psychedelics?

[Lemongrass00]

it's still a very deeply embedded value in that culture, and they're certainly trying to spread it to the rest of the world)

Cool? Saying something is an American value doesn’t negate it, I still agree with it.

 

[pixel_fortune]

Okay, well, maybe break it down a bit into something that is easier for me to understand - like, why does not earning something stop it from benefiting you?

If I'm diabetic, and I get given free insulin without doing anything to earn it, that insulin will still save my life, it still has benefited me. I'm assuming you agree with that.

So why is an insight gained via psychedelics different? (I mean, an insight is different from insulin in a million ways, but specifically why is the relationship of earning-to-benefitting different?)

Post automatically merged: Jan 4, 2024

(this is what I meant about saying it's an American value. When something is a bedrock value that's not universally shared, other people won't understand it. Like if someone tells me murdee is bad "because the Bible says so" "because it's in the US Constitution" etc - those are not reasons I can understand or care about

I need them to tell me about why murder is harmful (to others and possibly to myself) - or explain why it's helpful to treat the Constitution as an important document

So "it isn't earned" isn't a final value for a lot of people outside America - you need to explain why it matters that it isn't earned

Post automatically merged: Jan 4, 2024

(I mean you don't "need" to do anything. But if you want us to understand your position and potentially agree with it)

 

[Lemongrass00]

like, why does not earning something stop it from benefiting you?

Because your consciousness may not be ready to handle what you experience, because the person has never disciplined their mind and skipped straight into taking psychedelics, that’s why it literally can drive people crazy, it’s stepping into the UFC without knowing how to throw a punch.

If I'm diabetic, and I get given free insulin without doing anything to earn it, that insulin will still save my life, it still has benefited me. I'm assuming you agree with that.

This isn’t really a fair comparison I’m not implying that medical necessities shouldn’t be taken, lol.

So why is an insight gained via psychedelics different? (I mean, an insight is different from insulin in a million ways, but specifically why is the relationship of earning-to-benefitting different?)

Earning not in the sense of earning a job, but of preparation, you will not be able to sustain any “revelations” you see long term and in most cases have no idea what they mean, or have a drastically negative and damaging experience and lack resilience or knowledge to handle it.

 

[pixel_fortune]

you will not be able to sustain any “revelations” you see long term and in most cases have no idea what they mean,

That makes sense, I think the word "earn" is what confused me, because it sounds like "you don't deserve them" but you mean something more like "you haven't adequately prepared for them"

Having taken psychedelics a fair bit recreationally, no spiritual intent (and therefore been around other people who've taken them), they do pretty reliably generate one insight that sticks with people, which is just "it is not that hard for your senses to lie to you"

And that's an entry-level insight (which is probably why it sticks) but it can be the foot in the door. From there, a lot of other practices and insights become at least possible

Post automatically merged: Jan 4, 2024

In a more mundane version of it, you don't see many people who've taken psychedelics doing that neurotypical thing of "I remember x and there's no possible way I could be wrong about what I remember, if I remember it, it happened, end of story"

Lots of people who've never taken psychedelics know better than that (they might have just read the science on memory) but psychedelics are one way to get there

 

[Romolo]

My approach with psychedelics is the same as with casinos: if you have made even a the slightest minimal gain, it is time to leave/go/run.

For me, that gain has been the insight that psychedelics operate like the Droste effect / mise en anime.

They make you believe you discovered something new, but that thing is actually already contained outside the frame, in “the Real world”.

At the same time (paradoxically), understanding goes through experience, so go for it kids. Just remember:

 

[Robert Ramsay]

I can never forget the story of the guy who, every time he took LSD, discovered the secret of the Universe, but was too wasted to communicate it. One day, he made an Herculean effort, and wrote it down.

When he came down, he found that what he'd written was "a strong smell of petrol pervades throughout"

 

[HoldAll]

Same here. Long ago, when I still smoked weed (only on weekends for a couple of years), I always had the most beautiflul dreams but would forget them as soon as I woke up. The most striking experience was when I was absolutely amazed by the colour of a postbox near our house, and for years I would have a brief flashback to that night whenever I passed it. Can't say I learned anything from that.

 

[Konsciencia]

I tried the gummy Mushrooms recently. They did something, but not what I was expecting. Wasted my time and money.

 

[Misty Mystic]

No, I don't.

