[Opinion] The Foundational Principles of Franz Bardon's System

[Elementriloquist]

Yes, that is really a good thing because it is so essential for almost everything later on.

It would have been even better if Bardon included a specific concentration exercise in the book (just as he included specific exercises for pretty much everything else in the book). He kind of leaves it like a free for all of "choose your own focus point" but to me that's kind of annoying because now it's like a game of luck. Not all methods/techniques are created equally, there is definitely one that is a cut above the rest, and leaving it to the user means that some people will be using more effective methods than others (just by mere luck of not being ignorant of those methods).

(There are some fun and creative ways to learn that, don't know if there is already a topic about it. Would be to much off topic for this discussion)

Would be great if there was an entire topic dedicated to it. I wish there was some already well known method that led to consistent and permanent improvement.

 

[Angelkesfarl]

"Concentration is one of the most vital hidden jewels and precise balances in the science of sorcery. You attract what you focus on, or what you direct your thoughts toward. Entreaty (Tawassul) is a form of concentration; supplication and prayers all aim at one single essence: that you concentrate until your signal reaches the intended recipient."

"As for remaining undistracted, this is a training that you will master over time. Here is a simple trick for the mind: Imagine yourself performing your recitation and work while your audience of admirers is watching you. You will see how much your performance will improve, because you will not want them to lose interest in you."

 

[cormundum]

You are using a very subjective "personal definition" of the word "more".

How so? The only real thing to come out of the entire IIH system is the ability to focus, do some meditation and visualization, and conduct an examination of conscience. That's literally just being a slightly devout Roman Catholic. So actually, I change my prescription. It's better to just become a devoutly religious Catholic than to bother with Bardon for 25 years. At least then you'll be in a community around other people who you can help and who can help you and be of use to others rather than just sitting around navel-gazing at your "mirror journal" and imagining breathing rocks into your skin.

 

[Elementriloquist]

The only real thing to come out of the entire IIH system is the ability to focus, do some meditation and visualization, and conduct an examination of conscience.

I'm confused, do you really think people who have gained significant abilities from occult training are going to come forward and make themselves publicly known.

Let me make this simple for you. The point of my statement is that neither the Catholic Religion nor any occult group has any public proof of the grand/mystical claims their group believes, but one offers personal power and actual abilities as it's "more", and the other just offers servitude to a God and possibly a heaven as it's "more". if you "make the cut" and don't get tossed into hell (of which most will based on the doctrine, which isn't even consistent as I'm expecting you may be one of those "actually, hell isn't literal/real" types).

My point is, whatever "mystical more" boths sides offer, the potential offered to the occultist is more than what is offered to the devout religious person (of any religion). Blind faith and servitude is not an offer, and having the main reward be something you'll supposedly get conveniently after you die just sounds like a scam too. I'd much rather invest my time and effort in something that interests me that I can test myself in real time while I'm alive.

It's better to just become a devoutly religious Catholic than to bother with Bardon for 25 years. So actually, I change my prescription. It's better to just become a devoutly religious Catholic than to bother with Bardon for 25 years.

I'm starting to think you also struggled with the training too lol, and that's what has brought on this frustration.

On another note, you just sound like some kind of "plant" pretending to be an occultist but you are actually just one of those cliche "internet missionaries" who make it their personal job to go to spaces that have nothing to do with religion and proselytize.

Because why are you so specifically promoting Catholoticism and not just saying "it's better to just join a religion" period?

At least then you'll be in a community around other people who you can help and who can help you and be of use to others rather than just sitting around navel-gazing at your "mirror journal" and imagining breathing rocks into your skin.

You don't need to join any religion to get that.

 

[cormundum]

I'm confused, do you really think people who have gained significant abilities from occult training are going to come forward and make themselves publicly known.

Let me make this simple for you. The point of my statement is that neither the Catholic Religion nor any occult group has any public proof of the grand/mystical claims their group believes, but one offers personal power and actual abilities as it's "more", and the other just offers servitude to a God and possibly a heaven as it's "more". if you "make the cut" and don't get tossed into hell (of which most will based on the doctrine, which isn't even consistent as I'm expecting you may be one of those "actually, hell isn't literal/real" types).

