When do you Speak, When do you Listen?

[IllusiveOwl]

It's really common for people in dismal living situations to give advice on achieving personal power, people with a terrible record of longterm relationships to give relationship advice, and for critics who haven't made a single piece of art to advise artists. This applies very much to occult & mystical orders too, where people call themselves Master as a matter of fact.

This confidence-fueled unself-awareness spirals into creating some profoundly delusional and detached-from-reality characters who believe themselves infallible and fit to help others who have their shit way more in order. In day to day life I just smile politely and nod, go with their flow, and leave as soon as possible, but online it's really difficult to find the grace of restraint. When a party lacks this restraint - especially online - argument breaks out of "I'm right and you're wrong, here's why" and "You're an idiot and you're wrong, here's why!"

Why are so many people like this? They just harden themselves up into psychological rocks! Is it just the natural state of the ego to see itself as a master of its life? Are these people husks of pride because of this attitude, or were they already in this state and act as a master to cope? Is it because when you speak, you cannot listen, and therefore avoid any chance of self reflection? What the fuck is so wrong with considering oneself to be a student first & foremost?

How do you deal with these people? How do you guard yourself against becoming one? Do you know of any friendly way of giving these people a reality check without just pushing them into their defensive turtleshell of bullshit-conceit?

Most important of all - imo - in matters of the occult, how do you know when you speak, and when you listen to someone of a different opinion?

 

[Yazata]

In day to day life I just smile politely and nod, go with their flow, and leave as soon as possible, but online it's really difficult to find the grace of restraint.

Weird. Why is it harder online to smile and nod and leave as soon as possible? If anything it would seem simpler to be honest.

 

[IllusiveOwl]

Weird. Why is it harder online to smile and nod and leave as soon as possible? If anything it would seem simpler to be honest.

Because there is less motivation not to challenge the person, it's less draining & more detached, plus you can formulate a more elaborate response than the usual back & forth in-person conflicts devolve into.

 

[Yazata]

less motivation not to challenge the person

Keyboard warrior

 

[voidcat]

In my classes in college regarding public speaking there was a thing on this. Active listening. It's actually a skill that needs developing. It takes time to develop the ability to listen without preconcieved ideas pushing back and ask questions that are critical. As a public speaker it's their job to catch the audiences attention be as honest as possible and listen to feedback. As the audience it's their job to listen attentively without constantly criticizing what's being said, without conceived notions of the topic getting in the way of again listening and to ask thought out questions. Active listening is a very hard skill to master and many folk don't know how to do it. I myself need to work on it.


That's what came to mind reading the OP here

 

[IllusiveOwl]

Keyboard warrior

And I take in the Wins thanks to wearing W by Jake Paul, my hero when it comes to challenging people I know I can beat.

Post automatically merged: Dec 28, 2024

I myself need to work on it.

It's important to be humble, recognize where you are in life, and where you can go from there. You can learn from everyone, but only if you intend not to preach to them.

 

[voidcat]

It's important to be humble, recognize where you are in life, and where you can go from there. You can learn from everyone, but only if you intend not to preach to them.

I agree. I'm all over the place lately. Can't really think clearly.

The big issue is sometimes my brain moves faster then my mouth and I talk before I think.

I try not to preach at people but I do think sometimes people talk without know the effects of their words.

 

[Xenophon]

It's really common for people in dismal living situations to give advice on achieving personal power, people with a terrible record of longterm relationships to give relationship advice, and for critics who haven't made a single piece of art to advise artists. This applies very much to occult & mystical orders too, where people call themselves Master as a matter of fact.

This confidence-fueled unself-awareness spirals into creating some profoundly delusional and detached-from-reality characters who believe themselves infallible and fit to help others who have their shit way more in order. In day to day life I just smile politely and nod, go with their flow, and leave as soon as possible, but online it's really difficult to find the grace of restraint. When a party lacks this restraint - especially online - argument breaks out of "I'm right and you're wrong, here's why" and "You're an idiot and you're wrong, here's why!"

