Emotional Detachment in Spiritual Practice

[Magpie]

A very diverse group of people can be emotionally detached. I define it as a lack of spontaneous and/or adequate emotional reaction. A psychopath is detached, as well as a schizophrenic, as well as an advanced yogin/monk/your_word_for_a_pracitioner. What are the causes of emotional detachment in the 'good cases' ie spiritual achievement vs the 'bad' cases ie psychological deficiencies like in the case of psychopaths or schizophrenics.

 

[Accipeveldare]

A very diverse group of people can be emotionally detached. I define it as a lack of spontaneous and/or adequate emotional reaction. A psychopath is detached, as well as a schizophrenic, as well as an advanced yogin/monk/your_word_for_a_pracitioner. What are the causes of emotional detachment in the 'good cases' ie spiritual achievement vs the 'bad' cases ie psychological deficiencies like in the case of psychopaths or schizophrenics.

My advice on this topic would be not to let yourself get emotionally detached as this can make it unclear what you want out of your practice. (Unless your whole practice is based on attempting to get detached) When one is detached from their emotions it is difficult to ascertain what they would like to get out of said practice.

 

[Ziran]

What are the causes of emotional detachment in the 'good cases' ie spiritual achievement?

It's a great question. I cannot claim to have anything approaching a complete answer, but, here is my feedback. Hopefully others will reply as well.

I am aware of two different techniques which are employed to produce detachment in general, not only emotions. One is a philosophical method, the other is experiential, a consequence of meditative practice. The philosophical approach is cognitive. Essentially there are a series of philosophical models of mind and cognition which aim to persuade the aspirant of an inherent interdependent/impermanent/non-existence of anything other than "awareness-of-now". The other technique is a practice, where the aspirant is little by little taught to detach through a combination of sensory deprivation, visualization, breathing techniques, etc. The aspirant follows the instructions in the presence of their teacher who is guiding them. There will be a point during the practice, if the teacher is good, and the student is patient, sooner or later, the mind skips-a-beat, for lack of better words. The experience is supposed to be the quintessential version of "bliss". After this initial break-through, the aspirant , naturally, practices more and more.

Best wishes,

Post automatically merged: Yesterday at 7:43 PM

What are the causes of emotional detachment in the 'bad' cases ie psychological deficiencies like in the case of psychopaths or schizophrenics?

The disclaimer above applies. Excluding neurochemical malfunction, head injury, etc...

In general, in my experience, the bad cases of emotional detachment are a consequence of unresolved ongoing inner conflict. The most common root cause is childhood trauma. This produces debilitating "turbulence", for lack of a better word, in the psyche. The mind is working very hard, coping with this, trying to make sense of, resolve, and most important, prevent the inner conflict from occurring again. Or more often, it is not one conflict. It is a web of inter-connected self-reinforcing conflicts which resonate with each other in a feedback loop. The web of conflict, in these cases, takes on a, sort of, "life of its own". Hence, it is often referred to metaphorically as "inner-demons".

As time goes on the mind becomes exhausted from the ricochet of conflicting thoughts, feelings, desires. Most often the mind settles into a depressed state. This is the most straight-forward presentation of the "bad" case of emotional detachment. However, avoidance is also a common coping mechanism which will produce a negative version of emotional detachment. The mind will crave distraction from being reminded of its inner, seemingly, unreconcilable arguments it is having with itself. Drug and alcohol abuse are common. But also the individual might instead immerse themself in their work, hobbies, politics, anything which keeps the mind occupied and the heart passionately engaged. These become obsessions, and their relationships with friends and family suffer. The individual may deep down love his family and friends, but, they will fight, and fight hard to avoid making emotive connections, because it's too close, there's a slippery slope, with a hungry inner demon waiting at the bottom.

Post automatically merged: Yesterday at 7:53 PM

What are the causes of emotional detachment in the 'good cases' ie spiritual achievement vs the 'bad' cases ie psychological deficiencies like in the case of psychopaths or schizophrenics.

" ... VS ... "

In contrast, the underlying mechanism of the first two beneficial "blissful" versions of detachment rests on energetic acceptance and inclusion. I can elaborate if there is interest, The unhealthy, ghastly, version of emotional detachment is avoidant, or the result of emotional exhaustion.

So, it's acceptance VS avoidant, or, inclusion VS exclusion.

 

[Magpie]

It's a great question. I cannot claim to have anything approaching a complete answer, but, here is my feedback. Hopefully others will reply as well.

This sounds very much like Buddhist anatta, except the awareness of now is not the final step.