My point is, whatever "mystical more" boths sides offer, the potential offered to the occultist is more than what is offered to the devout religious person (of any religion). Blind faith and servitude is not an offer, and having the main reward be something you'll supposedly get conveniently after you die just sounds like a scam too. I'd much rather invest my time and effort in something that interests me that I can test myself in real time while I'm alive.


I'm starting to think you also struggled with the training too lol, and that's what has brought on this frustration.

On another note, you just sound like some kind of "plant" pretending to be an occultist but you are actually just one of those cliche "internet missionaries" who make it their personal job to go to spaces that have nothing to do with religion and proselytize.

Because why are you so specifically promoting Catholoticism and not just saying "it's better to just join a religion" period?


You don't need to join any religion to get that.

Catholicism/Orthodoxy are fully integral systems of mystical training and initiation. Both are highly related to Hermeticism, and scholars such as David Litwa (if I recall correctly, might be someone else) make a pretty solid argument that Hermeticists regarded Christ as the Logos and Savior.

My point still stands. Show me one person who has actually done anything with Bardon's system, other than selling books about Bardon, without breaking his rules and skipping around it. I've seen miracles accomplished by very simple prayers by simple people, and hundreds of thousands of people can attest to the healings wrought at Lourdes and the sacred wells in the British Isles. Even Donald Tyson's wife has spoken about this and she's the furthest thing from a hardcore dogmatic Catholic.

Why Catholicism? For the simple reason that "just join a religion" doesn't mean a system of initiation and close communal bonds. Having grown up "religious" in an Evangelical type milieu, there was no community, no initiatic system, no serious study, nothing. Catholicism (not specifically Roman, ftr, there are other ways to be Catholic) encourages the believer to study, pray regularly using meditative methods, and requires minimum participation in the Sacraments which put the person in direct contact with God the Logos (Eucharist, sacramental absolution/Penance).

I'm also assuming that the vast majority of people on here are from Western society, either Anglo-American or Western/Central European, or from Catholic regions like everything south of Texas. It's better to stick to something that is within your cultural frame of reference rather than jumping around all over the place to Russian Orthodoxy, Hinduism, Buddhism, Asatru, what have you.

 

[Elementriloquist]

Catholicism/Orthodoxy are fully integral systems of mystical training and initiation. Both are highly related to Hermeticism, and scholars such as David Litwa (if I recall correctly, might be someone else) make a pretty solid argument that Hermeticists regarded Christ as the Logos and Savior.

This just sounds to me like the typical behavior of Christians, mixing their faith into everything to "make it ok for them to do it" or to "assimilate people into the faith". A good example is Christmas. There is no proof that Jesus was even born on the 25th of December and it's more likely that date is connected to some pagan day of significance (among all the other pagan practices that have been melded into the holiday as if it's Christian - Mistletoe, Yule Logs, Evergreen Trees, Winter Solstice, etc).

Isn't magic of any kind supposed to go against the Christian faith?

A lot of religions just seem to have "stolen" the stories of older myths and repurposed them into their doctrine (Christianity especially). Let's not even go into all of the obvious plagarization between the story of Jesus and the Story of Mithra. Both had a "virgin" birth, both had 12 companions, and while Christmas is Dec 25th, the Roman Dies Natalis Solis Invicti (Unconquered Sun) festival, linked to Mithras/Sol, was also celebrated then. The story of Mithra is significantly older than the story of Jesus btw.

Let's not even go into the history of the Catholic faith at one point accepting monetary donations from people for the purpose of helping dead relatives get into heaven (and get out of purgatory faster). Yeah you'll say those were just "corrupt people abusing the faith" and they weren't "real catholics", but that's just a "no true scotsman" fallacy. It's too convenient that every bad Christian/member of any religion get's their membership revoked as soon as something bad about them is publicly known.

