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Who 'gets' Agrippa?

tranmut3

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I'm rather struggling to 'get' Agrippa. I recently got Erik Purdue's new translation of Agrippa's 3 books, having never read Agrippa at all before. For background, i've been working Josephine Mccarthy's Quaeria system for a couple of years, and I'm quite familiar with western hermetic qabalistic magic, Egyptian magic, the lemegaton etc. But The 3 books, a lot of the time, seems... just... nonsense. It seems almost sacriligious to say.
The thing that is helping is the marvellous 'Esoterica' youtube channel, where Justin Sledge is running a weekly look at Agrippa's life, philosphy and works, and its fascinating.
And I'm wondering, does anyone know of any 'guide to Agrippa' books out there, commentaries on the 3 books, or something of that sort? Or modern systems based around Agrippa? I've looked and there's almost nothing at al, at least in English.
 

SkullTraill

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What are you not getting? Agrippa is literally just hermetic, kabbalistic elemental + planetary magick study notes. It is not a "system" or "order" in the same way that quaeria/GD is. It is essentially just reference material and notes. Every English book on Agrippa is basically a "guide to agrippa". It is just a bunch of notes, statements, guides, tutorials etc. It is not meant to be a "course" that should be followed.

I view it as a refernce source.
 

stalkinghyena

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I'm rather struggling to 'get' Agrippa.

My take, influenced by my studies and insights, is that to "get Agrippa" you need to understand the progression of what he was trying to teach.
First you need to understand the cosmology of his day, namely that there are "three worlds". Book 1 is about the sublunary world, the world beneath the sphere of the Moon, or world of the senses and physical things. Book 2 covers the world of the stars and their rays or influences and what to do with them. Book 3 covers the spiritual world that exalts the magician to knowledge of the Divine and union with this power. To become a Magus, you must master three things outlined in the The Three Books:

1. Mastery of the powers of the natural world. You can call it "eye of newt, toe of frog" magic."
2. Mastery of the powers of the celestial or astral world - meaning, the influences of the stars upon this world. The ability to work with spirits, make talismans, do astrology, etc.
3. Mastery of the spiritual world through the rites and ceremonies of religion, especially Kabbalah, and bolstered by the powers of the prior two worlds. Now you're Jesus!

And I'm wondering, does anyone know of any 'guide to Agrippa' books out there, commentaries on the 3 books, or something of that sort?
Donald Tyson's notes in his republication of the JF version of the Three Books can still be useful. As I have heard Purdue point out in a podcast with Chris Brennan, Tyson does make some errors with regards to the astrology. One case is his misunderstanding of the term "perfections" in relation to planetary movements. However, the appendices in Tyson's edition have a lot of useful things.

As far as a break down and commentary of Agrippa, I haven't seen anything yet in English either. The most important thing to remember about the Three Books is that is an attempt to bring all occultism up to his time into a synthesis that somehow jives with Christian theology. This follows a perspective with the movement of perennialism of the day that held that the truest approach to the realization of Christianity was through Magic.

But The 3 books, a lot of the time, seems... just... nonsense.
Yes, a lot of his references, in particular, Pliny the Elder, come off as sounding like silly wive's tales. I myself have a hard time believing that a soldier like Agrippa would think that fire and swords could not kill a wolf, but that if you throw a rock at it, it will die from a festering wound. The way I take it is that he uses these examples in two senses.
On the one hand, they demonstrate his learning, although Purdue and Sledge point out that a lot what is in his books are plagiarized - but in his day, this wasn't considered a problem. The other sense is that he presenting parables by using these examples in a manner one might find in alchemical texts. In the case of the wolf, as a symbol of Mars, you can't defeat the force of Mars with Mars, but Saturn will defeat it through slow decay as the two malefics are often opposed.


Justin Sledge is running a weekly look at Agrippa's life, philosphy and works,
I just finished episode 4 this morning, and I really appreciate what Sledge is doing. Some of the biographical info in #1 threw me off a bit, but I have caught Sledge making some little errors like confusing names, or telling a story wrong here or there - but he's trying to get it all out and this is a lot of detail to cover. Anyways, none of that matters - someone is finally attacking this subject as broadly as can be done.

The only bio I can find on Agrippa that even tries to explore the depth of the man prior to Sledge is Henry Morley's Life, which I uploaded some time ago. It was written mid 19th century but I enjoyed reading it, though for every answer I have a question. Tyson dismissed some of his ideas as "conjecture" - but I bite my tongue.


It is not meant to be a "course" that should be followed.
I agree certainly in the modern sense. I think people in his day would have viewed it as a philosophical guide to working with the materials they already had at hand. There were definitely things he could not say and instructions he could not give, so maybe a point of entry for the university student who was following a similar course as he did. I honestly think it is a basket of breadcrumbs for people working in the shadows, some of whom he may been the front man for.

I think it would be really helpful is someone would translate his Opera, which is a collection of his letters still in Latin. These are referred to a lot in Morley and the likes of Yates. I have it in PDF but it is printed in difficult text and is a strain on the eyes.
 

SkullTraill

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philosophical guide to working with the materials they already had at hand
Really though? Like a course, or self-contained system similar to quaeria? I have to say I disagree with that.

point of entry for the university student
Exactly, I see it as more of a textbook (or as close to it for the time).

That's why I say there is nothing to "get" if you're looking for a deeper cohesive narrative. It can be read at face value, and useful information gleaned from it just like a text book in modern times.

Don't you agree with that?

