for you to know the same. "Delphic maxim"(Know thyself). Remember, you can't outrun yourself.

 

[IllusiveOwl]

I found it more than a little amusing that you speak poorly of other magicians as being insecure, boasting and letting more than "their presence" speak for themselves, that they don't have to air out their resumens when they enter a room, while doing the opposite yourself, flashing that you have 20 years experience, giving a lengthy list of different types of practitioners you met (and So many others), and boasting about how you've been taught by / rubbed shoulders with "some of the greatest practitioners of our age" to give yourself credence. I actually wonder if this post is satire, given how it does nothing but validate your own ego and flash your vanity / superiority while complaining about that same quality in others.

I also very much disagree with your dichotomy of all practitioners: the competent and the incompetent, this is a very childish and elitist way of discounting those who haven't found their footing / fame yet. If I were to try and salvage your duality, I would instead say "The dedicated vs the hobbyists." There are many incompetent practitioners who are earnestly striving, and who thrash against their delusion earnestly in an attempt to become "competent", meanwhile there are plenty of competent magicians who - in their success - become lazy, paranoid, complacent, and egocentric. Just look at all the con-artist Gurus who have plenty of power, yet use it to create cults of personality. Some of the people you would label as "incompetent" are actually the most humble and earnest strivers towards truth because likely you haven't ever heard of them, meanwhile I'm sure plenty of the big names you've met are nothing more than charlatans who have wooed you with their wisdom to enthrall you.

If this post wasn't a flat out joke, you may still need to do some serious self reflection because this post drips with self-importance (note that while you are talking about the magical community as a whole, most of it is just about you.)

 

[CunningWyse]

I found it more than a little amusing that you speak poorly of other magicians as being insecure, boasting and letting more than "their presence" speak for themselves, that they don't have to air out their resumens when they enter a room, while doing the opposite yourself, flashing that you have 20 years experience, giving a lengthy list of different types of practitioners you met (and So many others), and boasting about how you've been taught by / rubbed shoulders with "some of the greatest practitioners of our age" to give yourself credence. I actually wonder if this post is satire, given how it does nothing but validate your own ego and flash your vanity / superiority while complaining about that same quality in others.

I also very much disagree with your dichotomy of all practitioners: the competent and the incompetent, this is a very childish and elitist way of discounting those who haven't found their footing / fame yet. If I were to try and salvage your duality, I would instead say "The dedicated vs the hobbyists." There are many incompetent practitioners who are earnestly striving, and who thrash against their delusion earnestly in an attempt to become "competent", meanwhile there are plenty of competent magicians who - in their success - become lazy, paranoid, complacent, and egocentric. Just look at all the con-artist Gurus who have plenty of power, yet use it to create cults of personality. Some of the people you would label as "incompetent" are actually the most humble and earnest strivers towards truth because likely you haven't ever heard of them, meanwhile I'm sure plenty of the big names you've met are nothing more than charlatans who have wooed you with their wisdom to enthrall you.

If this post wasn't a flat out joke, you may still need to do some serious self reflection because this post drips with self-importance (note that while you are talking about the magical community as a whole, most of it is just about you.)

Firstly, I didn't disrespect you, and you're not going to disrespect me. I am willing to have a conversation with you, but you will not talk to me in any way you want to. So take a minute, regulate yourself, and come back.

Now that that's done, I mentioned the opportunities that I've had to meet people from traditions because all of those people are in my experience competent and effective practitioners, and all of them were kind, gentle people who didn't take themselves so seriously. I was not in any way listing out a resume., I didn't drop names, I didn't say that I or anyone else was better than anyone else,Except for those who take themselves too seriously and think themselves superior. I'm calling out egos I'm seeing it here, like I have seen on Tumblr and in other occult spaces online and in person. I'm not talking about people new to the arte, I am talking about practitioners with years under their belt who think that they are better than somebody else. my point was that people who think that their tradition is somehow Superior to another are often insecure and incompetent, and they are.

I can empathize with you getting activated and reactionary. It's normal to get big feelings and feel confronted. But nothing I said is untrue, And nothing you said takes away from my point. if you think yourself better than other people you are an incompetent magician. if one can recognize that they probably don't know as much as they think they do, and that it's more about how much effort you put into the systems that you work within, then you actually start to get somewhere.

