[Opinion] Loving god because he's perfect?? (Rufus Opus/hermetecism)

[pixel_fortune]

Just heard Rufus Opus on Glitch Bottle briefly running through Hermetic cosmology and talking about man seeing god and loving him because he's perfect, and then earth seeing the face of man (made in God's image) and falling in love with him for the same reason

And it just kinda struck me: that's not why I love the people I love. There's not some objective measure of perfection, and the more perfect you are, the more I love you

In fact, the people I tend to love the most are quite "spiky" (more flaws than average and more interesting than average. A graph of their strengths and weakness would not be a smooth curve, it would have lots of up and down spikes).

It's hard to imagine loving someone who never made a mistake, who never had to struggle to do the right thing.

I get that perfect means perfect (so like, this god would have complete compassion and understanding for people who've struggled with addiction, even though he's never struggled with addiction himself)

But as a trigger for loving someone, it just doesn't gel with me.

Honestly hermetecism has always seemed a little solipsistic to me (god loves humans because they are like god; the more something partakes of gods perfection, the more God loves it, the definition of "good" is, "whatever god is") but it just really hit me how far from my own experience of love that cosmology story is, but Rufus Opus at least seemed to think that was a baseline truism, that you'd automatically love what was perfect

 

[Vandheer]

You should ask this on the subreddit too, I wonder what Polyphanes and co. would say about this.

 

[Xenophon]

Just heard Rufus Opus on Glitch Bottle briefly running through Hermetic cosmology and talking about man seeing god and loving him because he's perfect, and then earth seeing the face of man (made in God's image) and falling in love with him for the same reason

And it just kinda struck me: that's not why I love the people I love. There's not some objective measure of perfection, and the more perfect you are, the more I love you

In fact, the people I tend to love the most are quite "spiky" (more flaws than average and more interesting than average. A graph of their strengths and weakness would not be a smooth curve, it would have lots of up and down spikes).

It's hard to imagine loving someone who never made a mistake, who never had to struggle to do the right thing.

I get that perfect means perfect (so like, this god would have complete compassion and understanding for people who've struggled with addiction, even though he's never struggled with addiction himself)

But as a trigger for loving someone, it just doesn't gel with me.

Honestly hermetecism has always seemed a little solipsistic to me (god loves humans because they are like god; the more something partakes of gods perfection, the more God loves it, the definition of "good" is, "whatever god is") but it just really hit me how far from my own experience of love that cosmology story is, but Rufus Opus at least seemed to think that was a baseline truism, that you'd automatically love what was perfect

Close enough to brilliant to get my vote. Ortega y Gasset says something similar in "Sobre el Amor." Talking about girl watching on the streetcar, he says Platonic ideals have nothing to do with beauty. He speaks rather of the "imminent ideal of each face."

 

[Xingtian]

This sounds like an echo of the part in the Poimandres where nature falls in love with man and man falls in love with his image reflected in the earth and they end up fusing… I think it’s hard to generalize too much about hermeticism because even between the classic texts there are ideas that seem to be at variance.

As much as I find Platonism and its many offshoots/ influencees fascinating I too am not on board with an absolute beauty, at least not one without irreducible contradictions and mutability. I can’t really go on a walk- through the woods or the city- and appreciate it from a Platonist perspective. Confucianism and Daoism have an appreciation for the odd in nature and you see this reflected in Chinese painting with its love of gnarled trees, weird rocks, etc.

 

[Vandheer]

I get that perfect means perfect (so like, this god would have complete compassion and understanding for people who've struggled with addiction, even though he's never struggled with addiction himself)

One of the reasons I couldn't fully accept tradiditonal Hermetic thought. Which is a shame because it really hit a lot of spots for me, and I have also an experience reading CH that changed me.

Second being the child problem. Why are we supposed to multiply if nothing good comes off of incarnating?

god loves humans because they are like god;

This also is hillariously ironic because evern God doesn't seem exempt from this, can't you just love me for who I am? Even God loves what he sees in me, jeez.

 

[Amur]

God the Creator is just a mirror image of what you truly are, so polish the mirror while alive and see what happens at the point of Death.

 

[pixel_fortune]

Confucianism and Daoism have an appreciation for the odd in nature and you see this reflected in Chinese painting with its love of gnarled trees, weird rocks, etc.

I'd only been thinking about human beauty but you're right about that too!

Post automatically merged: Feb 20, 2024

You should ask this on the subreddit too, I wonder what Polyphanes and co. would say about this.

Thanks, just posted

It was Polyphanes' post on the nature of good and evil in hermetics that most turned me off Hermetecism actually (in part just because it comes from a respected source - if Polyphanes is saying this is what hermetecism is, I believe him)

 

[stratamaster78]

I like Rufus and his book the Seven Spheres is an awesome method for working DSIC but I don't really share this take.

But then again I don't see 'God' as this completely external entity anymore or Good and Evil being a purely human condition.

