Petition to make a "No-Hand Path, Path-working and Matter Manipulation" subsection

[Khoren_]

Now I have nothing against the general idea of "Angel Contact" and "Demon Worship", but I think the whole "Left vs Right" and "Black vs White" magic is a little,,, leaving something to be desired.

As someone with less... traditional views on magic, I find myself wondering at what point do I put x question into which subsection, but it's too specific for the "general" subsection or the "occult Q&A". So Can we get a third section???

 

[SkullTraill]

1. What would be the description of the section? Give me a fleshed out, non-exclusionary/circular definition of this new section.
2. What is the topic of the thread that did not fit anywhere else? Give an example.

 

[Khoren_]

1) The description would be something along the lines of
"All about Path-working, Map-Making, and general tomfoolery, this is for those topics that may not specifically stick to one side or the other of the continuum, or even exist outside of it."

2) So, as it is more than just a general Q&A type beat, but also isn't necessarily something that would be a "general" discussion, one of the things that I do in my practice is what I call "map-making", or basically "divining" paths on which one's spirit can take and manipulating the flows of energy in the general area towards a general "path-working" kind of magic. Often, a lot of people do divination for "do they like me" or "will I get that job" or even lesser things like "is there going to be $1000 falling into my lap", but for me, the future is a flux of experiences that can exist simultaneously but one must only select the flow in which the spirit/self is guided. Chaos magic in general has always seemed to be outside the "left/right" dichotomy since a lot of it isn't simple "banishment" or "summoning" or even "talismanic practice" to bring about certain things. For me, I can definitely just slap that into the tutorial subsection, but I often feel that there would be more than just the one topic (I can probably craft a dozen based on my own pathworking) and thus could warrant its own subsection.

I just typed this out real quick, but I can be more elaborative in a few when I get back from dinner.

 

[Xenophon]

It strikes me that the "General Occult" section hath as many rooms as our Father's mansion, no?

 

[Jackson]

Sound of one hand clapping.

 

[Xenophon]

Sound of one hand clapping.

Or, "Look, Mom! No hands!" Actually I guess that could be the name. The LHP, the RHP, and the No Hands Path.

 

[Khoren_]

Or, "Look, Mom! No hands!" Actually I guess that could be the name. The LHP, the RHP, and the No Hands Path.

I figured it sounded better than being pretentious and calling it the ambidextrous path

 

[Xenophon]

I figured it sounded better than being pretentious and calling it the ambidextrous path

Actually Ambidexterous Path sounds sexily arcane and forbidding. "The Ambidexterous Path, a reverend and awful Way." One could go back to Jung's "Seven Sermons to the Dead" and change out all references to Abraxas to Ambidexter. Bingo: you have a tutelary deity and an authoritative text "authored" by Clement of Alexandria through Jung! The name hints at Dexter, the serial killer in the Jeff Lindsay novels. The "Ambi--" hints that one can still go either way (or both) on this path. Use the Janus-face for a sigil. An afternoon with AI and revising and you'll have an occult best-seller on your hands. You can blow this forum and set up as a You-Tube influencer on the arcane.

 

[Aeternus]

Now I have nothing against the general idea of "Angel Contact" and "Demon Worship", but I think the whole "Left vs Right" and "Black vs White" magic is a little,,, leaving something to be desired.

As someone with less... traditional views on magic, I find myself wondering at what point do I put x question into which subsection, but it's too specific for the "general" subsection or the "occult Q&A". So Can we get a third section???

One chooses Right Hand Path or Left Hand Path based on what they desire to achieve. That is why one chooses RHP in order to use Angels and the Sephirot to achieve a lot of things by using the power of Light, while others use the Demons and Qlipoth to achieve a lot of things and power by using Demons and the Powers of the Dark.

Though your idea is not bad, still, a question would linger and that is: what would someone do in an ambidextrous path? One essentially flows towards the Light or towards Darkness at some point in their practice, they cannot "infinitely" float in some kind of nothingness or chaotic environment.

Unless someone wants to completely syncretize a lot of things from the chaos canvas and create new and novel things.

 

[Xenophon]

One chooses Right Hand Path or Left Hand Path based on what they desire to achieve. That is why one chooses RHP in order to use Angels and the Sephirot to achieve a lot of things by using the power of Light, while others use the Demons and Qlipoth to achieve a lot of things and power by using Demons and the Powers of the Dark.