There are plenty of hobbyists who are incredible at Magic, there are plenty of lay people who don't want to be professional practitioners. nurses, psychologists, lawyers, Laborers, even disabled people. It almost reads as if you were starting to feel as if I was trying to say that differently abled or disabled people couldn't be competent magicians but that's not at all what I was saying. Is that what You mean by “thrash against their own delusion”

Because I am mentally ill and neurodiverse. I've been in treatment for 7 years so if that's what you were getting at. that's not at all what I was saying, again I was talking about snobbish people who think that they are better. That's all. You added things that weren't there. And you read into things because it's what you expected. And this is why we have to have conversations, because oftentimes when we're having big feelings, we're not thinking right, and we end up saying things that aren't true or misinterpreting what somebody else has said.

Moving forward, I expect respect, which is how I would treat anyone else. And if you don't feel that you can be respectful, then you can ignore me or block me.

 

[HoldAll]

I agree with @IllusiveOwl, there is not much about egocentrism in your post and more what you're all about yourself as a practitioner who ticks all the correct boxes in contrast to other people who don't measure up to the ideals you prescribe. It's more like a self-congratulatory introductory post than anything else.

 

[Morell]

Firstly, I didn't disrespect you, and you're not going to disrespect me. I am willing to have a conversation with you, but you will not talk to me in any way you want to. So take a minute, regulate yourself, and come back.

Now that that's done, I mentioned the opportunities that I've had to meet people from traditions because all of those people are in my experience competent and effective practitioners, and all of them were kind, gentle people who didn't take themselves so seriously. I was not in any way listing out a resume., I didn't drop names, I didn't say that I or anyone else was better than anyone else,Except for those who take themselves too seriously and think themselves superior. I'm calling out egos I'm seeing it here, like I have seen on Tumblr and in other occult spaces online and in person. I'm not talking about people new to the arte, I am talking about practitioners with years under their belt who think that they are better than somebody else. my point was that people who think that their tradition is somehow Superior to another are often insecure and incompetent, and they are.

I can empathize with you getting activated and reactionary. It's normal to get big feelings and feel confronted. But nothing I said is untrue, And nothing you said takes away from my point. if you think yourself better than other people you are an incompetent magician. if one can recognize that they probably don't know as much as they think they do, and that it's more about how much effort you put into the systems that you work within, then you actually start to get somewhere.

There are plenty of hobbyists who are incredible at Magic, there are plenty of lay people who don't want to be professional practitioners. nurses, psychologists, lawyers, Laborers, even disabled people. It almost reads as if you were starting to feel as if I was trying to say that differently abled or disabled people couldn't be competent magicians but that's not at all what I was saying. Is that what You mean by “thrash against their own delusion”

Because I am mentally ill and neurodiverse. I've been in treatment for 7 years so if that's what you were getting at. that's not at all what I was saying, again I was talking about snobbish people who think that they are better. That's all. You added things that weren't there. And you read into things because it's what you expected. And this is why we have to have conversations, because oftentimes when we're having big feelings, we're not thinking right, and we end up saying things that aren't true or misinterpreting what somebody else has said.

Moving forward, I expect respect, which is how I would treat anyone else. And if you don't feel that you can be respectful, then you can ignore me or block me.

Do not misplace honesty for egoism. Well, that is what this threat is about after all. I like your OP, it's interesting to read about what other people experience.

But do not forget to listen to other people even when they say something you might not like at all. They might be right. Watch out that you see things as they are and not as you want them to be.

 

[IllusiveOwl]

Firstly, I didn't disrespect you, and you're not going to disrespect me. I am willing to have a conversation with you, but you will not talk to me in any way you want to. So take a minute, regulate yourself, and come back.

I hate to be the barer of bad news, but as a free individual, I may speak with you anyway I wish, and you may do the same to me. It's a very cute way to start a response off though, I'm sure it works well in less individuated echo-chamber spaces. Don't project your instability onto me, though, I'm as cool as a cucumber

all of them were kind, gentle people who didn't take themselves so seriously

It may help you to learn this lesson from them. I can feel the sweat on your keyboard, hear the sound of your heart pounding above it's normal rate, taste the cortisol being released in your adrenaline gland and that sweet delicious adrenochrome.

my point was that people who think that their tradition is somehow Superior to another are often insecure and incompetent, and they are.

You are my knight in shining armor, however there is a very bitter taste to this sentiment. I don't see how it's any better insulting individual practitioners directly than attacking their tradition abstractly. The difference here is that you're sniping people personally calling them incompetent, instead of groups of people. Calling anyone or anything illegitimate is a childish move.

I can empathize with you getting activated and reactionary. It's normal to get big feelings and feel confronted. But nothing I said is untrue, And nothing you said takes away from my point.