Why are so many people like this? They just harden themselves up into psychological rocks! Is it just the natural state of the ego to see itself as a master of its life? Are these people husks of pride because of this attitude, or were they already in this state and act as a master to cope? Is it because when you speak, you cannot listen, and therefore avoid any chance of self reflection? What the fuck is so wrong with considering oneself to be a student first & foremost?

How do you deal with these people? How do you guard yourself against becoming one? Do you know of any friendly way of giving these people a reality check without just pushing them into their defensive turtleshell of bullshit-conceit?

Most important of all - imo - in matters of the occult, how do you know when you speak, and when you listen to someone of a different opinion?

You could just try ignoring people like me. It irks the bee-jism out of us, but there's not much we can do if you don't leave an opening.

Seriously I had a friend who used to say the worst thing you could do to a fool was to assure him he was indeed correct. This guy had survived as a communist in islamicist Iran, so he knew about living under 24/7 aggravation.

 

[IllusiveOwl]

You could just try ignoring people like me.

I have the strangest feeling that you don't have the reputation of ignoring stupid conversations. Maybe I'm imagining it.

This guy had survived as a communist in islamicist Iran, so he knew about living under 24/7 aggravation.

Was the ideological disagreement really the source of aggravation in Iran? Wouldn't he be just as aggravated everywhere else, like in America, having to grind and play in the capitalists rat race?

 

[Shade]

How do you deal with these people? How do you guard yourself against becoming one? Do you know of any friendly way of giving these people a reality check without just pushing them into their defensive turtleshell of bullshit-conceit?

Most important of all - imo - in matters of the occult, how do you know when you speak, and when you listen to someone of a different opinion?

eh.. “how to guard yourself against becoming one”-
Be mindful, it will happen from time to time, however just because someone is in a “low” point doesn’t mean you or others can’t or shouldn’t offer guidance As long as it’s sincere. In fact it can help you recognize your own faults. There is a therapy called GGI (or group guided interaction) which utilizes this.
-
Giving people a reality check.. some people who seem to be in a bad situation may just seem that way due to your own perception or standard, It depends on how they see life vs how you see it. I can be very careless and when online especially careless and flaky, people judge that a lot so why do the same to them? I don’t want to be like them lol.
Best way to get through to someone imo is try to understand things through their eyes so you can reach an understanding.

Or if it’s a topic you feel strongly about and you are not willing to change your mind, don’t try and change theirs.

Most important - in the occult- I think Socrates has a quote about this…. something like.. “Know Thyself”
but in all seriousness, That is very subjective and unique to everyone’s experience. I find it best not to try and judge, it’s an ever evolving and changing process because each individual is unique, your views and their views both will likely change overtime. but - “sic vita est”.

just my 2 cents.

Then again I may or may not be in a spot to give the best advice. Lol

 

[Xenophon]

I have the strangest feeling that you don't have the reputation of ignoring stupid conversations. Maybe I'm imagining it.

Was the ideological disagreement really the source of aggravation in Iran? Wouldn't he be just as aggravated everywhere else, like in America, having to grind and play in the capitalists rat race?

At that time, the government there was arresting communists. Death was a real possibility. But, yeah, in the States he found an avocation as a aggravation-grinder. (Oddly, his lone academic publication was a book with the late Charles Hartshorne, editing that one's writings on God. A bit of a turn for a Marxist.)

 

[Wintruz]

It's really common for people in dismal living situations to give advice on achieving personal power, people with a terrible record of longterm relationships to give relationship advice, and for critics who haven't made a single piece of art to advise artists.

I would approach this with nuance. I understand what you're saying and there are many who speak without asking themselves whether what they have to say is either invited or useful. We live in an age when "Have your say" is practically a mantra. Asking oneself whether what one has to say is of high quality has yet to be sloganised. And yet...