Though your idea is not bad, still, a question would linger and that is: what would someone do in an ambidextrous path? One essentially flows towards the Light or towards Darkness at some point in their practice, they cannot "infinitely" float in some kind of nothingness or chaotic environment.

Unless someone wants to completely syncretize a lot of things from the chaos canvas and create new and novel things.

Fence-sitting is an ancient and honored occupation. And open-mindedness is a vice that only now is being rooted-out by spastic impulsivity in either direction (vices born of reacting to the vice.) Really, one encounters people every day who wouldn't jerk a leg away from a hungry tiger (shark, zombie, etc.) without first fretting "What's he going to eat if I deny him?" Think of the path as a nebulous way station for the nebbish till they decide which way to turn. Its lack of results will hasten some assessment of aims, one hopes.

 

[Aeternus]

Fence-sitting is an ancient and honored occupation. And open-mindedness is a vice that only now is being rooted-out by spastic impulsivity in either direction (vices born of reacting to the vice.) Really, one encounters people every day who wouldn't jerk a leg away from a hungry tiger (shark, zombie, etc.) without first fretting "What's he going to eat if I deny him?" Think of the path as a nebulous way station for the nebbish till they decide which way to turn. Its lack of results will hasten some assessment of aims, one hopes.

Right you are @Xenophon ! The idea is that I kinda thought I saw something which can't be said to be considered as high-potential from the ambidextrous path, and that is: syncretizing or creating a lot of things using chaos plane.

It's true, fence-sitting has its ancient origins as being a honored occupation lol.

 

[Mars]

Now I have nothing against the general idea of "Angel Contact" and "Demon Worship", but I think the whole "Left vs Right" and "Black vs White" magic is a little,,, leaving something to be desired.

As someone with less... traditional views on magic, I find myself wondering at what point do I put x question into which subsection, but it's too specific for the "general" subsection or the "occult Q&A". So Can we get a third section???

Yeah agree. >Traditional, well traditional magic or whatever does not know of any path. Same as with the colours. .magic is just magic. Paracelsus himself said that the same spell used to harm is also used to cure and then went ahead and created antidotes out of poisons.

Left hand and right hand, wet and dry, bhakti or Karma Is just from where you draw your power form. Ultimately you should overcome this "Tat tvam asi". As you are neither of these two and both of these two.

In Hermeticism as well as Hinduism is also the direct path, further reinforcing that idea and going straight on a metaphysical plain.

 

[Khoren_]

I also want to point out that this is less about "the difference between curses and talismans" and more about "hey, there are definitely spells that don't aim to do one or the other" which is another reason I decided on No Hand Path versus Ambi Path.

I guess to be more clear on what my practice does, and it isn't "fence sitting":

My practice does not aim to generate wealth, or to get someone to fall in love with me. While I have done money spells in the past, magic for me has always been a path of self-cultivation, Truth Seeking, and gathering of general knowledge. When I cast my divinatory magic (whether it be tarot, runes, I Ching, gem stones, etc), I am seeking to determine the paths that are probable (not possible, there is a difference) and then using my magic to subtly push factors "out of my control" into my favor. My first spell I ever performed was one of future reading (not fortune telling, there's a subtle difference). While some may claim that divination is "RHP", I first learned that it was based on necromancy (literally communion with the dead), or divination (literally communion with the divine). Yes, there is the argument that it's not directly harming someone, but the mere fact that even historically divination was considered a "dark art" nullifies the idea of "white versus black" magic (which in itself is a derivation of necro/negromancy).

I may be losing the thread here, but I don't consider myself to be communing with demons or angels, or even performing specific "healing" or "cursing" rites, which leads me to wonder where I would sit on this dichotomy. Sure, it may be pretentious to be like "I'm neither left nor right handed!!" But sincerely, at some point there is going to be either a hard division on every spell, incantation, ceremony, or talisman, or the line just doesn't exist.

 

[Pyrokar]

Don't take the paradoxical philosophies as support, but let's not meander there

im not into the hard division either, however it's still there, and it wasn't made by "us"
we need classifications, tags, a familly tree to every single thing we can think of, so you can just say right hand
and we will generally know what's up with you.
why does it matter you are not "real" right hand if you are using primarily right hand techniques/philosophies?
or if a left hand user might have a healing ritual?
both sides can do the same thing as eachother - only difference is in the way they do it.