Is that what You mean by “thrash against their own delusion”

It's interesting you're attempting to twist my earnest attempt at fixing your dichotomy into ableism of all things. It's also quite telling you can't properly interpret what the phrase "thrash against their own delusion" means intuitively as a magician. I simply refuse to explain this in detail, because I know when my effort is wasted.

You added things that weren't there.

No, I didn't, I repeated back to you exactly what you wrote.

I expect respect

You will find yourself sorely disappointed, expecting anything from anyone. However, discovering you are mentally ill, I'll ease up on you, that was context I did not have and things are making more sense. I have worked caring and supporting the mentally ill professionally and understand the grave context that not everyone cognitively is on the same foot and that some require more help and patience than others. I'll simply ignore you from now on, to avoid giving you a truth meal that may upset you, and allow you to grow at a pace comfortable with you.

Post automatically merged: Saturday at 9:01 AM

I do wish to make an addendum that I respect all disabled and neuro-divergent peoples and practitioners. I myself have brain damage and struggle with my own disorders, said disorders sometimes come out and make my words venomous and cutting. While I stand by everything I wrote here confidently, I want to make it clear that I don't discredit anyone because they are mentally ill or neurodivergant, I simply think this specific OP is incorrect, and given that they said themselves how they want to look at themselves with brutal honesty, that is what I decided to offer, to aid their development.

 

[Horologer]

Of course, I am not a magician in the usual sense of the word, but I think I understand the author of this post and what he was trying to say. Although he presented it in a very strange way.


So, let’s look at egocentrism among magicians with a concrete example. In 2019, an interesting idea came up — to revive a closed techno-magical clan of magicians. The idea wasn’t mine, but I was asked to bring it to life. Ok, I took it on. I started searching for magicians and similar people on social networks and Facebook. I initiated conversations, gradually moving toward our proposal.


But 99% of them had an extremely inflated Ego. To them, I was someone not worthy of their attention. There were all kinds of situations. Still, I managed to gather 23 people. Among them were people from Ukraine, Germany, Czech Republic, Israel, Russia, and Bulgaria. It was a great project, but after 6 months it fell apart due to that very same egocentrism and the unwillingness to listen to each other’s opinions.


Conclusion — The main problem of magicians is egocentrism. This has been tested and proven.

 

[IllusiveOwl]

Conclusion — The main problem of magicians is egocentrism. This has been tested and proven.

I believe this conclusion is a little too simplistic, and your evidence is crazy anecdotal.

People in general are egocentric, it's considered very healthy and normal to live your life with an ego, to see yourself at the central infallible hero of your story, and to think unrealistically highly of yourself. That is how the average person lives their life, and narcissism in general has been on the rise since the influencer trend has made it accessible for anyone to be a celebrity. The problem is that the average person is profoundly sick and living a self-perpetuated lie. Every early-stage magician will have this curse, and will be delusional pompous maniacs full of bulging resumes and tons of bullshit.

Magicians don't seek to be celebrities - real ones anyway - they seek to be even more absurdly powerful and influential, so it's not shocking that there'd be plenty of narcissists here, but the difference is that many are aware of this and actively seeking to grow beyond the unhealthy egocentric delusion, with ego-dissolving enlightenment being the first step to many real magicians.

Academia is full of just as many narcissists with just as much infighting. The same can be said for Politics. Any endeavor that humans take together, the biggest obstacle will always be the humans involved. Magicians aren't any different, though there is at least a way beyond it for those of us who are victorious.

It's worth noting that a particularly high number of people who identify as Magicians, Mystics, Shamans, or anyone in this general realm of thought are unusual and the ideas many of us experiment with can blow up in our faces with a case of "I'm the next Jesus". It's an extremely complex situation, in some contexts the magician's egocentrism can be their greatest strength, as their light grows in size, others shrink in comparison, until the magician is left in darkness aside from the light of his own lamp. You need to be able to trust yourself and know yourself thoroughly at that point.

The topic of this thread is so complicated and it deserves to be explored, it's just so frustrating how childish it's been so far, because objectively as human beings, our egos are an untamed beast that we need to tame, and a significant amount of magic is dedicated to that very achievement.

 

[Horologer]

I believe this conclusion is a little too simplistic, and your evidence is crazy anecdotal.

People in general are egocentric, it's considered very healthy and normal to live your life with an ego, to see yourself at the central infallible hero of your story, and to think unrealistically highly of yourself. That is how the average person lives their life, and narcissism in general has been on the rise since the influencer trend has made it accessible for anyone to be a celebrity. The problem is that the average person is profoundly sick and living a self-perpetuated lie. Every early-stage magician will have this curse, and will be delusional pompous maniacs full of bulging resumes and tons of bullshit.

