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Mistaking the Rope for a Snake (hot takes?)

Voidking

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Really skeptical of it t be honest. The idea that our struggles and suffering are mere 'delusions' and that we really 'enjoy' it but your pain system is meant for you to survive and probably without it most species wouldn't exist.

That's why suicide is looked down upon because it's an 'end' to your suffering in this life. Even if it were true it wouldn't make the God of the Universe just or fair just powerful.
Physical suffering is inevitable, psychological suffering is unecessary, you are psychologically in pain because your resist the experience and your ego keeps fighting and does not want to surrender, if you're miserable and depressed because your wife left you, that's self-generated suffering and that's quite stupid.

When a lion attacks you, you should be afraid and run away, but when your "imagination" attacks you, that's a whole another story, your imagination is your social conditioning. What the eastern philosophies advocate is that psychological suffering is an illusion, not the physical one.
 

HocusPocus

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Physical suffering is inevitable, psychological suffering is unecessary, you are psychologically in pain because your resist the experience and your ego keeps fighting and does not want to surrender, if you're miserable and depressed because your wife left you, that's self-generated suffering and that's quite stupid.

When a lion attacks you, you should be afraid and run away, but when your "imagination" attacks you, that's a whole another story, your imagination is your social conditioning. What the eastern philosophies advocate is that psychological suffering is an illusion, not the physical one.
This is a common rhetoric that's being espoused which can be pretty quickly resolved if you were to find yourself suffering from schizophrenia or any other sort of mental illness.

You attempted to shift blame for someone's personal choice to feel this way when it's in fact your body that illicit responses to scenarios. The two examples you mentioned are bodily instinct that are tied to our survival. One is working as it should, you lost someone you loved and it makes you feel lesser. The other one your brain has malfunctioned and caused you to become delusional.

Further more, Eastern Philosophy argues that the root of physical suffering is mental suffering and somehow you can overcome physical suffering by overcoming mental suffering which I just explained is quite frankly an uninformed and ignorant position.
 

Voidking

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This is a common rhetoric that's being espoused which can be pretty quickly resolved if you were to find yourself suffering from schizophrenia or any other sort of mental illness.

You attempted to shift blame for someone's personal choice to feel this way when it's in fact your body that illicit responses to scenarios. The two examples you mentioned are bodily instinct that are tied to our survival. One is working as it should, you lost someone you loved and it makes you feel lesser. The other one your brain has malfunctioned and caused you to become delusional.

Further more, Eastern Philosophy argues that the root of physical suffering is mental suffering and somehow you can overcome physical suffering by overcoming mental suffering which I just explained is quite frankly an uninformed and ignorant position.
Schizophrenia and similar illnesses are always an exception. As for Neuroticism and anxious behaviors, it is the result of mental conditioning again, "poor little me".

Survival instincts are buried deep within our animal brain, self-preservation is a natural and fundamental aspect of human behavior that is deeply ingrained in our biology. Mental conditioning and habitual behaviours are LEARNED, if your body is programmed to illicit a specific response, it's because you have programmed it to do so, if you react angrily, you have programmed yourself to be angry, likewise for love and sorrow. You are merely justifying your illusory suffering. Google "Neuroplasticity".

Please provide your reasoning/evidence to your last point.
 

Xenophon

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Really skeptical of it t be honest. The idea that our struggles and suffering are mere 'delusions' and that we really 'enjoy' it but your pain system is meant for you to survive and probably without it most species wouldn't exist.

That's why suicide is looked down upon because it's an 'end' to your suffering in this life. Even if it were true it wouldn't make the God of the Universe just or fair just powerful.
Herman Wouk (no grand philosopher, I know) has one of his characters hold forth on the Book of Job saying God's "answer" to Job amounts to admitting Job is right: "Ha Shem" is a bully in tetragrammaton tights. (OK, that last was my rephrasing Wouk.)
 

IllusiveOwl

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The root of physical suffering is mental suffering and somehow you can overcome physical suffering by overcoming mental suffering which I just explained is quite frankly an uninformed and ignorant position.
Perhaps you should Google "Monk who self-imolated in protest of the Vietnam War" and take a cold shower.
 

HocusPocus

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Perhaps you should Google "Monk who self-imolated in protest of the Vietnam War" and take a cold shower.
Yeah I know about him, he came from my country.

I tried meditation didn't work for me can confirm I am still suffering, doesn't work for alot of people either. You get afew that seems like they don't suffer.
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Herman Wouk (no grand philosopher, I know) has one of his characters hold forth on the Book of Job saying God's "answer" to Job amounts to admitting Job is right: "Ha Shem" is a bully in tetragrammaton tights. (OK, that last was my rephrasing Wouk.)

That would be quite horrific in my opinion to have to deal with basically a man-child God but if it then I guess we'll just have to roll with it. Although I'd prefer he let us all go after our deaths.
 

IllusiveOwl

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You get afew that seems like they don't suffer.
It comes fron years of practice and persistence... it isn't something you try out and see if it works or not, that's childish.

I will remind you that this thread is for people versed in this line of thinking and for thoughtful exploration of the philosophy, not for opinionated, unlearned accusations at its validity and cheep skepticism.
 

HocusPocus

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Schizophrenia and similar illnesses are always an exception. As for Neuroticism and anxious behaviors, it is the result of mental conditioning again, "poor little me".

Survival instincts are buried deep within our animal brain, self-preservation is a natural and fundamental aspect of human behavior that is deeply ingrained in our biology. Mental conditioning and habitual behaviours are LEARNED, if your body is programmed to illicit a specific response, it's because you have programmed it to do so, if you react angrily, you have programmed yourself to be angry, likewise for love and sorrow. You are merely justifying your illusory suffering. Google "Neuroplasticity".