What you are saying in the second part makes me even more curious as to what an emotion is. Here, it sounds like it was a substance, that must be metabolized by the body one way or another and if it is not, it lingers and potentially causes unwanted effects. Is that really the case? Or are emotions more like kaleidoscopic pictures, that come and go and never truly penetrate, unless you allow it?

I really do not know. A few years ago I would take your answer full on, but nowadays, I cannot. I can hardly even see emotions as something desirable. You can react well to danger without fear. You can plan without anxiety. You can treat others well without love. You can defend without anger. Following emotions seem to take you on a rollercoaster. You cannot control those kaleidoscopic up-and-downs. Unless you restrain yourself, but if you do that, why not completely disable it?

I posted about it here, because I wonder, if emotions are needed for magical practice. Or if a concentration and its intensity suffices. Also, how they are related to the 7 planets, angels, chakras, spheres etc. I only recently learned the concept of emotions living through you, rather then in you and it really seems right. Of course I read it from a book on esotericism, hence, again, a post here.

I am interested in the differences, so please elaborate. Just to recap, you are saying that the "good" detachment is when you take those emotions head on and absorb their energies (and they hence lose their character, becoming coagulated with you), while "bad" detachment is when those energies stay within and you are just running away from them, so they constitute impurities within you, retaining their character and making your personality fragmented (hence at least linguistic link to schizophrenia?).

It is hard to write about those things impersonally and pointless to hide that it relates to the myself. I did not train to become detached. You can say it was a cognitive-philosophical attitude change or method. I did pay for it with depression, but I have been fine for a long time now (much, much longer than ever in my life) and remain detached and stable, even more so than in the past, even when faced with traumatic (real, no hyperboles), deeply personal experiences. I am questioning if it is truly more freedom, or if those 'demons' just hide much better. How would one know?

 

[Ziran]

What you are saying in the second part makes me even more curious as to what an emotion is. Here, it sounds like it was a substance, that must be metabolized by the body one way or another and if it is not, it lingers and potentially causes unwanted effects. Is that really the case? Or are emotions more like kaleidoscopic pictures, that come and go and never truly penetrate, unless you allow it?

I do not use a substance model for emotions. I consider emotions and intellect to be immaterial ( spiritual ) qualities of each individual soul. However, it is impossible to discuss immaterial concepts without an analogy or metaphor of some material phenomena. I sometimes use metabolism and digestion metaphors, but, I prefer to use words like "process" or "assimilate".

are emotions more like kaleidoscopic pictures, that come and go and never truly penetrate, unless you allow it?

I put emotions in the category of "sensations". They do not penetrate, they are super-imposed. Like tinted glasses.

I really do not know. A few years ago I would take your answer full on, but nowadays, I cannot. I can hardly even see emotions as something desirable. You can react well to danger without fear. You can plan without anxiety. You can treat others well without love. You can defend without anger. Following emotions seem to take you on a rollercoaster. You cannot control those kaleidoscopic up-and-downs. Unless you restrain yourself, but if you do that, why not completely disable it?

It's OK. I hope it doesn't sound like I'm trying to convince you otherwise. ( Please correct me if I'm wrong? The question at the end is rhetorical? )

I posted about it here, because I wonder, if emotions are needed for magical practice. Or if a concentration and its intensity suffices. Also, how they are related to the 7 planets, angels, chakras, spheres etc. I only recently learned the concept of emotions living through you, rather then in you and it really seems right. Of course I read it from a book on esotericism, hence, again, a post here.

Emotions are not necessary for magic.

I am interested in the differences, so please elaborate.

Sure

Just to recap, you are saying that the "good" detachment is when you take those emotions head on and absorb their energies (and they hence lose their character, becoming coagulated with you),

One form of good emotional detachment, that I am aware of, is a realization of inherent connectedness and impermanence in each and everything which is perceived. Then, the individual chooses, moment to moment to disregard the past, and disregard the future because the sensation of detachment is rewarding. With practice, the individual maintains this state automatically without conscious thought or intention.

In the present moment, emotions arise, but the individual is not attached to them. The emotion, like all other sensations, is inherently connected to everything and also impermanent. When they arise, they are observed, lacking any judgements.

"bad" detachment is when those energies stay within and you are just running away from them, so they constitute impurities within you, retaining their character and making your personality fragmented (hence at least linguistic link to schizophrenia?).

Bad emotional detachment is a consequence of avoidance ( or exhaustion ).

In the "good" form, the individual is neutral, apathetic. The emotion is observed. In the bad form, the individual is opposed to the emotions. It's an aversion.