I know, that wise ussage of it could give some boost.
But I beleve I don't need any boost which could be achieved by such an illegal activities. In my case it doesn't pay

 

[Ancient]

I tried the gummy Mushrooms recently. They did something, but not what I was expecting. Wasted my time and money.

Some medications can interfere with the effects of psychedelics pretty heavily. Benzodiazepines, sedatives, and antipsychotics are particularly effective at this. Hell, even a few drinks can have a noticeable effect. I suspect this was the reason you didn't get the experience you were looking for. Of course, the potency of mushrooms can vary greatly; even from mushroom to mushroom within the same grow cycle.

Anyone considering psychedelics, please do some research and ensure that herbs or medications you take will not cause dangerous potentiation or interactions with the drug. Erowid (detailed information regarding specific chemicals, drugs, plants, and pharmaceuticals) and Bluelight (harm reduction forum - by the users, for the users) are two excellent websites to check first.


Psychedelics are becoming more accepted in Canada, which I support wholeheartedly. There are even quasi-legal shops popping up coast to coast boldly selling everything from mescaline cacti to DMT. The federal government still has the substances scheduled (with a growing list of exceptions for research and medical use) but cities are renewing their business licenses and the police are far more concerned about rampant black market opiate operations and the deaths they create. There are a number of facilities that now offer psychedelic-assisted psychological therapy after a doctor's referral. Many middle-aged people are seeing great results with the therapy, and young folks have never had so much fun on the weekends without beer.

 

[Xenophon]

This is a very American sentiment (apologies if you're not American - it's still a very deeply embedded value in that culture, and they're certainly trying to spread it to the rest of the world, with some regrettable success)

To be specific, US government propaganda says "actually it's good that the government does nothing to help or support you, because it wouldn't have any value if you didn't earn it via your own self-lifted bootstraps, and anyway that sounds like communism"

Now, I am absolutely certain that I have picked up some of the cultural propaganda from my own country - everyone does it. But one of the good things about meeting people from different countries is you start to spot, "this seems to be a pretty universal human value" and "huh, people from other countries don't think Kim Jong Il is the best guy ever? Maybe I should spend some time analysing that value"

(I'm not comparing the level of cultural indoctrination in the US or Australia to North Korea by the way, it's just an easy reference. But I mean, there's a reason they don't let people leave: it's dangerous to meet people who grew up with different indoctrination, because we can contrast and compare)

I can never forget the story of the guy who, every time he took LSD, discovered the secret of the Universe, but was too wasted to communicate it. One day, he made an Herculean effort, and wrote it down.

When he came down, he found that what he'd written was "a strong smell of petrol pervades throughout"

I had a similar experience involving a dissertation on "G.H. Mead's Haptic Theory of Universals" and a fifth of Jose Cuervo. Brilliant---solarian scintillating!---insights alternated with shots 'n salt 'n lime. During the night, however, the agave spirits swapped out changeling paragraphs for my genius-begotten prose. Morning found me with an insipid pile of intellectual SIDS.

Post automatically merged: Feb 4, 2024

This is a very American sentiment (apologies if you're not American - it's still a very deeply embedded value in that culture, and they're certainly trying to spread it to the rest of the world, with some regrettable success)

To be specific, US government propaganda says "actually it's good that the government does nothing to help or support you, because it wouldn't have any value if you didn't earn it via your own self-lifted bootstraps, and anyway that sounds like communism"

Now, I am absolutely certain that I have picked up some of the cultural propaganda from my own country - everyone does it. But one of the good things about meeting people from different countries is you start to spot, "this seems to be a pretty universal human value" and "huh, people from other countries don't think Kim Jong Il is the best guy ever? Maybe I should spend some time analysing that value"

(I'm not comparing the level of cultural indoctrination in the US or Australia to North Korea by the way, it's just an easy reference. But I mean, there's a reason they don't let people leave: it's dangerous to meet people who grew up with different indoctrination, because we can contrast and compare)

2019-2022, entitlement spending (Social Security, Medicare, Medicaid, Unemployment) in the U.S. averaged 60% of the national budget.(federalsafetynet.com) By contrast, defense was about 20%, education around 2%. I can't speak for your expectations, but that's a WHOLE LOT of "nothing" you're dismissing there. And this leaves aside the funds devoted to uninvited guests crashing the border.

