OTO

[supremecoyote]

Contemplating attending Gnostic mass at my local OTO lodge this upcoming saturday, more so for another current of study, studying ceremonial magick outside of what i'm currently familiar with and maybe a potential bonus of seeing another perspective of gnosis that I vibe with. I've been studying western occultism specifically for the past 6 months individually, and I've been a folk conjurer/ astrologist for the past 9 years. This isn't a question of if it's worth studying because I'm interested in many different currents and I do think that thelema is worth studying for my own esoteric personal journey.

I'm asking for first hand experiences with OTO ( good / bad / neutral ) and the question of "what should I anticipate with joining an OTO lodge ?"

Is there anything I should be aware of up front, inquire about with the lodge master before I pursue initiation, what does red flags/ green flags look like at a lodge ?

I did want to inquire about my local golden dawn lodge but I'm not willing to pay $500 upfront for membership currently. Yes I understand that Thelema and Golden Dawn are two different lodges with different teachings. Currently I'm kinda torn on what direction I want to take ultimately, but I'm mainly interested in group study/ evocation hence my interest in lodges.

 

[Beyond Everything]

, what does red flags/ green flags look like at a lodge ?

Offers to share beds or needles

 

[supremecoyote]

Offers to share beds or needles

well.... fortunately enough for me I'm currently sober and I've read a little bit about thelemite teachings surrounding sex magick. I'm hoping I'm not forced to participate to engage in anything I don't want to engage with to further my studies because I will just leave and go home lol. Im not against solo studying ultimately i've just been doing that for the past 9 years. But thank you for letting me know !!

 

[emptymylove]

Yes the best is to go to the public attendances of your local lodge and directly ask your questions. Vibes may vary greatly from one locality to an other, but there is a general governance.
I found more ressourceful to meet and discuss live with people and practitionners.
You don't need to be member or pay anything to assist the mass - maybe contributing on donation if they rent the place. Membership should be cheaper than 500 definitely, they are general membership fees but not much and some related to your local lodge budget

Post automatically merged: Yesterday at 9:58 PM

There is one year of preparation and exploring social gatherings etc before deciding to request your 1st initiation

 

[Firetree]

Contemplating attending Gnostic mass at my local OTO lodge this upcoming saturday, more so for another current of study, studying ceremonial magick outside of what i'm currently familiar with and maybe a potential bonus of seeing another perspective of gnosis that I vibe with. I've been studying western occultism specifically for the past 6 months individually, and I've been a folk conjurer/ astrologist for the past 9 years. This isn't a question of if it's worth studying because I'm interested in many different currents and I do think that thelema is worth studying for my own esoteric personal journey.

Things to bear in mind when attending Gnostic Mass ; first local OTO groups (including lodges ) may be different and/or unique to each other ; each has a general plan and outline and the same ritual texts but may have a different spin on it . You might find some competent , or not that competent . The Mass is a highly liturgical expression of a 'high' mystery . I have never seen it as a good introduction to the 'Man of Earth ' triad ( the first three degrees ) . Its more a symbolic representation of the OTO 5th degree ( R+C ) . And not many people nowadays go for liturgical expression ( they think it is like church ... and that is exactly what it is , its the church for OTO Thelema ) .

It could give an indication though on what the group is like and how they work . There is often some sort of social dynamic after the ritual as well, so you might get to talk and meet .

I'm asking for first hand experiences with OTO ( good / bad / neutral ) and the question of "what should I anticipate with joining an OTO lodge ?"

Taking the point that any system with sub-groups can have good or bad sub-groups ... you should anticipate and hope for a clear instruction via dramatic ritual* in the first 3 degrees ( to start) common to most such organisations representing the stages of life ( incarnation, birth, life, death ), instruction in navigating, balancing, and finding your own way though them . . . in a Thelemic concept / method .

As well as the personal benefit of instruction (via the initiation rituals ) there should be a valid initiator that later either gives classes or talks to you about these instructions and concepts outside the ceremony .

You should also expect that if initiation goes ahead it will be first a MInerval initiation ( 0 degree ) which usually is a 9 month period symbolizing gestation and also serves as a trial period where both parties can check each other out and see if they want to continue with each other before taking the full commitment of 1st degree and full membership in the order ( )deg is a 'guest of the order ' )

* a dramatic ritual is like a play that you are an actor in , and your role and purpose is unveiled to you as the play progresses . THis is why it is more potent than just reading the script . Its an ancient formulae , perhaps going back 40,000 years

Is there anything I should be aware of up front, inquire about with the lodge master before I pursue initiation, what does red flags/ green flags look like at a lodge ?

Aside from the above , they should inform you of any requirements. I would of course suggest you become somewhat familiar with Thelema and concepts .

Then again ..... sometimes its better to nothing ... when you walk into a 'surprise birthday party ' .... if some rat gives you a heads up . that 'dynamic charge ' isn't there .

I did want to inquire about my local golden dawn lodge but I'm not willing to pay $500 upfront for membership currently. Yes I understand that Thelema and Golden Dawn are two different lodges with different teachings. Currently I'm kinda torn on what direction I want to take ultimately, but I'm mainly interested in group study/ evocation hence my interest in lodges.

IN OTO you will not be entering at Lodge level ; you will start in a Camp , work though to an Oasis and further , then encounter the Lodge .

Post automatically merged: Yesterday at 10:26 PM

well.... fortunately enough for me I'm currently sober and I've read a little bit about thelemite teachings surrounding sex magick.

