Magick, humanity and its "limitations"

[whimsicalwarlock]

I'm not an expert at all when it comes to magick and I am also not particularly eloquent so I will do my best to make my point so here goes,

In magick there seems to almost always be this sort of template thats in place that you have to follow, like theres always some "higher" form of dogma or rules to follow. when it comes to spirits, gods, etc, there's always this idea that the human always knows lesser than and anything in the spiritual world knows more than and you're always "lesser" than something.

Even on the left hand path, which seems to preach self empowerment and self liberation and such, theres still always this being "above" you that you have to learn from, this being possibly not being one who actually cares about humans or puts humans first, its always about bringing spiritual aspects of the god/goddess/spirit to the world, but when it comes to the basic human self its always coming across as being presented as flawed or inferior, hence the reason for the magickal work in the first place. I find this somewhat...brainwashing? or indoctrinating? There seems to be this pretense that you almost are required to accept that you are unrefined or flawed or in a state of imperfection.

Maybe this is just my own upbringing and perspective being brought up to me so I can deal with or deconstruct it, I don't know for sure.

Maybe I'm not making my point very well but its like in order to "gain" something, don't you first have to believe you don't have it to begin with? In order to get "better" don't you have to first believe you aren't good enough?

Its feeling sort of...imposing almost. Like theres an inherent flaw in most magickal systems, but I do acknowledge that perhaps I'm just looking at this from a flawed standpoint.

Am I making any sense at all?

I appreciate any insight or discussion on this.

 

[Beyond Everything]

In magick there seems to almost always be this sort of template thats in place that you have to follow, like theres always some "higher" form of dogma or rules to follow. when it comes to spirits, gods, etc, there's always this idea that the human always knows lesser than and anything in the spiritual world knows more than and you're always "lesser" than something.

Even on the left hand path, which seems to preach self empowerment and self liberation and such, theres still always this being "above" you that you have to learn from, this being possibly not being one who actually cares about humans or puts humans first, its always about bringing spiritual aspects of the god/goddess/spirit to the world, but when it comes to the basic human self its always coming across as being presented as flawed or inferior, hence the reason for the magickal work in the first place. I find this somewhat...brainwashing? or indoctrinating? There seems to be this pretense that you almost are required to accept that you are unrefined or flawed or in a state of imperfection.

A lot of religion and occultism involves egregores, which seek their own survival and expansion regardless of whether this is ultimately beneficial for humans.

Then there are actual forces out there which have a vested interest in preventing humans from evolving into higher beings. Keeping deep levels of subserviance in the human primate is paramount to them.

Obviously there is some overlap between the two in practice.

In my view religion shouldn't have anything to do with occult development. Yet you have occultists quoting their preferred religious texts as if those are 'authorities' and not dogmatic forms of control.

One of most important things in development is rooting out and extirpating all forms of subserviance and dependence. This isn't meant in some Ayn Rand way, but has to do with reclaiming very deep aspects of one's self. This has nothing to do with 'doing one's true will' or performing the bornless ritual or soaking in egregoric energies while declaring one's self a living god. A lot of this is uncharted, and for good reason, ie see above.

 

[whimsicalwarlock]

A lot of religion and occultism involves egregores, which seek their own survival and expansion regardless of whether this is ultimately beneficial for humans.

Then there are actual forces out there which have a vested interest in preventing humans from evolving into higher beings. Keeping deep levels of subserviance in the human primate is paramount to them.

Obviously there is some overlap between the two in practice.

In my view religion shouldn't have anything to do with occult development. Yet you have occultists quoting their preferred religious texts as if those are 'authorities' and not dogmatic forms of control.

One of most important things in development is rooting out and extirpating all forms of subserviance and dependence. This isn't meant in some Ayn Rand way, but has to do with reclaiming very deep aspects of one's self. This has nothing to do with 'doing one's true will' or performing the bornless ritual or soaking in egregoric energies while declaring one's self a living god. A lot of this is uncharted, and for good reason, ie see above.

I definitely agree that there's a lot of theoretical "mud" to "wade" through.
What have you found to be reliable and truly liberating or empowering? It seems like there is SO much out there masquerading as helpful or beneficial when "it" really just wants to use you as fuel or support to prop itself up. Its kind of overwhelming and very discouraging as it seems like the more you look the more you find. Its like there's actually so little out there that's truly helpful.

Chaos magick looks like it could be used to find one's way but its so unorthodox and there doesn't seem to be a defined way of doing it and the lack of reliable framework makes it feel very difficult to actually navigate successfully.
I appreciate your response.

