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Skinner’s Solomonic "Tech" – Is magic just old-school software?

omangello

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Just finished digging through Skinner’s PhD thesis on Solomonic 'technology' and honestly, it’s a total game-changer for how we look at grimoires. Instead of the usual mystical fluff, he treats the whole system like a literal operating manual—tracing the gear (wands, circles, inks) all the way back to the PGM.

It’s got me thinking: if magic is basically an evolving technology, why are so many people obsessed with keeping it exactly like it was in the 1500s? Is the 'power' in the specific tools or in the protocol itself?
 

SkullTraill

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I think magick is what amounts to us trying to use the underlying “software” of the universe except it’s language and mechanics can never be known to us like how a 2D ant can never know what a 3D sphere looks like. We throw what we can to see what sticks and we develop advanced throwing techniques, however ultimately we will never understand the true mechanics of the universe and/or magick. We just do our best to make things work.

Im sure skinner’s thesis is a good read, but if he truly figured it all out and wrote a “manual” then magick would be trivialized and become the primary technology of humanity, wouldn’t it?
 

Riva626

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John Danaher, Stephen Skinner, Michael Raduga, and other great minds I admire all have one great thing in common..... autism! Seriously though, their rigid adherence to systems and systematically attacking their respective fields is remarkable. As a complete, scatterbrained, ADHD, individual, I envy their ability to approach subjects so systematically. It's brilliant.
 

Robert Ramsay

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I've not read it, but I'll make an educated guess that Skinner has constructed a metaphor and then run with it to its logical conclusion. It is almost certainly self-consistent, but it may not be correct.
Im sure skinner’s thesis is a good read, but if he truly figured it all out and wrote a “manual” then magick would be trivialized and become the primary technology of humanity, wouldn’t it?
This would only be true if magic were 100% reproducible, and it cannot be, although to quote Ben Goldacre: "I think you'll find it's a bit more complicated than that"

Clarke's Third Law states that "any sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from magic". So you could argue that what we have here is a technology that's so advanced, that it is magic :)
 

SkullTraill

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This would only be true if magic were 100% reproducible, and it cannot be, although to quote Ben Goldacre: "I think you'll find it's a bit more complicated than that"

Clarke's Third Law states that "any sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from magic". So you could argue that what we have here is a technology that's so advanced, that it is magic :)
That's literally my point. I'm simply adding on the (what I consider to be a) fact that this "sufficiently advanced technology" is now and forever will be beyond the grasp of human understanding. It's not 100% reproducible because we do not understand it 100%. And we never will because it exists orthogonal to our plane of existence which necessarily confines our capacity to understand. So it may be a technology, it may be the will of beings, it may be anything. It doesn't matter to me what it is. What matters to me is only reproducibility. Which is why I respect Skinner, because whatever his personal goals are, the result of his work directly assists with reproducibility more than probably any other contemporary occult author.
 
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Robert Ramsay

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That's literally my point. I'm simply adding on the (what I consider to be a) fact that this "sufficiently advanced technology" is now and forever will be beyond the grasp of human understanding. It's not 100% reproducible because we do not understand it 100%. And we never will because it exists orthogonal to our plane of existence which necessarily confines our capacity to understand. So it may be a technology, it may be the will of beings, it may be anything. It doesn't matter to me what it is. What matters to me is only reproducibility. Which is why I respect Skinner, because whatever his personal goals are, the result of his work assist with reproducibility more than probably any other contemporary occult author.
Oh I wasn't disrespecting him - I've only heard good things about him; and I guess that my conceit is that I think that magic won't be 100% reproducible even if we did understand it 100%, for good solid physical reasons :). As you know, I don't believe that magic is orthogonal to our plane of existence, instead I see it as a combination of the way the universe is structured, and the methods by which we interact with it.