Please provide your reasoning/evidence to your last point.
Any learned/conditoned responses are just trainings of those natural instincts. So they are natural, it's just your body has over-used certain signal and stimuli. I never said they can't change either, my point is that they are just likely changed in response to conflict or drama which isn't exactly un-natural they are doing their job. Also why would Schizophrenia and similar illnesses be an exception? I am guessing you are saying they are caused by innate physical deformities in the brain, i.e congenital vs acquired. But neuroticism can also be caused by an innate physical brain structure.

Now as for your condescending 'poor little me' comment. I am assuming you're saying most of these behaviors can be fixed and that the natural state of man is some how able to move on and tolerate certain stressful events. Which I can agree with partially, some people's behaviors become unecessary because THEIR LIFE CONDITIONS CHANGED and said stressor no longer exists. Usually when someone becomes stressed or depressed long term it means THERES A NEED NOT BEING MET.

Your wife leaving you and abandoning you - You can't get another partner, you are unable to get sex and you crave for it.

Now if you find another partner and she's good to you, sure that is the case of an instinct being problematic. They can be but for most people long term depression and sadness comes from their situation extending long term and them being unable to cope with it.

Much like how if someone lives in a dangerous stressful environment and they can't remove themselves they learn to become angry and wary all the time or straight up sociopathic.


Sure here's your list of sources, you can search them up for verification :

Guru Rinpoche ( Founder of Tibetan Buddhism) :

" "The mind is the creator of everything. You should therefore guide it to create only joy."|


Mundaka Upanishad:
"When a wise man has realized that the self is the source of mind, then he has reached the end of all sorrow."

Diamond Sutra :
"All conditioned phenomena are like a dream, an illusion, a bubble, a shadow, like dew or a flash of lightning; thus we shall perceive them."




If you need more let me know I just provided 3 from three of the biggest non-dualist tradition.
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It comes fron years of practice and persistence... it isn't something you try out and see if it works or not, that's childish.

I will remind you that this thread is for people versed in this line of thinking and for thoughtful exploration of the philosophy, not for opinionated, unlearned accusations at its validity and cheep skepticism.

I've meditated for like 2 hours straight almost everyday for 1.5 year now, because it's part of my martial arts practice. I am pretty sure I meditate more than you and that's not me bragging.

I don't know what feelings in you I hurt but I can assure you regardless of that, I did my research and put in the time probably more than you did.
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I've also come from a background of Buddhism and lived in a Buddhist country for my early life! So there's also that, I don't know of your background perhaps you know more but unless you're extensively involved in a Buddhist/Meditative tradition I highly doubt you're more qualified than me to speak on the matter or it's rather simple unless you've gotten rid of YOUR suffering you are probably as qualified to speak on the matter as much as I am.
 
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Xenophon

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It comes fron years of practice and persistence... it isn't something you try out and see if it works or not, that's childish.

I will remind you that this thread is for people versed in this line of thinking and for thoughtful exploration of the philosophy, not for opinionated, unlearned accusations at its validity and cheep skepticism.
In my experience, "cheap scepticism" is the hardest kind to refute. The single counterexample of the Vietnamese monk is cherry-picking. The claim that overcoming body with mind takes "years of practice" is better. But even here one could urge questions. E.g., can anyone master this after years of practice? What qualities conduce best to mastery? What kind of individual is driven to seek such mastery over so long a time? Buddhism itself hints that only a few have attained the kind of birth that affords the necessary preconditions to make realization possible. This scarcely makes Buddhism "wrong." It does hint at the exclusivist nature of progress. Like the Jesse James flick with Brad Pitt a few years back. Frank James tells the aspiring outlaw Bob Ford, "Son, you ain't got the ingredients."
 

IllusiveOwl

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The exclusivist nature of progress.
It's less of a lack of ingredients and more a refusal to put down one's vices. It has nothing to do with genetics or circumstance, its about getting a grip. Ignorance, bestial stupidity, pride, and more than anything comfort are the only things keeping people from overcoming the trivialities of suffering.

can anyone master this after years of practice?
Yes, the core of Buddhist teachings is that anyone can become Buddha (one who is awake).

What qualities conduce best to mastery?
One who does not want to let external stimuli change or control them. Someone who wants to be disciplined and more than some pastoral, controllable beast.
What kind of individual is driven to seek such mastery over so long a time?
One who realizes the futility of Samsara and is not swayed by delusions of possession and the illusion of acquisition.
The kind of birth that affords the necessary preconditions
Anyone of any caste and birth can attain Buddha-hood. Nobody has any excuses outside of laziness and a desire to indulge.
 

Xenophon

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That's what they teach. I'd say the Hindu notion seems more likely. Some folks are still at the stage of the pig being chased around the stupa by a dog.

Though I have to thank you. I have been meaning to get back to regular sitting meditation. This has spurred me to do it. As soon as i hit "Post Reply."
 

HocusPocus

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That's what they teach. I'd say the Hindu notion seems more likely. Some folks are still at the stage of the pig being chased around the stupa by a dog.

Though I have to thank you. I have been meaning to get back to regular sitting meditation. This has spurred me to do it. As soon as i hit "Post Reply."

The Hindus and the Buddhist more or less agree, and alot of the external teachings are just that external to rope people into practicing the Dharma. Even amongst tiers of Bodhisattvas there are several and they reincarnate over and over.
 
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