In the "bad" form, I think of aversion like a computer program that is always running in the background of the individual's mind sapping their intellectual resources.

In the "good" version, the individual has no aversions ( or affinities ).

The splitting you are referring to is a consequence of the "turbulence". The turbulence comes from the trauma ( most often ). If the trauma is significant, ongoing, the mind adapts often in ways which are harmful to itself. But, the mind also tends to become highly flexible and resilient. This, too, comes with benefits and liabilities.

It is hard to write about those things impersonally and pointless to hide that it relates to the myself.

You're welcome to send me a private message if you would like to continue the conversation in private.

I will say, though, in my experience the best healers, are the ones who learn how to heal themself. The harmful experiences have value when they are shared for the purpose of helping others who are going through it too.

I did not train to become detached. You can say it was a cognitive-philosophical attitude change or method. I did pay for it with depression, but I have been fine for a long time now (much, much longer than ever in my life) and remain detached and stable, even more so than in the past, even when faced with traumatic (real, no hyperboles), deeply personal experiences.

yes, understood

I am questioning if it is truly more freedom, or if those 'demons' just hide much better. How would one know?

Volatility.

The emotions become bottled-up. The individual's sense of self accommodates and adapts. They become flexible and resilient. As negative experiences occur, the individual does not react directly, but, their psyche inflates, like a balloon. Then, something will happen, and POP. The individual has a sort of melt-down, emotional outburst, or some other sudden, dramatic, exaggerated behaviors.

Another model I like is "buckets" of tolerance. If the demons are hiding, the individual will have only so much tolerance for phenomena which arouses their inner-demons. Every-time the individual encounters a triggering event, it goes into the appropriate bucket of tolerance. Once that bucket is full, there is sort of explosive event where the entire bucket of frustration is poured out on whomever is present at the time.

This is where the metabolism model is often employed. In theory, if the individual has good coping skills they are able to process the emotions and empty the "buckets" before they reach a tipping point. This cuts the cycle of volatility.

I prefer the balloon analogy, because most, if they are struggling, can feel the pressure building even if the metaphorical balloon doesn't POP.

 

[beardedeldridge]

Don’t try to make yourself mentally ill. There is no case where that does anything for you (physically/spiritually/in any other way).

What you should be trying to do is lessen the hold the physical/emotional has on how you see the world/magic/yourself. For a lot of reasons. The ability to greatly decrease the “emotional” attachment (your solidified/entrenched thoughts on a situation/condition/whatever) is very helpful when you’re trying to change/achieve something. It’s essentially temporarily removing part of the inertia/resistance that exists to that change. Remove some of the large rocks out of your path before you try to move that cart down to the road.

-Eld

 

[Magpie]

In the "bad" form, I think of aversion like a computer program that is always running in the background of the individual's mind sapping their intellectual resources.

How can one detect it? How do you know you are observing without judgement and not just pushing them into the background?

So your bucket model is essentially a leaky bucket model, where emotions pour in and they leak (being metabolized, or coped etc) and as long as the emotions do not rush in very fast and with great intensity, the bucket will not overflow from the top. In that theory, one can go on for years or forever without any breakdown.

If emotions are like sensations, why would they even accumulate? Pain or hunger or bright light are felt and they cease once their cause passes. Why would emotions leave stains? Unless the person, under the influence of emotions, changes themselves...

I am challenging you on this to try to find out the difference between 'good' and 'bad' detachments. I am not trying to convince anybody - it is a completely open discussion. I don't have a strong opinion on these things - that's why I came here in the first place.

Don’t try to make yourself mentally ill. There is no case where that does anything for you (physically/spiritually/in any other way).

What you should be trying to do is lessen the hold the physical/emotional has on how you see the world/magic/yourself. For a lot of reasons. The ability to greatly decrease the “emotional” attachment (your solidified/entrenched thoughts on a situation/condition/whatever) is very helpful when you’re trying to change/achieve something. It’s essentially temporarily removing part of the inertia/resistance that exists to that change. Remove some of the large rocks out of your path before you try to move that cart down to the road.

-Eld

I wonder what could lead you to think I would want to make myself mentally ill. Don't worry, I don't want to do that. If emotions form those boulders on one's path, why would you remove them as a one-off, rather than permanently? Are you of opinion that emotions matter in magic? Or at least spontaneous emotions.

 

[beardedeldridge]

How can one detect it? How do you know you are observing without judgement and not just pushing them into the background?