As usual, I'm not claiming any kind of Truth, and Your Mileage May Vary :)
 

SkullTraill

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Oh I wasn't disrespecting him - I've only heard good things about him; and I guess that my conceit is that I think that magic won't be 100% reproducible even if we did understand it 100%, for good solid physical reasons :). As you know, I don't believe that magic is orthogonal to our plane of existence, instead I see it as a combination of the way the universe is structured, and the methods by which we interact with it.

As usual, I'm not claiming any kind of Truth, and Your Mileage May Vary :)
Yes of course I remember our fundamental disagreement well. It's perhaps the same reason you believe it would never be reproducible, that I believe it'll never be understood... in some roundabout way.
 

stratamaster78

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Just finished digging through Skinner’s PhD thesis on Solomonic 'technology' and honestly, it’s a total game-changer for how we look at grimoires. Instead of the usual mystical fluff, he treats the whole system like a literal operating manual—tracing the gear (wands, circles, inks) all the way back to the PGM.

It’s got me thinking: if magic is basically an evolving technology, why are so many people obsessed with keeping it exactly like it was in the 1500s? Is the 'power' in the specific tools or in the protocol itself?

The Power is in the Individual practitioners level of belief.

Some people most likely have a mindset born from conditioning that leads them to believe that using tech from hundreds of years ago is THE Authentic way of doing Magick and it won’t work otherwise or won’t work as effectively or reliably.

Since that is their mindset their subconscious makes sure it becomes their reality.

Another reason the Old School methods work well or can work well is that by going through all the theatrics and using all the different tools and implements and incense and scripts etc etc it’s easier to ‘play act’ and get into the role where the act becomes fully immersive and believable.

In simple terms we have to ‘Fake It to Make It’ in Magick and the Old School methods help get you all lathered up with Belief.

It doesn’t make it a sure fire bullet proof method but you have to believe in what you are doing.
 

julio

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Skinner’s view, as he has stated several times on social media since 2016 and in various interviews, is that by synthesizing multiple manuscripts one can arrive at a single truth that unlocks the secrets of Solomonic magic. That position is about as persuasive as claiming that by mixing practices from several houses of Vodou one could reconstruct the one “true” Vodou. Anyone within that tradition knows such a notion could only arise in the mind of someone outside it. I would argue that the same logic applies to Solomonic magic.

He has also suggested that the survival of a manuscript across the centuries is evidence of its correctness. History, however, is far more complicated than that. One need only read Foucault’s Pendulum by Umberto Eco to appreciate how manuscripts, interpretations, and the meanings people impose on them can spiral far beyond any supposed original truth.

To those who believe depth in this work can be achieved through superficial synthesis, I wish you the best of luck. It certainly aligns with the contemporary tendency to assume that academics possess hidden formulas, secrets supposedly uncovered by combing through publicly available manuscripts. Perhaps the next book, inevitably presented as indispensable upon release, will finally contain that elusive key.
 

tranmut3

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Just finished digging through Skinner’s PhD thesis on Solomonic 'technology' and honestly, it’s a total game-changer for how we look at grimoires. Instead of the usual mystical fluff, he treats the whole system like a literal operating manual—tracing the gear (wands, circles, inks) all the way back to the PGM.

It’s got me thinking: if magic is basically an evolving technology, why are so many people obsessed with keeping it exactly like it was in the 1500s? Is the 'power' in the specific tools or in the protocol itself?
i'm following Josephine Mccarthy's Quareia course, and she talks alot about ritual magic as being a combination of keys and filters, which allow a certain kind of energy to flow through into the manifest world.
If you change a key, it's not going to work.
The most powerful magical systems were set up under very different circumstances, one in which magic was deeply rooted in everday society and was believed in and followed by everybody all social castes.
in this way, the most effective magical system were worked out, systems which were very precise and acted in a specific way to allow a flow of power to enter the manifest world.