Feel free to criticize the Yank gummermint---gods know I do. Have the minimal decency, however, not to lie through your teeth.

 

[pixel_fortune]

Have the minimal decency, however, not to lie through your teeth.

Do you think my "actually it's good that the government does nothing to help or support you, because it wouldn't have any value if you didn't earn it via your own self-lifted bootstraps, and anyway that sounds like communism" line was me attributing a direct quote to a government budget press conference?

It's hyperbolic summary of an attitude, and I stand by it. (If you re-read, you will see I was describing government MESSAGING, not government budget allocation.) I'm not saying the US government doesn't support its citizens at all - I'm saying they don't WANT to, and their propaganda is aimed at making it easier to cut the support they currently give.

As an aside, if I had been talking about the actual budget (which I wasn't), raw dollars is a bad measure (in any country) because there's corruption, even in countries that don't have a reputation for being corrupt. In Australia, money spent on say, providing federal housing, is really just a way to siphon money from taxpayers to property developers, very little ends up easing the cost of living of citizens. So someone saying "we spend $X on housing" would not be providing evidence of social welfare spending. Money that goes from taxpayers to health insurance companies does not count as money spent supporting citizen's health. etc etc.

Post automatically merged: Feb 4, 2024

I just remembered Australia gave the majority of its "save the great barrier reef" funding to a consulting company who spent the entire funds writing some sort of report, which the government refused to publish or say what the result is. (from memory, the company was owned by the brother of a sitting member of parliament). But as a line item, sure we spent a TONNE of money trying to save the great barrier reef. How dare anyone claim we're not putting enough money towards saving the reef!

 

[Xenophon]

Do you think my "actually it's good that the government does nothing to help or support you, because it wouldn't have any value if you didn't earn it via your own self-lifted bootstraps, and anyway that sounds like communism" line was me attributing a direct quote to a government budget press conference?

It's hyperbolic summary of an attitude, and I stand by it. (If you re-read, you will see I was describing government MESSAGING, not government budget allocation.) I'm not saying the US government doesn't support its citizens at all - I'm saying they don't WANT to, and their propaganda is aimed at making it easier to cut the support they currently give.

As an aside, if I had been talking about the actual budget (which I wasn't), raw dollars is a bad measure (in any country) because there's corruption, even in countries that don't have a reputation for being corrupt. In Australia, money spent on say, providing federal housing, is really just a way to siphon money from taxpayers to property developers, very little ends up easing the cost of living of citizens. So someone saying "we spend $X on housing" would not be providing evidence of social welfare spending. Money that goes from taxpayers to health insurance companies does not count as money spent supporting citizen's health. etc etc.

Post automatically merged: Feb 4, 2024

I just remembered Australia gave the majority of its "save the great barrier reef" funding to a consulting company who spent the entire funds writing some sort of report, which the government refused to publish or say what the result is. (from memory, the company was owned by the brother of a sitting member of parliament). But as a line item, sure we spent a TONNE of money trying to save the great barrier reef. How dare anyone claim we're not putting enough money towards saving the reef!

So... you shift from a discussion of government's deeds and policies to a discussion of your suspicions of what their surreptitious attitudes might be? With any due respect, I refuse the enter THAT hall of mirrors. Lovecraft in the round (or whatever alternative geometry your phancy doth dictate.)

 

[pixel_fortune]

Here's an interesting question:

Someone says something on the internet that you believe to be wrong.

What makes you decide between "this person is ill-informed, jumping to conclusions, has faulty logic, has a bias that prevents them from seeing the topic accurately" etc etc

and "this person is lying through their teeth - they do not actually believe what they're saying; they are setting out to deliberately deceive"

You went with the scenario that I secretly know the truth of the US economic system, but that, in full awareness, i said something that I knew to be a lie

What do you reckon my motive would be, here on this forum post read by about 7 people? Do you think it's really important to me that this handful of strangers hold the "right" opinions on US welfare policy, such that I would craft a lie to try and trick them? Does that truly seem more plausible to you than "she just gave her honest opinion, and it's a dumb opinion"?

 

[Xenophon]

Here's an interesting question:

Someone says something on the internet that you believe to be wrong.