So your bucket model is essentially a leaky bucket model, where emotions pour in and they leak (being metabolized, or coped etc) and as long as the emotions do not rush in very fast and with great intensity, the bucket will not overflow from the top. In that theory, one can go on for years or forever without any breakdown.

If emotions are like sensations, why would they even accumulate? Pain or hunger or bright light are felt and they cease once their cause passes. Why would emotions leave stains? Unless the person, under the influence of emotions, changes themselves...

I am challenging you on this to try to find out the difference between 'good' and 'bad' detachments. I am not trying to convince anybody - it is a completely open discussion. I don't have a strong opinion on these things - that's why I came here in the first place.


I wonder what could lead you to think I would want to make myself mentally ill. Don't worry, I don't want to do that. If emotions form those boulders on one's path, why would you remove them as a one-off, rather than permanently? Are you of opinion that emotions matter in magic? Or at least spontaneous emotions.

More of an impersonal “you” not you specifically. Making a point that being a psychopath/etc has no inherent value in a spiritual practice, not that you would make yourself one.

Now because:

• life without emotions is a terrible way to live
• but certain emotions at certain times can cause resistance to change
• emotions shape how we see ourselves and how we see ourselves can very much hinder our practices
• it’s very helpful to learn to temp step aside from them for a specific operation, specifically if the operation is to change something personal and important to us
• part of emotional maturity is learning to control them (but that’s another discussion)
• emotions are very important in magic

-Eld

 

[Ziran]

How can one detect it? How do you know you are observing without judgement and not just pushing them into the background?

The teacher is able to tell. The individual may not. It isn't something that I practice. There will certainly be questions I cannot answer in depth on this.

If emotions are like sensations, why would they even accumulate? Pain or hunger or bright light are felt and they cease once their cause passes. Why would emotions leave stains? Unless the person, under the influence of emotions, changes themselves...

It's somewhat counter intuitive.

Perception makes an impression on the psyche, an impression like a piece of sheet metal being stamped in a factory. The emotions, in total, as a collective, exist in the form of a spectrum. I imagine them as a cloud, or a haze. Specific emotions emerge, take shape, from this amorphous general lexicon, collecting in greater "density" into the impressions which are being made in the psyche as observations are being made.

Normally, the individual experiences life, perceptions are observed. These make an impression on the psyche. Emotions are super-imposed over the impression. New perceptions are observed, the prior impressions are replaced by the new ones. The emotional spectrum adjusts, collecting into the forms the impressions make, remaining only so long as the event itself. Perhaps for a short while after, or, when it is recalled.

However.

Life experiences which are deeply significant to the individual, for good or bad, make deep, sharp impressions. Instead of sheet metal fabrication, imagine an engraving. The more significant events dig deep troughs and valleys into the individual's soul. Nothing can erase it. The emotions are naturally inclined towards these deep impressions.

The distinction I'm trying to make is that the emotions themself are not "sticky" in the model I'm using. The strong reaction of the emotions, in my view, is a natural consequence of the life experiences which are making impressions on the individual's psyche.

So your bucket model is essentially a leaky bucket model, where emotions pour in and they leak (being metabolized, or coped etc) and as long as the emotions do not rush in very fast and with great intensity, the bucket will not overflow from the top. In that theory, one can go on for years or forever without any breakdown.

For most people, they never notice the bucket. Not because it's leaky, but instead because the events in their day to day lives do not produce strong impressions where strong emotions are gathering. Annoyances, irritations, are just "a drop in the bucket" which simply evaporates.

For those who have been traumatized, the trauma is always hovering in the background. The impression from the trauma is carved deep. Every perception is influenced to a degree by the presence of this sort of engraving. Because of this, the individual's "bucket" is constantly being filled, and it only takes a tiny bit from external experiences to reach the tipping point.

 

[Magpie]

More of an impersonal “you” not you specifically. Making a point that being a psychopath/etc has no inherent value in a spiritual practice, not that you would make yourself one.

OK, fair, same as Ziran said - 'bad' causes of detachment are not good for spiritual practice. Whether unemotional life is good or bad is another discussion. How are emotions important in magic? Genuine question. That is one of the key questions here. Some esoteric schools focus on detachment, like tantrism, but they also practice magic. Is it all about being able to arose emotions at will?

The teacher is able to tell. The individual may not. It isn't something that I practice. There will certainly be questions I cannot answer in depth on this.

I see. So following that metaphor, a Buddhist practitioner should have chromium plating or be a sheet of titanium, so that all that stamping would leave no trace on him. Really difficult subject, especially when it comes to evaluating ones state of mind... There seems to be a disagreement between you to as to whether emotions are important in magic.