As a boy, before I embarked on my own storied love life, in waiting rooms I would read women's magazines talking about "problems", the solutions to which were obvious to me even as a child. Yes, life experience has made me more aware of context but I wouldn't revise my answers to most of these situations. In other words, you don't need to have had direct experience to have "wisdom". Some people do have insight that others, apparently, do not. Equally, you don't have to attempt to create music to know bad music when you hear it. I needn't have directed a film to know there's a difference between Michael Bay and Stanley Kubrick.

This applies very much to occult & mystical orders too, where people call themselves Master as a matter of fact.

This confidence-fueled unself-awareness spirals into creating some profoundly delusional and detached-from-reality characters who believe themselves infallible and fit to help others who have their shit way more in order. In day to day life I just smile politely and nod, go with their flow, and leave as soon as possible, but online it's really difficult to find the grace of restraint. When a party lacks this restraint - especially online - argument breaks out of "I'm right and you're wrong, here's why" and "You're an idiot and you're wrong, here's why!"

Why are so many people like this? They just harden themselves up into psychological rocks! Is it just the natural state of the ego to see itself as a master of its life? Are these people husks of pride because of this attitude, or were they already in this state and act as a master to cope? Is it because when you speak, you cannot listen, and therefore avoid any chance of self reflection? What the fuck is so wrong with considering oneself to be a student first & foremost?

In the first instance, social media is simply a hostile environment. Rudeness and one-up-manship are, largely, the default and many people unconsciously presume this in their interactions with strangers online. This makes them more defensive than they're likely to be in the flesh. Furthermore, the "culture" of the internet is profoundly pseudo-intellectual and clout is bestowed upon those who demonstrate their ability to "destroy" others' propositions. You are far, far more likely to encounter an "acktshually" than you are a comment which says something complimentary. A comment which is both complimentary and challenging is near-mythic. In time all of this may change but it's likely to be slow. In the meantime, be selective about what you spend your energy on. Nobody has infinite energy and correcting, bubble bursting or giving a reality check, aren't your job. That's energy you need for other things.

In occult groups in particular, I was lucky to have, early on, encountered an iconoclastic group which pounced like a pack of wolves on those who bestowed titles upon themselves. This led to intense distrust of anyone who used a title and a distrust of titles generally. There are simply only initiates with more experience, are further down the road, than others. In some instances, when a person has gone so far that they encompass truly active/acausal presences, I would call those people "masters" but only after meeting them for myself and acknowledging to others that this is a person who is worth listening to.

Beyond that, and in terms of G.'.D.'. and para-Masonic type groups, it's all a bit like Idi Amin calling himself the King of Scotland. Elizabeth II reputedly simply smiled and said "but of course..."

Most important of all - imo - in matters of the occult, how do you know when you speak, and when you listen to someone of a different opinion?

Presume that it's nonsense, be hyper-critical. If it withstands scrutiny or if it articulates something that you know from experience to be true, then it's worth considering.

 

[EmeraldDragon]

You can learn from everyone and teach to everyone. We are all masters in some ways, but students in countless more ways.

Is the fire of a match superior to the fire of a zippo? I respect everyone, but listen mostly to those who have results, not showmanship.

 

[David Wilson-Steer]

It's really common for people in dismal living situations to give advice on achieving personal power, people with a terrible record of longterm relationships to give relationship advice, and for critics who haven't made a single piece of art to advise artists. This applies very much to occult & mystical orders too, where people call themselves Master as a matter of fact.

This confidence-fueled unself-awareness spirals into creating some profoundly delusional and detached-from-reality characters who believe themselves infallible and fit to help others who have their shit way more in order. In day to day life I just smile politely and nod, go with their flow, and leave as soon as possible, but online it's really difficult to find the grace of restraint. When a party lacks this restraint - especially online - argument breaks out of "I'm right and you're wrong, here's why" and "You're an idiot and you're wrong, here's why!"

Why are so many people like this? They just harden themselves up into psychological rocks! Is it just the natural state of the ego to see itself as a master of its life? Are these people husks of pride because of this attitude, or were they already in this state and act as a master to cope? Is it because when you speak, you cannot listen, and therefore avoid any chance of self reflection? What the fuck is so wrong with considering oneself to be a student first & foremost?