Do I even have to mention the well known pedophilia problem?

Honestly, one could choose a better faith than Catholicism as an alternative to occult practice. I'd probably go with Tibetan Buddhism, as the minor abilities you can gain through the practice are actually researched, tested and documented (Tummo is a good example).

Please, Log in or Register to view URLs content!

My point still stands. Show me one person who has actually done anything with Bardon's system

I think you are missing the point. Nobody with any real powers would be stupid enough to come forward and out themselves.

What even awaits you in that scenario:
Being kidnapped by your government for research and experimentation?
Being killed by some secret organization dedicated to keeping knowledge like that a secret?
Having your family be held ransom while you are blackmailed into using your abilities for someone elses goals?

Nobody is ever going to publicly do anything with any occult system, because anyone intelligent enough to progress in the training to gain the abilities, would also be intelligent enough to know that they have to keep those abilities a secret.

I've seen miracles accomplished by very simple prayers by simple people

Peoples minds play tricks all the time, and I doubt those miracles were scrutinized in any real way.

and hundreds of thousands of people can attest to the healings wrought at Lourdes and the sacred wells in the British Isles

Eye witness testimony is not really trustworthy at all, especially when people want to believe something.

It's better to stick to something that is within your cultural frame of reference rather than jumping around all over the place to Russian Orthodoxy, Hinduism, Buddhism, Asatru, what have you.

No, it's better to choose the better offer. There's no reason to not learn a new langauge and/or culture, and even immigrate to a new country, if what it offers you seems more enjoyable and worthwhile to you (especially if it offers you more in benefits).

Now I think I'll end this here because this back and forth would never end and there's not point in really arguing this. We'll both find out whether or not our chosen paths were worth it in the end.

 

[mag1caljeet]

By the way, fellas.

Christianity and Bardon ARE NOT mutually exclusive. I think it's stupid to argue as if they were.
You can do both at the same time and in fact, you would probably see faster progress if you were to mix mystical aspects of Christianity and Bardon training. Prayer is a VERY powerful tool and should not be underestimated.

Show me one person who has actually done anything with Bardon's system, other than selling books about Bardon, without breaking his rules and skipping around it.

I think it's because of the very nature of the system itself. Silence is one of the main pillars for a magician, and the astral training aims at ennobling one's self, so pride and arrogance would most likely be sorted out by the time they reach the later steps.

So it would make sense that most of those who reached the higher steps would prefer staying quiet about their activities: they wouldn't want extra attention, lose potency or simply wouldn't have an ego to fulfill. If a Bardonian magician did something great, they probably wouldn't tell the whole world.

They would probably appear as normal people and act as normal people, you may have even seen them in your life but never noticed them. For those that do come out and show themselves, they are usually trying to teach others how to get further into the system.

 

[Elementriloquist]

Christianity and Bardon ARE NOT mutually exclusive.

I'm confused, is practicing magic of any kind not against the Christian faith?
Is there some kind of special loophole to the verses below?
Is there some special denomination that the Christian God will "give a pass" to?

Deuteronomy 18:10-12: Explicitly forbids "anyone who practices witchcraft, or is an interpreter of omens, or a sorcerer, or a spellcaster, or a medium or a spiritist, or one who consults the dead," calling such acts detestable to the Lord.
Exodus 22:18: States, "You shall not permit a sorceress to live" (KJV: "Thou shalt not suffer a witch to live").
1 Samuel 15:23: Saul's downfall is linked to his consultation with a medium.
Galatians 5:19-21: Lists "witchcraft" (pharmakeia) among the works of the flesh.

 

[cormundum]

I'm confused, is practicing magic of any kind not against the Christian faith?
Is there some kind of special loophole to the verses below?
Is there some special denomination that the Christian God will "give a pass" to?