What makes you decide between "this person is ill-informed, jumping to conclusions, has faulty logic, has a bias that prevents them from seeing the topic accurately" etc etc

and "this person is lying through their teeth - they do not actually believe what they're saying; they are setting out to deliberately deceive"

You went with the scenario that I secretly know the truth of the US economic system, but that, in full awareness, i said something that I knew to be a lie

What do you reckon my motive would be, here on this forum post read by about 7 people? Do you think it's really important to me that this handful of strangers hold the "right" opinions on US welfare policy, such that I would craft a lie to try and trick them? Does that truly seem more plausible to you than "she just gave her honest opinion, and it's a dumb opinion"?

Don't ask me. It's clearly important enough for you to hiss n' spit at some length right now. Go back and brood some more.

 

[Celestia]

I take the stance that they are very useful tools for dissolving the ego, but they need to be respected. And in line with what some others have said, there really needs to be significant study and work done beforehand to prepare for their use too. I honestly think that (similar to how some civilizations have treated them in the past), they may again be treated as sacraments one day.

I agree that it is sort of a "cheat code", and using that cheat code without doing any study or work can potentially diminish their value or even lead to negative outcomes. I think that with the genuinely responsible combination of study, work, preparation, and the use of the substance itself, it can act as a catalyst, rather than a replacement for spiritual work, self-discovery, or other methods of transcending the ego.

I truly think there is immense value there, as medicine is now discovering. Major medical institutions are now doing research on mushrooms and DMT in particular. Some people are simply so "stuck", that the substances can really help "unstick" them from the ego, their past, their trauma, their "self" structures. But with these substances, the experience is all temporary anyway, in a sense. The substances dissolve the ego for a period of time, and then they wear off. They can give the individual a quick glance and window into seeing beyond the ego. This leaves them with a lasting memory of that experience, but it was a temporary experience. That can be enough to jumpstart people towards doing the work that does not involve substances to continue to see beyond the ego, and to have a better idea of what they're trying to do. Sometimes.

In a world where everyone has very thick egos, that are heavily, heavily programmed, I think we should take anything we can get in terms of tools and methods to assist humanity in transcending the ego. I 100% agree that it's no substitute for reaching Nirvana, or even partial ego dissolution, without the other work, practices, and methods. But when combined in a well-planned, prudent way with genuine study and practice, I think it can absolutely enhance a person's progress. The problem is of course, that people tend to lean on them, overuse them, without planning, in all the least-optimal ways, and then on top of all that, sometimes develop a new spiritual ego afterwards where they may even think they are now "enlightened" because they used a substance a number of times. Then again, some DMT experiences can be so powerful that they may allow users to reach something similar to Enlightenment. But at the same time, if there's no way to make sense of it or integrate it, what does it all do for the individual in the end?

I don't think we need to blame the substances, they're excellent tools in some cases. I think some of society's use and approach of/towards them is what needs to be adjusted. If we use them intelligently and with purpose, there's a lot of value to be had there.

 

[pixel_fortune]

at some length

The Pixel curse! all my posts are like ten paragraphs long. When I'm talking about something emotive, the length makes it look like a rant, even though it's literally just how I post all the time.

Anyway man, you can't call someone a liar and then be surprised they have a negative reaction. The cost of insulting someone is they usually have some sort of response to that insult. Surely you've encountered this phenomenon before. Causes having effects, that kind of thing.

 

[Vandheer]

Don't ask me. It's clearly important enough for you to hiss n' spit at some length right now. Go back and brood some more.

You ask her if water is wet, she will write down a 5 page essay, laws of Germany, and the entirety of Mahabarata in it.

 

[Xenophon]

Actually I am not at all surprised that open disdain calls forth hostility. Indeed, I'd be disappointed did it not. I recall years ago leaning in close to inspect a tiny tarantula down Mexico way. Feeling threatened, the li'l sac o' venom reared back on its hind legs and held up its forelegs like they wuz jaws. I reckon the same instinct is at work here in your reaction. With the same result. I shrug and mosey away.

Post automatically merged: Feb 5, 2024

You ask her if water is wet, she will write down a 5 page essay, laws of Germany, and the entirety of Mahabarata in it.

And all I wanted was a chaser for my double shot o' Wild Turkey

 

[Yazata]

Can we bring it back to the topic of psychedelica (and if there's more value in getting insights this way versus obtaining them via other ways).

Grumpy folks with too much time here it seems.