 

[Firetree]

I'm not an expert at all when it comes to magick and I am also not particularly eloquent so I will do my best to make my point so here goes,

In magick there seems to almost always be this sort of template thats in place that you have to follow, like theres always some "higher" form of dogma or rules to follow. when it comes to spirits, gods, etc, there's always this idea that the human always knows lesser than and anything in the spiritual world knows more than and you're always "lesser" than something.

'Heavens' no ! Man has always been in the midpoint in the spiritual hierarchy ...'Great Chain of Being'

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around 'Man' insert spirits ; above but 'attached' invocation / theurgy . Below but 'attached' evocation / thaumaturgy .

Even on the left hand path, which seems to preach self empowerment and self liberation and such, theres still always this being "above" you that you have to learn from, this being possibly not being one who actually cares about humans or puts humans first, its always about bringing spiritual aspects of the god/goddess/spirit to the world, but when it comes to the basic human self its always coming across as being presented as flawed or inferior, hence the reason for the magickal work in the first place.

I contend that the spirit is not naturally flawed , but it can be influenced or clouded by conditioning and environment (ie incarnation process ) .

I find this somewhat...brainwashing? or indoctrinating? There seems to be this pretense that you almost are required to accept that you are unrefined or flawed or in a state of imperfection.

WEll, yes, somewhat .... unless you are .... 'beyond everything '

Maybe this is just my own upbringing and perspective being brought up to me so I can deal with or deconstruct it, I don't know for sure.

Maybe I'm not making my point very well but its like in order to "gain" something, don't you first have to believe you don't have it to begin with?

No as you can gain further understanding of what you are > leads to knowledge > (should ) lead to understanding ( knowing the implications and effects of your enacted knowledge > leads to wisdom ( knowing when and who and where to apply your knowledge with Understanding of results ) ( ... Hooray ! You just crossed the Abyss ! )

In order to get "better" don't you have to first believe you aren't good enough?

You can be 'good enough ' or you can 'get better ' ( from thinking you are good enough ) .

Good enough housing : keeps rain and weather off you and supplies water, air and waste disposal .

better ; designed to bring 'happiness' ; open spaces , exercise areas , kids playground, parks, hospital clinic etc .

Its feeling sort of...imposing almost. Like theres an inherent flaw in most magickal systems, but I do acknowledge that perhaps I'm just looking at this from a flawed standpoint.

Am I making any sense at all?

Yes . My view on it is ; every person has a field of limitation whose boundary that can not be crossed . However that boundary may be further out than you realize .... one 'failing ' , the other failing is thinking you can go beyond your actual boundary .

I appreciate any insight or discussion on this.

I hope this was insightful .

 

[Ohana]

Chaos magick looks like it could be used to find one's way but its so unorthodox and there doesn't seem to be a defined way of doing it and the lack of reliable framework makes it feel very difficult to actually navigate successfully.
I appreciate your response.

Stories could be another way. Don't have to believe in the deities but the actual stories could help.

Or whichever framework helps you understand the world most. Chaos Magick I think relies on sciencetific reasoning.

But could think about stories or what you like doing. Like if say you like making pottery could veiw it through making pottery and make a metaphor about using pottery as the framework to magic. Atleast thats what I think.

Could be wrong.

 

[Morell]

I'm not an expert at all when it comes to magick and I am also not particularly eloquent so I will do my best to make my point so here goes,

In magick there seems to almost always be this sort of template thats in place that you have to follow, like theres always some "higher" form of dogma or rules to follow. when it comes to spirits, gods, etc, there's always this idea that the human always knows lesser than and anything in the spiritual world knows more than and you're always "lesser" than something.

Even on the left hand path, which seems to preach self empowerment and self liberation and such, theres still always this being "above" you that you have to learn from, this being possibly not being one who actually cares about humans or puts humans first, its always about bringing spiritual aspects of the god/goddess/spirit to the world, but when it comes to the basic human self its always coming across as being presented as flawed or inferior, hence the reason for the magickal work in the first place. I find this somewhat...brainwashing? or indoctrinating? There seems to be this pretense that you almost are required to accept that you are unrefined or flawed or in a state of imperfection.

Maybe this is just my own upbringing and perspective being brought up to me so I can deal with or deconstruct it, I don't know for sure.

Maybe I'm not making my point very well but its like in order to "gain" something, don't you first have to believe you don't have it to begin with? In order to get "better" don't you have to first believe you aren't good enough?

Its feeling sort of...imposing almost. Like theres an inherent flaw in most magickal systems, but I do acknowledge that perhaps I'm just looking at this from a flawed standpoint.