Deuteronomy 18:10-12: Explicitly forbids "anyone who practices witchcraft, or is an interpreter of omens, or a sorcerer, or a spellcaster, or a medium or a spiritist, or one who consults the dead," calling such acts detestable to the Lord.
Exodus 22:18: States, "You shall not permit a sorceress to live" (KJV: "Thou shalt not suffer a witch to live").
1 Samuel 15:23: Saul's downfall is linked to his consultation with a medium.
Galatians 5:19-21: Lists "witchcraft" (pharmakeia) among the works of the flesh.

Witchcraft/pharmakeia is not magick. Many of the greatest magicians and writers of magickal theory known to us (Agrippa, Albertus Magnus, Paracelsus, etc) were Christian. Hildegard von Bingen writes all about the natural powers of the stones and plants for healing and all sorts of purposes (aka "witchcraft"), as did Albertus Magnus. You obviously have a bone to pick with Christianity that prevents you from seeing reason.

And for the record I'm not advocating for Christianity replacing whatever esoteric practice, other than Bardonism. Bardon's system seems useless and like it doesn't lead to anything practical. It's just more early-20th century Orientalism that we should let go of as a symptom of the time, and look to embrace our own cultural heritage. We have a very rich mystical tradition that does all the same things as IIH without all the anthroposophical goofiness. If you want spiritual experience, get religious. If you want practical magickal results, you'll be better off doing Trithemius' (another abbot) angel magick and getting empowerments that way in a matter of months rather than spending 30 years on Bardon.

Post automatically merged: Yesterday at 8:06 PM

Just to add: I've known over the years people who practice Solomonic magick and a few people who were really into Bardon. The people who practiced the former seemed to have more going on for them than the latter. The latter system really seems oriented towards mystical attainment, which has nothing to do with practicing actual magick. The two can kinda bleed into each other, but magick is first and foremost for getting things done, rather than getting into strange states of experiencing God.

 

[Elementriloquist]

Witchcraft/pharmakeia is not magick.

This is a red herring, the verses (Deuteronomy 18:10-12) go into specifics of what you aren't allowed to practice - "anyone who practices witchcraft, or is an interpreter of omens, or a sorcerer, or a spellcaster, or a medium or a spiritist, or one who consults the dead"

So you randomly focusing on that one little line is definitely a red herring lol. I'm not going to get into a "definition debate" of what you consider to be "magic" or not. It's just simply apparent that you aren't allowed to practice what the Bible says you aren't allowed to practice.

Of course, I do expect humans to be humans and rationalize their own loopholes though, but the rules are the rules. But, it's not as if Chrisitans these days strictly follow the rules of their holy text anyways.

I'll admit, you roped me back in with that red herring lol. But I'm really ending the back and forth here now.

You obviously have a bone to pick with Christianity that prevents you from seeing reason.

Nothing to do with Christianity specifically. A lot of religions forbid praticing those things. I just happen to be speaking to someone who is adamant about promoting Catholicism so that's what I'm critiquing. If you were promoting Islam I'd be critiquing that instead.

If you want spiritual experience, get religious. If you want practical magickal results, you'll be better off doing Trithemius' (another abbot) angel magick

If that's the route someone else wants to go I say go for it, but "power by proxy" is not true power, it's self delusion to think otherwise. If you can only do supernatural feats because you are pleading with some angel or higher being to make it happen, then it's not really your power/ability, and at any time should you want to do something and they don't want you to do it, you are now powerless (more like, made aware of your powerlessness).

It's like a gun that can only shoot if the gun manufacturer decides that day that you should be able to shoot at your chosen target. If your beliefs always align with the manufacturer so the gun always works, that doesn't make it a good gun, that just makes you a good follower/servant of that manufacturer, the gun is still a garbage gun because it can only fulfill it's purpose if you get permission (it essentially isn't "your" gun).

It's like owning one of those electric vehicles that the manufacturer can disable in real time.

What always appealed to me with Bardon's system is that it's about you training to attain your own power that you can use as you see fit without having to beseech any external entity. Though the 2nd book does go specifically into training evocation, it's still done in a way where it's ultimately you in control.

Bardon's system is about "personal power" not "proxy power".