I largely subscribe to this view, and hence tend to think in terms of magic, older is better.
that said, its clear that as Mark Stavish points out in his book 'egregores' it's very possible to set up something in a contermporary way with a conteporary magic group, and actually establish a new tradition, through the shared power of the created egregore.
howevever, ancient magical systems have been set up and plugged in for thousands of years and so carry more deeper magial power within.
 

Robert Ramsay

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Yes of course I remember our fundamental disagreement well. It's perhaps the same reason you believe it would never be reproducible, that I believe it'll never be understood... in some roundabout way.
an interesting thought!

Mine is because the sum total of future paths must add up to the average result, so not everyone is going to share every success with you, even though you personally may experience massive amounts of success :)
I largely subscribe to this view, and hence tend to think in terms of magic, older is better.
that said, its clear that as Mark Stavish points out in his book 'egregores' it's very possible to set up something in a contermporary way with a conteporary magic group, and actually establish a new tradition, through the shared power of the created egregore.
howevever, ancient magical systems have been set up and plugged in for thousands of years and so carry more deeper magial power within.
If you are convinced that older is better, then that approach will prove more successful for you in your work.
 

Firetree

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Skinner’s view, as he has stated several times on social media since 2016 and in various interviews, is that by synthesizing multiple manuscripts one can arrive at a single truth that unlocks the secrets of Solomonic magic. That position is about as persuasive as claiming that by mixing practices from several houses of Vodou one could reconstruct the one “true” Vodou. Anyone within that tradition knows such a notion could only arise in the mind of someone outside it. I would argue that the same logic applies to Solomonic magic.


I agree as well . It is a common human mistake . I too utilize the process - but not to that conclusion . It comes through my study of anthropology ( specifically culturally and tied into Comparative Religions and practices ) which spans all locations and time eras ... we see variety but also specific central themes BUT they are not combined into 'one right view' but are understood that all of them combine make 'a right view' .

So in this we see certain 'undeniable themes' but being 'obscure' and 'extra - sensory ' we create 'cultural clothing' around them specific to each type in an attempt to comprehend and work with them .

He has also suggested that the survival of a manuscript across the centuries is evidence of its correctness. History, however, is far more complicated than that. One need only read Foucault’s Pendulum by Umberto Eco to appreciate how manuscripts, interpretations, and the meanings people impose on them can spiral far beyond any supposed original truth.

And I would urge anyone that wants to get to the truth of the mater to research this development pf Solomonic Magic . And of Solomon himself , the fictional nature and fake role he was given in the writing up and construction of monotheistic Judaism . The transposition onto him of 1. early Canaanite 'magic' and 2. Using Assyrian Kings as a model for his empire and grandure ( that never existed ) .

next one can look at the further development and sources of how this magic was written into the Solomonic sources .. and realise how much rubbish it is . I won't write a treatise on it here ... this will explain it much better than I can ;


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To those who believe depth in this work can be achieved through superficial synthesis, I wish you the best of luck. It certainly aligns with the contemporary tendency to assume that academics possess hidden formulas, secrets supposedly uncovered by combing through publicly available manuscripts. Perhaps the next book, inevitably presented as indispensable upon release, will finally contain that elusive key.

... or be advertised as such ;)
 

MorganBlack

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Many good takes here I'm in sympathy with.

I tend to look at this issue of whatever the hell is ritually "correct" in two ways, that sits somewhere in the middle of Neoplatonism and pure animism. For a nuanced take on what that animism looks like, I highly recommend Brazilian anthropologist Eduardo Viveiros de Castro's work on Perspectivism (thanks to Gordon White for the introduction).

Perspectivism suggest, basically, all spirits look human to themselves. When a jaguar in the forest sees you, as long as you are in eye contact, you will look like another human. This is what De Castro calls Multinaturalism. Once you look away from the jaguar , you might look like a boar to her. When she kills you and drinks your blood, to her she is drinking fermented beer, while you are an ex-human. This example is from De Castro’s Cannibal Metaphysics. To the jaguar, her "nature" shows her that the liquid she consumes is beer. It is only from the human perspective that is your blood. Ritual, ceremony, is one way how we place ourselves in relation to a predator-spirit - it helps us maintain eye contact.