Am I making any sense at all?

I appreciate any insight or discussion on this.

Good topic.

This mindset was created by Abrahamic religions with their "god always bigger" mentality. Also greatly supported by Roman Empire Christianity, where God's superiority was forced to become unquestionable as well as god's representation by pope to ensure control of masses.

So no, it's not only you, but it is control mechanism, to think that spirits are greater, smarter etc, than us. But... yeah, that cursed word... But we don't know that much about spiritual stuff, definitely way less than spirits. Sure, you can keep going trial and error until you learn everything on your own, but it is simply way more effective to learn from spirits, who know, even if it is with intention to develop your own knowledge, power and independence on the LHP.

That is why, even if we are all equal, we do call for spirits to learn from them. Because there are things to learn. Just like you learn from humans who mastered some skill.

 

[whimsicalwarlock]

Good topic.

This mindset was created by Abrahamic religions with their "god always bigger" mentality. Also greatly supported by Roman Empire Christianity, where God's superiority was forced to become unquestionable as well as god's representation by pope to ensure control of masses.

So no, it's not only you, but it is control mechanism, to think that spirits are greater, smarter etc, than us. But... yeah, that cursed word... But we don't know that much about spiritual stuff, definitely way less than spirits. Sure, you can keep going trial and error until you learn everything on your own, but it is simply way more effective to learn from spirits, who know, even if it is with intention to develop your own knowledge, power and independence on the LHP.

That is why, even if we are all equal, we do call for spirits to learn from them. Because there are things to learn. Just like you learn from humans who mastered some skill.

I've seen far too often the same issue among those who practice both paths, and among both seems to be the same issue; Depending on a spirit that has us on our knees, though the reasons for being so are different, it still presents the same problem, being on your knees in the first place.

Is there any path that doesn't require this? I imagine there is but I also imagine they're full of trial and error. Maybe there isn't. Maybe due to our nature we can't avoid it. I found it rather strange as I tried to dig through left and right hand paths to find both having practitioners subservient or submissive to a higher force; I kept running into the same question;

What about our divinity? What about our power?

It brought up other questions too, questions that made me uncomfortable. Are we unable to avoid this? Are we doomed to being "lesser"? Do we have no choice but to serve? As tacky or corny as it might be, it made me think of the "Gorr The God Butcher" character in the Thor: Love and Thunder movie, before he acquired the necrosword. The way he was emaciated, nearly dying of thirst, on his knees begging a fat overfed god that looked down on him as replaceable fodder, calling his and his daughters suffering insignificant because "there are always more followers/worshippers". It leaves a pit in my stomach to think we could be seen that way.

I suppose there's a possibility that it's unavoidable to go asking for external forces to influence our path, if that's the case then the questions arise,
1)How do we know to trust what we've been given?

and if we do determine that we can trust what we are given,

2)when and how do we determine that we are no longer needing the assistance of external forces?

 

[Morell]

You know, I have yet to find a good school, where teacher would obey instructions of student.

 

[whimsicalwarlock]

You know, I have yet to find a good school, where teacher would obey instructions of student.

I'm not sure of your meaning.

 

[Morell]

I'm not sure of your meaning.

Fair. I might have say way too little.

My point is that when we learn from someone, it seems to me to be natural tendency to put teacher on pedestal. Gurus of new age are quite an example of that. So learning can turn into worship, however it's not easy to learn other way than by learning from the teacher or by following and accepting his "rules" for a time to get what you need to get.

To your other question, if it is possible to fully evade worship... in this world it is very hard. Worship evolves naturaly. Someone said that fandoms (fans admiring fictional character or celebrity) are religions too and they are correct. It seems to be in our nature to form religious behavior.

To seek and pay proper attention to what is within us and to develop our independence is hard, but possible. However we do not live alone here and this society has some sort of hierarchy as well as struggles for power.

 

[Keldan]

The reason humans are “lesser” isn’t because we’re actually less, it’s because our lives are so short. So even if we practice every day, we’re still thousands and thousands of years behind other forces.

A lot of occult systems also lean hard on that deficiency story because it keeps people committed. Like “you’re asleep, so wake up,” “you’re impure, so purify yourself,” “you’re fragmented, so become whole,” “you’re weak, so empower yourself.” And that framing can be useful when it’s descriptive and temporary like if you don’t have this skill yet. But it turns toxic when it becomes your identity, when it makes you think “I’m lesser by nature.” You’re not lesser, you’re just behind in terms of practice and experience.