 

[Beyond Everything]

Honestly want to know what alternative(s) you would recommend.

I mean I didn't say Bardon was completely worthless, just overrated. I think the problems are clear and I delineated them. The large claims in the books vs reality.

The path is highly individual. Personally I haven't gotten much out of occult books in general, and the groups I've looked into are total wastes of time.

The occult (in the largest general sense) can provide a chance for immortality as something like a godlike being. It's worth contemplating that and then asking if things are just going to be given on a silver platter for the price of a book or some membership fee. Beyond that, things are necessarily individual for various technical reasons.

On another note, Crowley was born into wealth and priviledge and ultimately died a poverty stricken drug addict. He is still celebrated and heralded as a great magician and there are likely still dedicated Thelemites.

Bardon allegedly died from pancreatitis while imprisoned by his government for for publishing occult materials. And prior to that he was allegedly imprisoned in a Nazi camp for refusing to perform occult rituals at their request.

I mean, all round he just has a more respectable story and ending than Crowley, so why would anyone judge Bardon anymore strictly than we see others judging Crowley. I never really see Crowley being criticized or looked down upon in any occult spaces and his ending was terrible and he wasted the priviledge he was born into.

I've seen Crowley criticized much more than Bardon, who seems to be impervious to explication of the very obvious problems I've stated. Part of the problem was the hagiography his secretary cooked up. For myself, I have derived nothing of personal value from Crowley's work.

 

[Elementriloquist]

I mean I didn't say Bardon was completely worthless, just overrated.

I'm not taking this personally, it wouldn't matter to me if you said he was worthless. I'm genuinely just looking for other things to research and test. But if Bardon is overated, then who/what practice is "accurately rated"?

I think the problems are clear and I delineated them.

Why would the alleged problems even matter to anyone if you don't present a less problematic alternative?

If the choice is between eating a bowl of plain white rice, and starving, we will obviously just eat the rice until we can get something better to eat.

Ever heard the quote - "a bird in hand is worth two in the bush"?

You don't even offer the "two in the bush" part, so there's even less of a reason for someone to care about your critique of their "bird in hand".

It's one thing to critique something as overrated. It's another thing to make that same critique and then follow it up with "well I don't have any alternatives to recommend though, but take my word for it that it's overrated", like come on lol.

I haven't gotten much out of occult books in general, and the groups I've looked into are total wastes of time.

Ok, so why would your judgement of what is "overrated" even hold any value when you follow it up with statements like this?

Like honestly I thought this would lead to some new discovery or something but now your critique of Bardon just seems pointles. That other guy atleast reccomended Catholicism.

 

[Beyond Everything]

but take my word for it that it's overrated", like come on lol.

I said 'take my word'? Or I detailed very specific things, factual things? Again, he made specfic claims about spirits and letters, meanwhile his health was in shambles. That isn't taking my word, that is highlighting reality.

If you feel it's 'pointless' to point out reality, I don't know what to tell you.

 

[Elementriloquist]

I said 'take my word'? Or I detailed very specific things, factual things? Again, he made specfic claims about spirits and letters, meanwhile his health was in shambles. That isn't taking my word, that is highlighting reality.

You are pressuposing a framework based on your opinionated beliefs. You are confusing your opinion for facts. What you did is the logical equivalent of someone saying Jesus can't be the son of God or have had any supernatural abilities because he got arrested by common soldiers and died on a cross.

Before you try to deflect from the point with a red herring, I am not comparing Bardon to Jesus as if he is on par with him, I am using the story of Jesus as an example of the concept of prophecy/destiny making someone go along with unfortunate events despite them potentially having the power to stop them.

The person in my example is pressupposing a framework that leaves out that it was his destiny to die on the cross and he knew he had to fulfill that specific destiny so he let it happen (and all the other bad things connected to that final bad event). I don't believe in the Christian doctrine, I'm just showing you how your logic is flawed on your critique for Bardon based on "facts", because you are assuming it isn't possible that he allowed those things to happen because for some reason he knew (or was told) to do so for some "destiny" kind of reasoning (or as part of some pact). Something like that is within the realm of possibility based on what is written in his books.