I do see aspects of this type of blind love and adoration in humans.

Most of the time Humans Love their Children blindly and see them initially as perfect and partly because they are made in their image. So that's kind of a mirror of what Rufus is saying.

But for me (and I said this elsewhere) God is an Infinite Consciousness that became the Physical and is in the Process of experiencing itself through every lens/filter and viewpoint possible as every single living thing.

It's not Perfect or Imperfect... It just IS.

So it Loves itself and hates itself and everything in between.

It's the Hero, the Villain, The Victor, The Victim....everything and everyone.

 

[pixel_fortune]

But for me (and I said this elsewhere) God is an Infinite Consciousness that became the Physical and is in the Process of experiencing itself through every lens/filter and viewpoint possible as every single living thing.

So would you say, re: my original post, that God HAS struggled with addiction / made mistakes / fucked up / etc ? (because people have and it is everything, including those people)?

 

[Vandheer]

But for me (and I said this elsewhere) God is an Infinite Consciousness that became the Physical and is in the Process of experiencing itself through every lens/filter and viewpoint possible as every single living thing.

This is my final thought on the subject too.

Its a bittersweet conclusion; more than most of religions and thought pamper you in a way you are special but my conclusion is I would matter only as much as the dirt on the ground. Good news was that I was free to experiment without fear of a hell or whatever.

 

[stratamaster78]

@pixel_fortune Exactly.

God has done and experienced everything Good and Evil or Good and Bad because he is everyone who has ever existed and who ever will exist.

In my understanding anyway.

And yes @Vandheer it’s Sobering and for me sometimes depressing and sometimes a relief.

Yeah special kind of goes out the window.

No one is special because everyone is the same in the end.

It’s also Grounding.

How can I or anyone develop an inflated God Complex when everyone is God…lol

 

[pixel_fortune]

Will share the response from Reddit because it's interesting:

r/Hermeticism

u/sigismundo_celine (of Way of Hermes]

The term "perfect" is a difficult one. It does not mean esthetically perfect or even perfect (morally) good.

Also, how can we see God? How can we see God's perfection?

That is why it is often interpreted that God is in love with Himself. He sees Himself in creation. Man is the "instrument" by which God sees Himself and can love Himself. As creation is being created by the Perfect Good, we can see (through His eyes) that it is perfect and love it. Therefore, if you love someone or something, with all their flaws and imperfections, it is really God who loves His creation, and creation does not need to be perfect (for us) to be loved (by Him).

Here is an article about divine love that you might find interesting:

Please, Log in or Register to view URLs content!

 

[stratamaster78]

I think the phrase ‘God Created’ is where all misunderstanding began and has been perpetuated throughout history.

It has always made it seem that God took an external action to ‘Create’ the way an Artist creates an external piece of Art.

God didn’t externally create… He externally became.

He became the Art to experience itself in all the ways it can be experienced.

But it’s also infinite and simultaneously exists inside and outside of time and space.

It observes and is observed.

 

[Bandaboy]

Just heard Rufus Opus on Glitch Bottle briefly running through Hermetic cosmology and talking about man seeing god and loving him because he's perfect, and then earth seeing the face of man (made in God's image) and falling in love with him for the same reason

And it just kinda struck me: that's not why I love the people I love. There's not some objective measure of perfection, and the more perfect you are, the more I love you

In fact, the people I tend to love the most are quite "spiky" (more flaws than average and more interesting than average. A graph of their strengths and weakness would not be a smooth curve, it would have lots of up and down spikes).

It's hard to imagine loving someone who never made a mistake, who never had to struggle to do the right thing.

I get that perfect means perfect (so like, this god would have complete compassion and understanding for people who've struggled with addiction, even though he's never struggled with addiction himself)

But as a trigger for loving someone, it just doesn't gel with me.

Honestly hermetecism has always seemed a little solipsistic to me (god loves humans because they are like god; the more something partakes of gods perfection, the more God loves it, the definition of "good" is, "whatever god is") but it just really hit me how far from my own experience of love that cosmology story is, but Rufus Opus at least seemed to think that was a baseline truism, that you'd automatically love what was perfect

Have you had an experience with God? Of so how was it?

 

[pixel_fortune]

Have you had an experience with God? Of so how was it?

Annoying answer: I think all matter is made out of god, so by definition, yes

More helpful: I've had numinous experiences, where I was aware of the presence of divinity suffusing everything. It feels beautiful and meaningful but not a meaning I can translate into regular everyday thinking. I haven't experienced anything like "meeting" god the way you might meet a human and have a chat to them

 

[Konsciencia]

I don't know what it is, but I have a very strong profound Connection with God, The Universe.

 

[Amur]

Something interesting about the Tetractys, YHVH and God is that it originates from the 3rd one which has 3 dots, + Spirit -, which is US. Then it becomes +-/+- which is YHVH or the elements or the universe, which is also the name of God.