Talismans/Seals made of paper

[DiLoco_DelEted]

Do they carry the same power if properly consecrated as if it were a metal talisman or seal; or not made of virgin parchment or lion skin?

 

[Jadugar]

A lot of magical traditions, esp. those couched in a natural magic worldview (as in the idea that items, actions, words, etc. have innate occult qualities and don't derive power from a higher/lower spiritual source), implies the position that the manifestation of a spell isn't accomplished by performing the right actions, but by gathering enough force going in the direction you want to overpower the flow of influences. A money working, for example, could be done just with an invocation; if the state of the world is auspicious to your Will, then that might be all you need. But if, say, a lot of Saturnian qualities are hampering any growth you want to produce (bad astrological timing, gloomy weather, ill-thoughts, etc.) then an invocation in the day and hour of Jupiter while meditating on its kamea and creating a mojo bag with licorice may be necessary to overcome the inauspicious qualities around and within you.

This is all to say that, yes, a Solar talisman made on gold will be more effacious since now you have more forces flowing in the Solar direction: the talisman and the gold. But keeping a store of diverse metals for diverse needs is expensive and tedious, and paper has the handy quality of being generally free of any strong innate virtues. A kamea of Saturn will be hampered if made on gold but empowered if made on lead, but you could make every talisman on paper and be relatively certain it won't hamper your efforts.

It's an axiom that generally translates well into any sort of worldview, at least the top three models. We've just covered the energetic model, with the spiritual model it can be said that properly corrosponding metals would please the spirits more and make them work harder, and in the psychological model we can say it creates a stronger association in the subconcious that leads to more effacaious work.

 

[SkullTraill]

Not the same, probably, but enough for most low magick/sorcery imo.

If you were to go down the path of high magick, then perhaps the investment would be warranted, otherwise you're buying an M1 Abrahams to hunt a racoon. It'll work better, but it's overkill.

 

[SkullTraill]

This is all to say that, yes, a Solar talisman made on gold will be more effacious since now you have more forces flowing in the Solar direction: the talisman and the gold. But keeping a store of diverse metals for diverse needs is expensive and tedious, and paper has the handy quality of being generally free of any strong innate virtues. A kamea of Saturn will be hampered if made on gold but empowered if made on lead, but you could make every talisman on paper and be relatively certain it won't hamper your efforts.

This is also an underrated point. Metals have alignments that you need to be accutely aware of. Paper is neutral. Way safer and easier for a beginner.

 

[Incognitus]

Paper is usually just fine. It's really a matter of permanence. Do you want to have to redraw every week because your cat scratched up your previous talisman? Plus, honestly, if you work on something more permanent, it's going to mean much more to you and be more useful from a practice standpoint.

Paper is neutral.

I am curious why you say this. Most paper is made of wood pulp, and include many different species such as pine, fir, spruce, larch and hemlock. Hemlock, for example, is well known for use in ritual magic and has a sort of dark correspondence associated (probably because it's poisonous). At the least, a single piece of paper may contain the wood of multiple trees with opposing correspondences, which would make paper fairly chaotic from a magical correspondence point of view. Most trees have associated deities, planets, colors, etc...

In practice, it doesn't really seem to matter. Or maybe it does, and we just don't consider the medium we're using as the thing making a working fail.

 

[Jadugar]

I am curious why you say this. Most paper is made of wood pulp, and include many different species such as pine, fir, spruce, larch and hemlock. Hemlock, for example, is well known for use in ritual magic and has a sort of dark correspondence associated (probably because it's poisonous). At the least, a single piece of paper may contain the wood of multiple trees with opposing correspondences, which would make paper fairly chaotic from a magical correspondence point of view. Most trees have associated deities, planets, colors, etc...

Throwing my own two-cents here for a moment.

I suppose everything is drenched in a variety of influences and that's most the reason why cleansings and/or concecrations are so important in many paths. By dedicating a tool to a specific purpose, you empower certain innate qualities to overpower the rest. If we imagine the material as being a hunk of ore, the concencration is the process by which it is shaped into a blade or a sickle. The potential of both rests within the ore, but by calling it to a specific purpose, the magician may "override" other qualities and apply it to its fullest potential to a specific purpose.

That, and I suppose the dominant occult virtues of an item depend on its current state. Oil comes from the dead materia of long ago plants and animals, but I don't think it'd adviseable to honour a tree in your yard by splashing crude oil on it. Sure, the sheaf of paper at the office supply store might've been made from mighty, protective oak, but after being assailed by a variety of other influences, it's now become blank, flat, and receptive; its occult qualities of when it was a tree is so long ago and so buried under other forces that it just gets dampened and cancelled out.