If you remove the same context from the story of Jesus, all we have is a guy who was killed just like any normal human would when faced with the same injuries, and whose body allegedly disappeared as if he rose from the dead (but there's no real evidence of that).

TLDR #1 - Saying "Bardon died of health issues despite having magic abilities" is like saying "Jesus died on the cross despite being the literal son of God". This framework leaves out the concept of a "martyrdom" that is dictated to the individual by forces beyond themselves and that they chose to go along with it because of some prophecy/pact that needs to be fulfilled.

If you feel it's 'pointless' to point out reality

If were truly going based on reality then why draw an abitrary line at "this specific occultist isn't believable". It's more realistic to draw the line at "the occult itself isn't believable" if you are taking the whole "facts" and "reality" position. The reality is that we wake up everyday and see no irl demonstrations of supernatural abilities, see no news about it, no verified studies disccusing the phenomena of it proven to be true, no textbooks teaching it in school, etc.

From observing reality, magic doesn't exist in this world.

You think you are speaking with facts, but it's just opionions based on the arbitrary lines you are drawing.

TLDR #2 - If your position is about facts and reality, then it's really ironic to take that position while also speaking as if magic is a factual thing commonly observed in reality. It's like you are walking a tightrope, it's a balancing act of trying to argue facts and reality within the framework of something that the observable world conveys is not real or factual.

 

[cormundum]

I'm not taking this personally, it wouldn't matter to me if you said he was worthless. I'm genuinely just looking for other things to research and test. But if Bardon is overated, then who/what practice is "accurately rated"?


Why would the alleged problems even matter to anyone if you don't present a less problematic alternative?

If the choice is between eating a bowl of plain white rice, and starving, we will obviously just eat the rice until we can get something better to eat.

Ever heard the quote - "a bird in hand is worth two in the bush"?

You don't even offer the "two in the bush" part, so there's even less of a reason for someone to care about your critique of their "bird in hand".

It's one thing to critique something as overrated. It's another thing to make that same critique and then follow it up with "well I don't have any alternatives to recommend though, but take my word for it that it's overrated", like come on lol.


Ok, so why would your judgement of what is "overrated" even hold any value when you follow it up with statements like this?

Like honestly I thought this would lead to some new discovery or something but now your critique of Bardon just seems pointles. That other guy atleast reccomended Catholicism.

The point is there are so many better systems than Bardon while he gets played up all the time.

If you want to reject Catholicism as a valid path, take Crowley's magickal system, more the A.A. side of the system. It teaches meditation and all sorts of mystical stuff, but actually has an end goal that happens in this life, which is meeting your HGA and doing HGA stuff after that, and crossing the Abyss to release yourself from yourself. Abramelin (which is part of the AA curriculum) is an entirely practical magickal system, no mystical woo-woo nonsense about "pore-breathing" for fifty years or any of that there. Fast and pray for a few months and BOOM! Holy Guardian Angel and binding demons and stuff. Crowley ends up incorporating more Kabbalah in his version than the original form of the rite, but still the point is that you meet your personal representative from God, conquer Satan, and then accomplish things for yourself and those around you.

I've met a couple Abramelinites who actually did the work (nobody who's online, just for the record) and they're doing pretty well for themselves. Living independently in stable situations through serendipity without having to work for others and all sorts of interesting occurrences. The few Bardon people I've known have all had normal jobs and don't live particularly interesting corporeal lives. Maybe they are just way more exalted than me, idk, but I'd like to think that a magickal system that requires 25 plus years of hours of meditation to get anywhere with it would lead to you having something a bit better than your average working-class Joe in America. Crowley at least encourages people to push through his system with discipline and to get somewhere and have the experiences, rather than the facade built around Bardonism of "oh man this'll take generations to complete, better just sit here in King's Pose all day so I can finally get to some theurgy while I have to keep a job."