How do you deal with these people? How do you guard yourself against becoming one? Do you know of any friendly way of giving these people a reality checkT without just pushing them into their defensive turtleshell of bullshit-conceit?

Most important of all - imo - in matters of the occult, how do you know when you speak, and when you listen to someone of a different opinion?

This is a very interesting argument, although I'm not sure if it's 'common for people in dismal living situation .... etc'. But I kinda think I know where you're coming from. Maybe it's a need for validation. I frequently meet people that have just gotten interested in Witchcraft and many of them claim to have a grandmother or great grandmother that was a witch. It's highly unlikely but I see no reason to contradict them. Many years ago I worked with someone that I frequently disagreed with on technical issues but I used to listen politely and consider what he was saying before responding. But he would get very upset that I didn't respond to him as soon as he'd stopped talking. Maybe we can't win ....

 

[Xenophon]

This is a very interesting argument, although I'm not sure if it's 'common for people in dismal living situation .... etc'. But I kinda think I know where you're coming from. Maybe it's a need for validation. I frequently meet people that have just gotten interested in Witchcraft and many of them claim to have a grandmother or great grandmother that was a witch. It's highly unlikely but I see no reason to contradict them. Many years ago I worked with someone that I frequently disagreed with on technical issues but I used to listen politely and consider what he was saying before responding. But he would get very upset that I didn't respond to him as soon as he'd stopped talking. Maybe we can't win ....

I call folks like that time-vampires. They believe they are trying solve problems (personal, technical, what have you), but the entire thrust of their communication is keeping a steady flow of attention directed their way. In effect, you wind up being held hostage.

I rather sucpect that it was with such ones in mind that the Rg Veda says pity can be a vice.

 

[Konsciencia]

I know, people are against each other's throats. One thing for sure, it is not the wars between Ukraine and Russia, Israel and Palestine. The bigger war it's between ourselves. Unfortunately, there is no decent way to have a conversation with someone without criticizing his/hers opinions.

 

[David Wilson-Steer]

I call folks like that time-vampires. They believe they are trying solve problems (personal, technical, what have you), but the entire thrust of their communication is keeping a steady flow of attention directed their way. In effect, you wind up being held hostage.

I rather sucpect that it was with such ones in mind that the Rg Veda says pity can be a vice.

'Time Vampires', I like that. And I think you're right about the Rig Veda ... often helping people doesn't help them. There's an old statistic in psychotherapy that 80% of the people that come to you for therapy don't actually want to be healed that just want to validate their sense of themselves. That's okay. They keep coming back just to talk and pay you for the privilege.

Post automatically merged: Friday at 12:55 AM

I know, people are against each other's throats. One thing for sure, it is not the wars between Ukraine and Russia, Israel and Palestine. The bigger war it's between ourselves. Unfortunately, there is no decent way to have a conversation with someone without criticizing his/hers opinions.

My Adept mentor pointed out to me that my sarcasm towards people was a projection of my self-destructive nature. I should have realised, after all, Freud said "A joke is a disguised attack". I resolved to nevermore just say the first thing that came to mind but, instead, whenever someone said something to me I would clench my jaw and really think about how I was going to reply. And I couldn't simply reply with a positive statement 'cos I might not mean it. So I had to make it a positive & nurturing statement. "Yes, I like your new hat, it makes you look happy and fun to be with." And if I couldn't think of anything nurturing I would keep my mouth shut and not reply. I had to do this consciously for about six months and then it became second nature .... the outcome, for me, was that I changed. I stopped being self-destructive and everything started going well for me. It was the best lesson I ever learned.

 

[Xenophon]

'Time Vampires', I like that. And I think you're right about the Rig Veda ... often helping people doesn't help them. There's an old statistic in psychotherapy that 80% of the people that come to you for therapy don't actually want to be healed that just want to validate their sense of themselves. That's okay. They keep coming back just to talk and pay you for the privilege.