Magicians don't seek to be celebrities - real ones anyway - they seek to be even more absurdly powerful and influential, so it's not shocking that there'd be plenty of narcissists here, but the difference is that many are aware of this and actively seeking to grow beyond the unhealthy egocentric delusion, with ego-dissolving enlightenment being the first step to many real magicians.

Academia is full of just as many narcissists with just as much infighting. The same can be said for Politics. Any endeavor that humans take together, the biggest obstacle will always be the humans involved. Magicians aren't any different, though there is at least a way beyond it for those of us who are victorious.

It's worth noting that a particularly high number of people who identify as Magicians, Mystics, Shamans, or anyone in this general realm of thought are unusual and the ideas many of us experiment with can blow up in our faces with a case of "I'm the next Jesus". It's an extremely complex situation, in some contexts the magician's egocentrism can be their greatest strength, as their light grows in size, others shrink in comparison, until the magician is left in darkness aside from the light of his own lamp. You need to be able to trust yourself and know yourself thoroughly at that point.

The topic of this thread is so complicated and it deserves to be explored, it's just so frustrating how childish it's been so far, because objectively as human beings, our egos are an untamed beast that we need to tame, and a significant amount of magic is dedicated to that very achievement.

I’ve had a question for you for a long time. Tell me, besides your opinion, do other opinions even exist???

Post automatically merged: Saturday at 12:32 PM

I believe this conclusion is a little too simplistic, and your evidence is crazy anecdotal.

People in general are egocentric, it's considered very healthy and normal to live your life with an ego, to see yourself at the central infallible hero of your story, and to think unrealistically highly of yourself. That is how the average person lives their life, and narcissism in general has been on the rise since the influencer trend has made it accessible for anyone to be a celebrity. The problem is that the average person is profoundly sick and living a self-perpetuated lie. Every early-stage magician will have this curse, and will be delusional pompous maniacs full of bulging resumes and tons of bullshit.

Magicians don't seek to be celebrities - real ones anyway - they seek to be even more absurdly powerful and influential, so it's not shocking that there'd be plenty of narcissists here, but the difference is that many are aware of this and actively seeking to grow beyond the unhealthy egocentric delusion, with ego-dissolving enlightenment being the first step to many real magicians.

Academia is full of just as many narcissists with just as much infighting. The same can be said for Politics. Any endeavor that humans take together, the biggest obstacle will always be the humans involved. Magicians aren't any different, though there is at least a way beyond it for those of us who are victorious.

It's worth noting that a particularly high number of people who identify as Magicians, Mystics, Shamans, or anyone in this general realm of thought are unusual and the ideas many of us experiment with can blow up in our faces with a case of "I'm the next Jesus". It's an extremely complex situation, in some contexts the magician's egocentrism can be their greatest strength, as their light grows in size, others shrink in comparison, until the magician is left in darkness aside from the light of his own lamp. You need to be able to trust yourself and know yourself thoroughly at that point.

The topic of this thread is so complicated and it deserves to be explored, it's just so frustrating how childish it's been so far, because objectively as human beings, our egos are an untamed beast that we need to tame, and a significant amount of magic is dedicated to that very achievement.

I sent a report to the moderators: "This participant constantly triggers other forum members and tries to humiliate them. His opinion is treated as dogma, and no other view is allowed. This is his style of behavior in all threads and discussions." Let the moderators handle it.

 

[IllusiveOwl]

Tell me, besides your opinion, do other opinions even exist???

Sure they do, wading through them to find good ones is like sifting through coal to find diamonds. Too many children have access to the internet, and all of them like to have opinions.

I sent a report to the moderators:

 

[Yazata]

I sent a report to the moderators:

And after reading the post I rejected the report because I don't really see anything wrong with this particular one.

 

[Horologer]

And after reading the post I rejected the report because I don't really see anything wrong with this particular one.

On your forum, there are a few people who are allowed to do anything. You turn a blind eye to their behavior, off-topic posts, and mockery. Okay. I have nothing more to do here. I’ll just wish you all the best and leave this place.))

 

[Morell]

This actually turned into interesting debate. And the topic is great actually. Probably also pushed wrong buttons of some people. Me included, possibly.