I first learned that it was based on necromancy (literally communion with the dead), or divination (literally communion with the divine). Yes, there is the argument that it's not directly harming someone, but the mere fact that even historically divination was considered a "dark art" nullifies the idea of "white versus black" magic (which in itself is a derivation of necro/negromancy).

like this, for example. It's irrelevant.

if you can't figure out a section, the general occult is literally made for that purpose. otherwise just lower the difficulty settings a little bit and pick the matching side.
-is better than a whole new section just for one dude, even if they are a prolific writer (minute of silence for wildchild).

 

[Khoren_]

why does it matter you are not "real" right hand if you are using primarily right hand techniques/philosophies?
or if a left hand user might have a healing ritual?

See, and this is where the distinction was fundamentally different when I was coming up. White magic meant like "healing, talismanic, etc", black magic was like "divination, evocation, etc", then you had Ceremonial, Ritual, and Folk magic distinctions, then Left and Right hand meant you either followed your own path, or own set down by tradition, respectively. Basically, exoteric versus esoteric. So for me to see White magic specifically denoted as RHP and Black magic denoted as LHP is a little jarring to be honest.

better than a whole new section just for one dude, even if they are a prolific writer

I wasn't trying to make one just for me, I swear, I just felt that if I had the feeling, there had to be more, so that's where the suggestions and subsequent discussion comes from.

 

[Yazata]

I have a habit of making every thing about myself (I am aware of that) but I'd describe me as "two-handed" and have for that exact reason created the two-handed-pentagram. A whole new section seems unnecessary if I'm honest because almost everything can be assigned to one of the other labels. Just because you (or I or anyone) doesn't consider yourself L or R doesn't mean the goals / rituals / techniques are.
When you are new to Magick you will often hear or read someone say "black and white magic doesn't exist and blabla"

When I think of the active members here I don't believe anyone of them is "true" LHP or RHP. But maybe I'm wrong

 

[HoldAll]

To my mind, anything that would have given the average old-school white-lighter the vapours one hundred years ago or so is LHP, the rest is RHP by default, even if it's unconventional, the product of genuine lateral thinking, totally innovative or even revolutionary. If a topic is off-beat but doesn't carry that distinct 'special interest' LHP flavour, it goes in the RHP section, I'd say, it's as simple as that. You don't have to be a card-carrying RHPer to post in that sub-forum, and hardly anybody will be offended if you e.g. propose to turn the Tree of Life upside down and paint it pink (ok, I may be mistaken there ). The practical purpose of the RHP/LHP division is keeping thematic subjects apart, not adherents of opposing creeds.

 

[Aeternus]

To my mind, anything that would have given the average old-school white-lighter the vapours one hundred years ago or so is LHP, the rest is RHP by default, even if it's unconventional, the product of genuine lateral thinking, totally innovative or even revolutionary. If a topic is off-beat but doesn't carry that distinct 'special interest' LHP flavour, it goes in the RHP section, I'd say, it's as simple as that. You don't have to be a card-carrying RHPer to post in that sub-forum, and hardly anybody will be offended if you e.g. propose to turn the Tree of Life upside down and paint it pink (ok, I may be mistaken there ). The practical purpose of the RHP/LHP division is keeping thematic subjects apart, not adherents of opposing creeds.

Indeed. Collaboration is the key, while keeping the thematic subjects apart so as to not create syncretism.

Also, lol "turning the Tree of Life upside down and paint it pink" .

 

[Khoren_]

so as to not create syncretism.

What if I wanted to create a curse that heals someone waggles eyebrows

propose to turn the Tree of Life upside down and paint it pink

Okay, but the Tree of Death already exists...

 

[Aeternus]

What if I wanted to create a curse that heals someone waggles eyebrows

Okay, but the Tree of Death already exists...

I was talking about the fact that there is generally not a good idea to mix things. But, as Paracelsus said; regardless of color, region and modus operandi, magic is magic. One magic formula that heals can also be used to render one sick and in counter-side, one can turn the poison into water or the waters into wine (alchemic and esoteric speaking ) and heal through some unconventional magical means.

As for what HoldAll said about the Tree of Life turned upside down and drawn as pink, it is with a double meaning.

While certainly we know how fruitful the aspects of the Tree of Life, the Tree of Death would not present to us in its Qlipoth / more hard energy. It can often trick you into seeing it as something that it isn't.

Zohar systems and Laurian Kaballah but mostly Zohar perfectly define the fact that the Qlipoth is realm to the most mind-tricking demonic spirits.