That’s honestly why I’m glad I didn’t follow any systems and instead built my own through my work and experience. Because in my experience, when you work with other forces, they don’t want you to bow and worship them, they want you to respect them. And if they actually care about you, they’ll cut the crap and be real with you. They’ll tell you straight up they don’t want your worship or kneeling, just respect.

My stance is basically that I’ll listen, I’ll verify, and I’ll keep my agency, and I can learn from these forces without worshiping them. That isn’t arrogance, it’s boundaries. I’m not on my knees when I work with other forces. And I don’t think I’m the only one who feels this way. It’s just different for me because my work is frequent with the spiritual and astral, I’m not skirting around the books.

 

[Beyond Everything]

I definitely agree that there's a lot of theoretical "mud" to "wade" through.

But it's not theory. What I'm talking about are real forces. I've had encounters with them that would simply not be believed

What have you found to be reliable and truly liberating or empowering? It seems like there is SO much out there masquerading as helpful or beneficial when "it" really just wants to use you as fuel or support to prop itself up. Its kind of overwhelming and very discouraging as it seems like the more you look the more you find. Its like there's actually so little out there that's truly helpful.

Time and time again I've seen occultists of all varieties blind to things. If they get one result and then other aspects of their life suffer, they are incapable of connecting the dots. And that's not even touching the broader situation of mankind, which is pretty bleak at large. Sometimes they will soak in 'mystical' states of consciousness that end up being esoteric opiates. There are so many copes and rationalizations people use to justify their disempowered situation. 'None are so enslaved as those who falsely believe they are free' was something Goethe got correct.

At the same time, one wants to instill power and confidence in their 'subconscious', so one needs to take this situation as not sad or scary, but as a spur to ultimate apotheosis.

Personally I had a highly unusual pathway (even though I do have experience with the more 'accepted' forms of occultism) it would be impossible to duplicate, not to mention creating my own ways.

Chaos magick looks like it could be used to find one's way but its so unorthodox and there doesn't seem to be a defined way of doing it and the lack of reliable framework makes it feel very difficult to actually navigate successfully.
I appreciate your response.

Sigilization is fine, and self-directed. Visualization for goals works very well, at least for some people. As far as self-development towards becoming a higher being, that is a much trickier and hidden path- however nothing is stopping someone from exploring meditation and energywork , without recourse to questionable forces.

They’ll tell you straight up they don’t want your worship or kneeling, just respect.

Why would a bodiless entity need respect? When I am out of body, I could give two shits about something so utterly unimportant to me.

 

[Morell]

Why would a bodiless entity need respect? When I am out of body, I could give two shits about something so utterly unimportant to me.

So you do not deserve to be respected either? Why would you need anyone's respect?

 

[Beyond Everything]

So you do not deserve to be respected either? Why would you need anyone's respect?

As I said, when I personally am out of body in my well-developed subtle body, I couldn't be bothered for an instant to be concerned about such things.

Are these bodiless entities so insecure they demand 'respect' from incarnated primates? Orrrrr, is something else going on here. An egregore would 'want' respect, as well as beings that want to position themselves above you, sometimes in a very sneaky fashion.

 

[Morell]

As I said, when I personally am out of body in my well-developed subtle body, I couldn't be bothered for an instant to be concerned about such things.

Are these bodiless entities so insecure they demand 'respect' from incarnated primates? Orrrrr, is something else going on here. An egregore would 'want' respect, as well as beings that want to position themselves above you, sometimes in a very sneaky fashion.

All I can say...
You live up to your name...

 

[Durward]

Yes, we are weak and stupid, and there are plenty of things that know more, have more power, and are superior.
We should be careful not to aggravate the many more powerful things in this world or beyond.

Another thing we humans do all the time, is Anthropomorphism, which is

the attribution of human traits, emotions, behaviors, and intentions to non-human entities...

We do this when we wonder what aliens visiting the planet might be doing or planning, what they feel or think. Perhaps the surgically removed colon and eyes that happened out here in the desert where I live is simply an alien Gordon Ramsey getting fresh ingredients for dinner?
We do this out in nature right before that bear rips you to shreds because you got too close to the cute cubs you are goo-goo'ing like baby talk.
We do this with farm animals, but mostly our pets. Yet they will eat your face if you die and nobody finds you.
We also assume, likely wrongly, that any egregore or entity should be concerned with our desires, thoughts, feelings, or goals... or that we have the power to force them to do so, or see things our way. Our ego and self-centered nature is pretty obvious, and humans are not some universal measure of good vs. evil. Fragile humans are laughably so far from rational, moral, ethical, or universally good, while thinking they are the top of the philosophic throne, or the food chain.
We even try to anthropomorphize our own gods/goddesses, and turn them into humans with human emotions, weaknesses, and concerns.