For the original topic, I agree with @IllusiveOwl that egoism to certain extend is normal and healthy. From the logic, if you work on improving your magic, you improve yourself and you do it for yourself. Having dreams of being good magician or actually having any aspirations and dreams is also necessary part of healthy ego. There just has to be just enough of it. Not too much, but not too little either, as person without any goals tends to simply stand still or to be a puppet of other people.

To the triggering part - the list of achievments, it is competely fine to be proud of your success. How can be one humble while presenting themselves? Now that is something that I find difficoult to do. Reminds me of quote: I used to be egoist, but now I'm flawless.

After some thinking I think that egoism is quite a part of magic, especially if you define it as influencing the world according to your will. Is will not egoistic?

 

[HoldAll]

Come to think of it, both the "Know Thyself" maxim and the spiritual self-improvement concept are royal roads to egocentrism. It's hard to keep things in perspective if you think of your own ascension, self-deification, enlightnment or whatever all the time.

 

[IllusiveOwl]

Know Thyself

From my understanding, this maxim can be interpreted as an understanding of Oneness, a recognition that you and the rest of existence aren't separate entities. This can twist into the madness with the whole "I am God" revelation, which is as intense as narcissism could get. I suppose that's where a lot of the egoistic Black Magicians operate from.

Taken from a RHP perspective, this would lead to a kind of Avataric Krishna consciousness, where you are aware that you are the whole, and the whole is you, which is the opposite of egocentrism since there is no room for an individual ego to exist, not within you or others, but that all is the interconnected dance of India's net.

Thinking about this all the time can make you a bit self-centered though, I believe it's very important to ground this work in reality and integrate it with your day-to-day life, rather than getting lost in it and having it consume your life, separating you from reality.

After some thinking I think that egoism is quite a part of magic, especially if you define it as influencing the world according to your will. Is will not egoistic?

I agree, and think this has much to do with the LHP practice specifically. Our initial experience is inherently egocentric, given that we exist as a separated unit of consciousness, but that can transform with empathy for others and a love for existence, where the wellbeing of the world becomes your own wellbeing, and the feelings / suffering of others also becomes yours, felt directly through the faculty of empathy.

This is a really fascinating topic! I don't believe I'm right about everything, I would love to hear all your opinions on this stuff, I just think this topic is important and should be treated with clarity and maturity.

 

[Morell]

You know, in magic it almost feels that isntead of humblenesss we should speak about honesty. Being humble means wanting just a little or nothing. But being honest means seeing and speaking clearly. Feels to me that honesty might have way more value here, than humbleness, that feels to me to be rather religious quality of a subordinate. It was preffered for women (I assume, in Christianity, but in Islam too) to be humble, in other words to lessen themselves, which rather worked against them than for them.

 

[Beyond Everything]

Progamming your subconscious to be humble is a really brilliant idea for one's advancement...

That is sarcasm in case you dont get it.

OP should also read La Rochefoucauld's maxims

 

[frater_pan]

Beyond our own experiences of egocentric occultists, we have numerous examples from history. Crowley was a particularly glaring example. Yeats was probably another. Mathers was obviously not immune either. And those three are only one tiny snippet from the same time and temple. We can find innumerable examples.

 

[Lurker]

Beyond our own experiences of egocentric occultists, we have numerous examples from history. Crowley was a particularly glaring example. Yeats was probably another. Mathers was obviously not immune either. And those three are only one tiny snippet from the same time and temple. We can find innumerable examples.

Crowley was the first person that popped into my mind too, followed by the other members of the original Golden Dawn. They were all from the upper crust of British society, which wasn't know for producing shrinking violets.

There are only two kinds of practitioners: competent and incompetent.

Why do you think that? What makes you think there isn't a whole spectrum of magical abilities and competencies?

Humbleness and dedication make for a competent practitioner.

Dedication, definitely, but I don't think humbleness has anything to do with it. For example, some styles of magic tell you to command spirits with authority, and even threaten them, which doesn't sound very humble to me.

It's important that we do this work with integrity, humbleness, and honesty.

Integrity and honesty matter to me personally. However, I'll point out that integrity is defined with respect to a moral code. So whose moral code are we talking about? Do you get to define other people's moral codes for them? And again, humbleness is not relevant. Whether someone has a humble practice or a flamboyant practice (e.g. Crowley) or anywhere in between is irrelevant to their proficiency.

You seem to be projecting your personal values onto other magicians, and that isn't fair to them because your values may not be relevant to their values or their practice.

 

[aviaf]

Love the discussion here—funny how calling out ego often requires a parade of one’s own. Magic really does reflect what’s already inside us, doesn’t it? I'd write more, but everything I was going to say has already been said. Very entertaining.