Post automatically merged: Friday at 12:55 AM

My Adept mentor pointed out to me that my sarcasm towards people was a projection of my self-destructive nature. I should have realised, after all, Freud said "A joke is a disguised attack". I resolved to nevermore just say the first thing that came to mind but, instead, whenever someone said something to me I would clench my jaw and really think about how I was going to reply. And I couldn't simply reply with a positive statement 'cos I might not mean it. So I had to make it a positive & nurturing statement. "Yes, I like your new hat, it makes you look happy and fun to be with." And if I couldn't think of anything nurturing I would keep my mouth shut and not reply. I had to do this consciously for about six months and then it became second nature .... the outcome, for me, was that I changed. I stopped being self-destructive and everything started going well for me. It was the best lesson I ever learned.

This sounds like a valuable form of self-discipline in two ways: 1) being able to hold back the negative comment then, 2) after positive comments become second nature, realizing you do not necessarily mean them. Kind of like Buddhism's "compassion"---I am showing this as a way of reducing my egoism, not because I like you. That was the one thing I liked about Japan: the people there have weaponized politeness. It's a distancing mechanism, emotional aikido.

 

[djcullgirl]

he found an avocation as a aggravation-grinder.

What a beautiful combination of words


my 2 cents (worth barely half a cent on todays market im afraid)

"am i becoming that which i despise? is my distaste for this behaviour an indication of something hidden in my own behaviours, some kind of mirroring, that i need to adjust" is a common struggle in my head. I think the best thing to reduce the chance of these things coming true is knowledge. Be aware of, examine, revaluate and reevaluate all beliefs, be ready to shed ones that dont fit, and try to acquire as broad a perspective on everything your mind hones in on, and an awareness of that which it does not. i recently started to understand i was raised by a narcissist, and that put a whole new perspective on so many things. It also brought an extra awareness to patterns of disassociation and avoidance type behaviours...


i get pretty lost on my trian of though but i feel this is releveant

ive been thinking alot about systems of control and how our society is designed to keep pacified, and one of the ways is to keep us in fight or flight all the fucking time. When you're in that state , your subconcious will find a way to "fight or flight" whatever it can.


I kind of find it the opposite, in person i have trouble controlling my reactions to things but online i just "lol bye"

Post automatically merged: Yesterday at 8:51 AM

In some instances, when a person has gone so far that they encompass truly active/acausal presences, I would call those people "masters" but only after meeting them for myself and acknowledging to others that this is a person who is worth listening to.
considering.

"Authority can only be earned, not taken" or something like that

Post automatically merged: Yesterday at 8:56 AM

and frankly, OP, i see you getting in to it with people, and kinda come off as a bit of a dick. As you did the first time we interacted.

nothing personal, indeed it is out of respect i bring this to your attention. sorry i don't have much advice.. have you tried just not?? lol

Post automatically merged: Yesterday at 9:01 AM

My Adept mentor pointed out to me that my sarcasm towards people was a projection of my self-destructive nature. I should have realised, after all, Freud said "A joke is a disguised attack". I resolved to nevermore just say the first thing that came to mind but, instead, whenever someone said something to me I would clench my jaw and really think about how I was going to reply. And I couldn't simply reply with a positive statement 'cos I might not mean it. So I had to make it a positive & nurturing statement. "Yes, I like your new hat, it makes you look happy and fun to be with." And if I couldn't think of anything nurturing I would keep my mouth shut and not reply. I had to do this consciously for about six months and then it became second nature .... the outcome, for me, was that I changed. I stopped being self-destructive and everything started going well for me. It was the best lesson I ever learned.

ugh i love this so much <3

silently deletes previous comment towards op whistles casually

haha on that note....

I call folks like that time-vampires. They believe they are trying solve problems (personal, technical, what have you), but the entire thrust of their communication is keeping a steady flow of attention directed their way. In effect, you wind up being held hostage.

I rather sucpect that it was with such ones in mind that the Rg Veda says pity can be a vice.

haha i didnt realize it when i first started responding to this thread, but i was in already in a bit of a spiraling, asking myself if i'm doing what youre describing