Being sober will make things easier for you ( hint ; addiction goes against OTO initiation instruction , so you are running with an advantage there being sober ) . Sex magick ... sorry , that does not arise in the Man of Earth Triad first 3 degrees

I'm hoping I'm not forced to participate to engage in anything I don't want to engage with

That can be a tricky issue ; some find that in no way they encounter that . Yet some individuals can have hang ups about some things others consider trivial .

Let's look at Wicca ( cause we cant talk about OTO 'internal stuff' here ) ; some groups worked naked ( in my experience, in the past ) , some find that cool or no problem (especially if you like going to nude beach ) other individuals have a big hang up about it or project stuff about it . You either get over that and enjoy the rest or dont get over it and do not take part / leave ... and miss out Its up to you .

But remember , a Thelemic initiation body is primarily about assisting you to find your True Will , forcing anyone to do things , against their will would be a big NO NO .

to further my studies because I will just leave and go home lol. Im not against solo studying ultimately i've just been doing that for the past 9 years. But thank you for letting me know !!

You would still be required to 'solo study ' .... the OTO will not do that for you .

 

[supremecoyote]

thank you

Things to bear in mind when attending Gnostic Mass ; first local OTO groups (including lodges ) may be different and/or unique to each other ; each has a general plan and outline and the same ritual texts but may have a different spin on it . You might find some competent , or not that competent . The Mass is a highly liturgical expression of a 'high' mystery . I have never seen it as a good introduction to the 'Man of Earth ' triad ( the first three degrees ) . Its more a symbolic representation of the OTO 5th degree ( R+C ) . And not many people nowadays go for liturgical expression ( they think it is like church ... and that is exactly what it is , its the church for OTO Thelema ) .

It could give an indication though on what the group is like and how they work . There is often some sort of social dynamic after the ritual as well, so you might get to talk and meet .




Taking the point that any system with sub-groups can have good or bad sub-groups ... you should anticipate and hope for a clear instruction via dramatic ritual* in the first 3 degrees ( to start) common to most such organisations representing the stages of life ( incarnation, birth, life, death ), instruction in navigating, balancing, and finding your own way though them . . . in a Thelemic concept / method .

As well as the personal benefit of instruction (via the initiation rituals ) there should be a valid initiator that later either gives classes or talks to you about these instructions and concepts outside the ceremony .

You should also expect that if initiation goes ahead it will be first a MInerval initiation ( 0 degree ) which usually is a 9 month period symbolizing gestation and also serves as a trial period where both parties can check each other out and see if they want to continue with each other before taking the full commitment of 1st degree and full membership in the order ( )deg is a 'guest of the order ' )

* a dramatic ritual is like a play that you are an actor in , and your role and purpose is unveiled to you as the play progresses . THis is why it is more potent than just reading the script . Its an ancient formulae , perhaps going back 40,000 years


Aside from the above , they should inform you of any requirements. I would of course suggest you become somewhat familiar with Thelema and concepts .

Then again ..... sometimes its better to nothing ... when you walk into a 'surprise birthday party ' .... if some rat gives you a heads up . that 'dynamic charge ' isn't there .



IN OTO you will not be entering at Lodge level ; you will start in a Camp , work though to an Oasis and further , then encounter the Lodge .

Post automatically merged: Yesterday at 10:26 PM

Being sober will make things easier for you ( hint ; addiction goes against OTO initiation instruction , so you are running with an advantage there being sober ) . Sex magick ... sorry , that does not arise in the Man of Earth Triad first 3 degrees



That can be a tricky issue ; some find that in no way they encounter that . Yet some individuals can have hang ups about some things others consider trivial .

Let's look at Wicca ( cause we cant talk about OTO 'internal stuff' here ) ; some groups worked naked ( in my experience, in the past ) , some find that cool or no problem (especially if you like going to nude beach ) other individuals have a big hang up about it or project stuff about it . You either get over that and enjoy the rest or dont get over it and do not take part / leave ... and miss out Its up to you .

But remember , a Thelemic initiation body is primarily about assisting you to find your True Will , forcing anyone to do things , against their will would be a big NO NO .



You would still be required to 'solo study ' .... the OTO will not do that for you .

Thank you for this insight!

I've been solo studying thelema, golden dawn, and other esoterica for the past 6 months but I'm a very hands on learner, so I'm taking the initiative to check out some Gnostic Mass meetings and public evocations this local lodge offers !

I'm not against sex magick inherently as I'm currently reading Crowley's book on sex magick and use sex magick regularly in my own practice , my hard boundary is however that everyone involved in such rituals is adult, consenting and fully aware of what's taking place. I'm also not anti ritualistic intoxication either, I'm just sober for my own personal reasons. I don't see the point of joining such orders if you're just going to be closed minded, judgmental and stand offish. I'm actually pretty excited to see what gnostic mass is about this saturday ! When I first started my spiritual path I was practicing kabbalah but it was a little too advanced for my 20 year old brain at the time so I left it alone in favor for Hoodoo root working. But now I'm at a point in my life where I've developed mentally and spiritually enough to revisit kabbalah and other currents of western esoterica. I'm also willing to take the time to it takes to solo study, group study and be initiated. I don't want to jump into something as deep as Thelema brashly and ignorant.

This all came about because my spirit guides told me I need to add more structure into my current craft and ceromonial magick deeply resonates with what I need to incorporate.

 

[Firetree]

It sounds as if you are prepared and ready to start this journey - that can help a lot .

As well as strictly adhering to OTO 'things' ( basically only the rituals and Mass are included in that ) also sometimes share similar interests . Eg. some in the Scandinavian countries look into and practice those mysteries , some in the south USA have an affinity with Hoodoo / Voodoun . . . and so on .