 

[Beyond Everything]

You are pressuposing a framework based on your opinionated beliefs. You are confusing your opinion for facts. What you did is the logical equivalent of someone saying Jesus can't be the son of God or have had any supernatural abilities because he got arrested by common soldiers and died on a cross.

Well, if you want to say a religious fairy tale has ontological validity (jesus) or that spiritual masochism has some sort of cosmic significance (martyrdom), well then you can twist all this to fit whatever you wish. However, Bardon didn't just passively accept his health fate-ie. he attempted to use spagyrics to fix his blood pressure and that didn't work (and his secretary created some mythology about him). Believe what you want, I'm just giving my perspective on things, but again I am referencing actual realities. If you need to recruit some metapuke, excuse me-metaphysical excuses for it so Bardon continues to be an eminence in your head, knock yourself out lol

 

[Elementriloquist]

If you need to recruit some metapuke, excuse me-metaphysical excuses for it so Bardon continues to be an eminence in your head, knock yourself out lol

I don't care about how Bardon is percieved or not, I just like how his system is structured. If the exact same system was designed by a Nazi who was said to be the "worst man to ever exist" it would not matter to me, I'd still test it.

People need to learn to "separate the creator from their work".

Like I told you earlier:

it wouldn't matter to me if you said he was worthless.

You are likely projecting your "idol obsession" mindset onto me. I'm simply pointing out the flaws in your logic about why his system shouldn't be trusted. If you applied that same logic to any other unproven mystical/spiritual system, none of them should be trusted. Your application of your logic is selective, that's my point.

I'm not looking for some idol to worship, just a system that suits my tastes and my goals. I'm just pointing out how your entire "facts" and "reality" angle doesn't make any sense at all, and it's like you lack the self awareness to realize it's a weird balancing act to affirm this position when the observable reality conveys that magic/occult isn't factual or real. You are drawing an arbitrary line in the sand.

It's all "fairy tales" until there's some big public reveal and a large group of occultists come forward simultaneously and demonstrate their abilities ot the public and have them tested and verified by scientists.

Ironically you are putting in all of this effort to argue and you don't even have an alternative in mind to recommend lol. Like what is even the point?

Let's say you hypothetically change my mind, what am I left with then?, nothing? It's like you aren't even thinking this through in real time, you have nothing to offer but it's like you are trying to convince others what they already have isn't worth keeping. Nobody is going to care about your critique even if it was valid when you don't offer a replacement. It's like telling someone to go be homeless instead of living in their crappy apartment lol.

Next time, atleast come with an alternative and maybe the next person you make these nonsense arguments with may actually agree with you. I'll end it here.

 

[Beyond Everything]

I don't care about how Bardon is percieved or not, I just like how his system is structured. If the exact same system was designed by a Nazi who was said to be the "worst man to ever exist" it would not matter to me, I'd still test it.

People need to learn to "separate the creator from their work".

This is quite specious because no one was talking about character or morality (as in your nazi example) but...hello...RESULTS lol He has 2 books claiming perfect health can be achieved and he himself was very far from that. Then after his death his secretary confabulates some bs to explain it all away.

What you do with this information is up to you. Standing on your own two feet is a prerequisite for any real occult development.

 

[mag1caljeet]

This is quite specious because no one was talking about character or morality (as in your nazi example) but...hello...RESULTS lol He has 2 books claiming perfect health can be achieved and he himself was very far from that. Then after his death his secretary confabulates some bs to explain it all away.

What you do with this information is up to you. Standing on your own two feet is a prerequisite for any real occult development.

where does one start in that case, to stand on their own two feet?

 

[stalkinghyena]

is there a better system to follow?

Maybe not "better" but Frank Aragon's writings might be worth a perusal. His Forbidden Parapsychology is actually quite useful and the exercises very simple.
But I personally feel that careful study of Eliphas Levi, particularly his Dogma et Ritual are essential to understanding the likes of Bardon and other popular 20th century magi.