But just an off-the-top-of-my-head ramble, open to critiques.

 

[SkullTraill]

Paper is usually just fine. It's really a matter of permanence. Do you want to have to redraw every week because your cat scratched up your previous talisman? Plus, honestly, if you work on something more permanent, it's going to mean much more to you and be more useful from a practice standpoint.



I am curious why you say this. Most paper is made of wood pulp, and include many different species such as pine, fir, spruce, larch and hemlock. Hemlock, for example, is well known for use in ritual magic and has a sort of dark correspondence associated (probably because it's poisonous). At the least, a single piece of paper may contain the wood of multiple trees with opposing correspondences, which would make paper fairly chaotic from a magical correspondence point of view. Most trees have associated deities, planets, colors, etc...

In practice, it doesn't really seem to matter. Or maybe it does, and we just don't consider the medium we're using as the thing making a working fail.

I guess in my mind the answer to this is: for the same reason that when you need to offer pine, fir, hemlock, or any of the other substances you listed, you don't offer paper... It's too chaotic and muddled to reflect the attributes of any particular ingredient... making it relatively neutral in my opinion.

 

[Yazata]

One thing I'm thinking of now is how it's said that you are to make talismans on a specific astrological time.
Is drawing a figure on something (or engraving / etching it) the same as making it?
I think what it truly means is to break down the base material (melt metal / dissolve earth in water / make a pulp from old paper) and then pour that into a mold that was made prior. That way the talisman - the body + all markings - is born complete on a specific moment.
Having said that: casting metal can be very frustrating.

 

[SkullTraill]

One thing I'm thinking of now is how it's said that you are to make talismans on a specific astrological time.
Is drawing a figure on something (or engraving / etching it) the same as making it?
I think what it truly means is to break down the base material (melt metal / dissolve earth in water / make a pulp from old paper) and then pour that into a mold that was made prior. That way the talisman - the body + all markings - is born complete on a specific moment.
Having said that: casting metal can be very frustrating.

Hmmm... I think I disagree with this. Imo it's the engraving/markings that "make" the talisman, not the casting.

When you cast, you're just making a metal disc. It only truly becomes a talisman for any particular spirit/energy when it is dedicated to that energy through markings. One could even take that further to say that it only becomes a talisman when empowered with the spirit/energy during the ritual.

 

[Yazata]

Hmmm... I think I disagree with this. Imo it's the engraving/markings that "make" the talisman, not the casting.

When you cast, you're just making a metal disc. It only truly becomes a talisman for any particular spirit/energy when it is dedicated to that energy through markings. One could even take that further to say that it only becomes a talisman when empowered with the spirit/energy during the ritual.

Yeah, what I meant is: when you have a mold (with the design) and pour a liquid substance into it then the talisman is "born" completely at that specific moment.
Here is a Jupiter talisman i made looong ago from pure tin.
The mold I used is the cup of a tea light and the tin was actually molten inside of it rather than pouring it (tin has such a low melting temperature that i have done this with the flame of a candle). I did scratch the cross in later on but regretted it immediately.

https://imgur.com/a/TUO2zLl

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[Incognitus]

Yeah, what I meant is: when you have a mold (with the design) and pour a liquid substance into it then the talisman is "born" completely at that specific moment.
Here is a Jupiter talisman i made looong ago from pure tin.
The mold I used is the cup of a tea light and the tin was actually molten inside of it rather than pouring it (tin has such a low melting temperature that i have done this with the flame of a candle). I did scratch the cross in later on but regretted it immediately.

https://imgur.com/a/TUO2zLl

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Would you be willing to write up how to do this? That's really cool.

 

[Yazata]

Would you be willing to write up how to do this? That's really cool.

Of course man

Just get some pure tin (you may find some cup or sugar pot at a 2nd hand shop - just look if it has a sticker or marking that says it's tin and not lead).
Then saw off a piece, clean it very well or maybe file off the oxydation so that it looks as shiny as silver).
Throw a few chunks in the empty (and cleaned) tin of a tea light.
Hold it with a pair of plyers above / in the flame of a candle.
Within no time the tin will liquify. Roll the cup around a bit whilst keeping it in the flame, because as soon as you take it off the heat the tin is solid.
It doesn't stick, so you can tip over the cup and your talisman will fall out.

 

[Jadugar]

https://imgur.com/a/TUO2zLl

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Bit off topic, but I'm not sure I recognize that book. Could you drop its title? Please and thank you!

 

[Yazata]

Bit off topic, but I'm not sure I recognize that book. Could you drop its title? Please and thank you!

Sure. It's Agrippa's Three Books (the Donald Tyson edition).