The last entity I dealt with obviously could care less what we think or want, and was simply trying to stir up emotions so it could feed off that energy, and it didn't give a flying f$ck what kind of emotional energy it was getting. Fear was simply the easiest one to cause in most humans.
Just thinking we can command or combat something like that still makes me laugh. Hold up a cross, or wave the sage, toss out a charm, a spell, or some talisman? Pffffttt, it doesn't even care what you believe in, or are doing with these things. It will still just grab you with cold ethereal claws by the spine and drag you across the floor while sucking up your terror up like a milkshake. There was no reasoning or negotiating with it, because you are prey, food, and you are not the top of that food chain. So, yes, we are so flawed and insane, weak and ignorant, that we should be humble when we approach anything we don't know.

So yeah, dealing with powers and forces that are obviously not natural human traits, or not some inherent quality that humans just naturally have, but other entities do have, is an obvious tier system where we are almost at the bottom of the pile, and yes we are ignorant, and foolish, in particular when compared to things that live much longer than we do and do have inherent qualities that include powers we wish for.

 

[Beyond Everything]

Yes, we are weak and stupid, and there are plenty of things that know more, have more power, and are superior.

Humans have more potential than these other things

We should be careful not to aggravate the many more powerful things in this world or beyond.

This sort of stance is not what you want to instill in the 'subconscious'

We do this when we wonder what aliens visiting the planet might be doing or planning,

They have to use subterfuge because they lack something humans potentially have.

I've dealt with them on the astral, and even on the physical (don't expect to be believed, but it is what it is). They can do extraordinary things, but they lack a spiritual connection to 'infinity'.

The last entity I dealt with obviously could care less what we think or want, and was simply trying to stir up emotions so it could feed off that energy, and it didn't give a flying f$ck what kind of emotional energy it was getting. Fear was simply the easiest one to cause in most humans.

Not a self-sustained entity. That doesn't bespeak of real power, but dependence.

Just thinking we can command or combat something like that still makes me laugh.

There are multiple ways to deal with something like that. It's not like you can't have mastery over what emotions you generate (everything is energy and all energy can be manipulated). And it's not like one can't simply psychically attack it, either.

So yeah, dealing with powers and forces that are obviously not natural human traits, or not some inherent quality that humans just naturally have, but other entities do have, is an obvious tier system where we are almost at the bottom of the pile, and yes we are ignorant, and foolish, in particular when compared to things that live much longer than we do and do have inherent qualities that include powers we wish for.

Humans can potentially transform their flesh and their subtle energy complex into something extraordinary- something higher than these other things.

 

[Durward]

Humans have more potential than these other things


This sort of stance is not what you want to instill in the 'subconscious'


They have to use subterfuge because they lack something humans potentially have.

I've dealt with them on the astral, and even on the physical (don't expect to be believed, but it is what it is). They can do extraordinary things, but they lack a spiritual connection to 'infinity'.


Not a self-sustained entity. That doesn't bespeak of real power, but dependence.


There are multiple ways to deal with something like that. It's not like you can't have mastery over what emotions you generate (everything is energy and all energy can be manipulated). And it's not like one can't simply psychically attack it, either.

Humans can potentially transform their flesh and their subtle energy complex into something extraordinary- something higher than these other things.

Every time I deal with someone spouting this sort of certainty, they usually don't have much to show for the confidence. So, as always, you do you and believe what you wish, but I'm not a fan.
Simply... prove it.

 

[Beyond Everything]

they usually don't have much to show for the confidence.

Well, I'm not shrinking in fear like you are. So that's one thing straight off.

The more humble you program yourself to be, the more you're going to disempower yourself.

 

[Durward]

Well, I'm not shrinking in fear like you are. So that's one thing straight off.

The more humble you program yourself to be, the more you're going to disempower yourself.

LOL, don't mistake knowledge and humility for weakness, or do, up to you. Your gutter thoughts are wasted energy on me.
You appear to be very slanted towards focusing on the negative, while promoting arrogance and being condescending.
That is all your energy is getting you, and it is obvious to everyone who reads your vitriol.
I've likely been oobing away multiple decades past your short little lifespan. But I was never so awkward or arrogant. Trying to shove your venom down other people's throats like this shows extreme immaturity.
You likely can't do much with an ego that size, it drains every last bit of real energy, so you obviously are just posturing to make up for a lack of skill, or some other loss or shortcoming.
Perhaps you need some help, or a hug?