Perspectivism also suggest they can' even see you until you mythologize yourself and your tools. In case some were wondering why we grim trad magicans we consecrate eveything, and outselves, , to take on mythoolgical roles, that's a very good way to think of it so it doesn't look so bizarre.

What I take away from this dovetails very nicely with Neoplatonism, which takes a different view of the same dynamic. Neoplatonism posits that the spirits are daimons that partake of the middle ground between us and The Mystery (here called the Neoplatonic One), which is necessary to communicate with you in ways you can understand. They will be, in a sense, a mix of you and whatever The Mystery is.

Both of these, in my opinion re useful operative models for spirit evocation. In Vodou, there is a technique where a spirit's packet is placed in a hole in the ground along with a metal pole that reaches above the ground. A bonfire is built around the pole. This is an example of the use of materia having a visible effect on the type of manifestation you get that "heats up" the spirit. Modern magic mental evocation is missing out on a huge repertoire of traditional techniques. Similarly, one can offer honey and water to "cool" them. There is a time and place for this dynamic as well.

How you look at these traditional sorcery techniques depends greatly on your cosmological viewpoint. Are you changing the nature of your inner landscape - your mental world in the Hermetic Chain of Manifestation - so the spirit comes through differently? Or are you changing the nature of the environment that they are building their body from? Or are you changing the nature of where you are in relation to the spirit? Perhaps it is a bit of all of them?

In the end, it does not matter. These are all ways of looking at the kind of relationship that will arise if you take up the practice of spirit evocation.

So to that the end, I encourage everyone to try the grimoires.

I am not even sure why people who do not use them and want to argue about them even care, except that they are a bit of an anomaly from modern magic approaches, with weird languages and piety.

What has happened in the last decade is the rise of Diabolist Pagans who have a hard time with the language and get a bit spiteful about anything that sounds Christian to them. I’m not a grimoire purist - change around the rites a bit - but I am a grimoire fundamentalist - know why they are there first. If you change them, you will get different manifestations , that are probably not even the same being anymore.

I was just saying this elsewhere. "Demon" is no more a catch-all for them all together than "pagan god." They are Legion. In my view, Astaroth of the Lesser Key is NOT the Astaroth of the GV. The name is the same, but the seal and the rites are totally different. This matters. The manifestations are totally different. Magicians can make anything work, but some things work better.

Why this is the case, I have my suspicions, but you can think of each of the grimoires as a radio that transmits a particular frequency to a specific class of daimons. You can change out parts of the radio, but not so much that it becomes a toaster. The grims are not really widgets, although I sometimes talk about them that way. They are a language. They are a culture. And there are spirits that oversee them and transmit them.

I was recently talking about the GV's Prayer of Success, the Astrachios Prayer. In my use of it, I have found it to be "linked up" in ways that other words and names may not be. It is a litany of entity names, and I swapped out Silat... who might be the name of a demoness, with Syrach, because he is a key figure in the GV. The name has an internal integrity with the structure of the GV.

For some reason, , in my experience, this prayer seems to have worn a groove in the universe. Parts of it are scattered through the grimoires. Yes, I know this is very anecdotal, and I hate making any fast rules, but I will say incorporating it as a sort of ongoing mantra has often led to much more dramatic manifestations. I would say it on the long drive to and from the studio.

Rupert Sheldrake’s Morphic Fields suggest that things that have happened already have an uptick in probability of happening again, something he calls Morphic Resonance. According to Sheldrake, the more a specific action or pattern is repeated - and we can speculate here, like a ritual or a prayer - the more your success is reinforced by a "memory" in the field of that practice, created by all the times over the centuries it has been used.
 
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