I think it would be really helpful is someone would translate his Opera, which is a collection of his letters still in Latin. These are referred to a lot in Morley and the likes of Yates. I have it in PDF but it is printed in difficult text and is a strain on the eyes.
Hmmm... sounds like something for the transcription project (I have really slacked on this, I'll definitely get this going again if it could work for this as well - will PM).
 

Wintruz

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I'm rather struggling to 'get' Agrippa. I recently got Erik Purdue's new translation of Agrippa's 3 books, having never read Agrippa at all before. For background, i've been working Josephine Mccarthy's Quaeria system for a couple of years, and I'm quite familiar with western hermetic qabalistic magic, Egyptian magic, the lemegaton etc. But The 3 books, a lot of the time, seems... just... nonsense. It seems almost sacriligious to say.
The thing that is helping is the marvellous 'Esoterica' youtube channel, where Justin Sledge is running a weekly look at Agrippa's life, philosphy and works, and its fascinating.
And I'm wondering, does anyone know of any 'guide to Agrippa' books out there, commentaries on the 3 books, or something of that sort? Or modern systems based around Agrippa? I've looked and there's almost nothing at al, at least in English.
Agrippa attempted to gather all that was written about the occult arts within his lifetime. De Occulta Philosophia is, then, necessarily a mixed bag. Alongside sensationalist accounts of werewolves and witches stealing limbs from corpses, are sublime, unattributed references to the Neoplatonic magic of Ficino and Pico. In places where Agrippa quotes directly from Pico's 900 Theses, it's clear that he doesn't really understand the allegorical language which Pico was using. Even in the short space between the Florentines and Agrippa, the interpretation had died with its authors.

Although Agrippa writes about things he doesn't understand, it does seem exceptionally likely that he was initiated into the Christian Hermeticism of Lodovico Lazzarelli while he was in Italy. Woulter Hanegraaff has written a great deal about this and shows the references which Agrippa makes to this secret tradition in De Occulta Philosophia. It would be impossible to reconstruct that tradition from Agrippa's writings though.
 

Khoren_

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Are y'all basically saying that the three books are basically Agrippa's 777
 

Xenophon

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I'm rather struggling to 'get' Agrippa. I recently got Erik Purdue's new translation of Agrippa's 3 books, having never read Agrippa at all before. For background, i've been working Josephine Mccarthy's Quaeria system for a couple of years, and I'm quite familiar with western hermetic qabalistic magic, Egyptian magic, the lemegaton etc. But The 3 books, a lot of the time, seems... just... nonsense. It seems almost sacriligious to say.
The thing that is helping is the marvellous 'Esoterica' youtube channel, where Justin Sledge is running a weekly look at Agrippa's life, philosphy and works, and its fascinating.
And I'm wondering, does anyone know of any 'guide to Agrippa' books out there, commentaries on the 3 books, or something of that sort? Or modern systems based around Agrippa? I've looked and there's almost nothing at al, at least in English.

Are y'all basically saying that the three books are basically Agrippa's 777
@Khoren: I'd say they are more than that. But they are a compilation for the practitioner who has some considerable training and has some notions of what he wants to be doing. So, to that degree, the comparison holds.
 

Xingtian

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Best to have a decent background in Aristotle, Plato, Ptolemy, Macrobius, etc before tackling Agrippa. Most modern occultists don’t seem to bother with that anymore and the result is… gestures vaguely

For a crash course, or at least a guide to further reading, CS Lewis’ little book The Discarded Image is quite good.
 

stalkinghyena

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Really though? Like a course, or self-contained system similar to quaeria?
No, nothing like that. I figure the Three Books could give at least give a student of the time a more "permissive" theological context and direction. As an anti-scholastic, Agrippa probably hoped his work would subvert the 16th century learning system. He would probably think most modern systems that developed out of his work to be damnable and profane, though maybe he would be flattered at the same time. Idk. Like many historical magicians, he was man of paradox and contradiction mixed in with his grand vision.

That's why I say there is nothing to "get" if you're looking for a deeper cohesive narrative. It can be read at face value, and useful information gleaned from it just like a text book in modern times.

Don't you agree with that?
Speaking only for myself, yes, I have taken it as just another reference to be compared to later approaches and their correspondences. This was set against what system I had already learned, so Agrippa was more of augmentation.
At some point I found I could "read between the lines" in an esoteric manner - there is a certain way that ideas in the text are linked, and a certain way he expressed some things that appeal to me suggestively. I can say the same of Levi and others. The expressions yield ideas which have magical energy for me, but I am certain the effects are idiosyncratic enough that I leave the "narrative" to the historians.

Best to have a decent background in Aristotle, Plato, Ptolemy, Macrobius, etc before tackling Agrippa.
I have actually worked in reverse of this, lol. It was because I encountered your cited figures and others in texts like the Three Books that I sought out the sources for myself.

Most modern occultists don’t seem to bother with that anymore and the result is… gestures vaguely
There was a time when I felt it got in the way of just doing magic. But as my work evolved, my questions grew and I became irritated enough to seek meaningful answers. Still not done. Maybe never.

systems based around Agrippa?
Later in the day I recalled the old Fourth Book of Occult Philosophy which does have "practical application" in it, but the ultimate historical decision is that it was not written by Agrippa.
Then there is Francis Barrett's The Magus which has been decried as pure plagiarism of Agrippa, though Alison Butler pointed to the fact that it was one of the first of its kind as a popular manual available to the general public. The most noteworthy thing is that Barret leaves an advertisement in his book where he offers to teach anyone who shows up at his house on a certain day.
 
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