Occult Discernment Methodology

[AbammonTheGreat]

Curious as to the methodology behind everyone's discernment when dealing with spirits and entities. Are they lying? Are they who they say they are? Are they misleading?

I have only a few techniques personally. I can "sense" different types of spirits. Leeches will feel nauseous while djinn will have a psychological darkness to the interaction. If I am visually seeing them it is easier to tell when they are lying as there are inconsistencies in their appearance versus what they are saying or presenting as. But wholly if I get the feeling I am being lied to then my only method of testing them is through threats, binding spirits, and godnames. Sometimes this is not the most optimal approach as if it is a spirit I am on good terms with I would rather not be resorting to the aggressive techniques to assert whether they are who they say they are.

I am curious to the methodology of the other conjurers on here, seeking some inspiration in refining my technique and practice.

 

[AlfrunGrima]

[Archive] - [Leonardo] Discerning Authentic Spirit Contact

I've been meaning to write a blog post on discerning authentic spirit messages as I've received many emails from readers regarding this issue. Reading through the forums lately, I've noticed several posts related to this very topic. Perhaps some of these notes I've made so far will help those of...

wizardforums.com

There is a tutorial on Wizard Forums about this topic. Perhaps it is worth while to look at it. And for beginners who are reading with us it is a good article to read.

 

[AbammonTheGreat]

Wonderful tutorial! I might have worded my prompt incorrectly though. I'm more curious as to how the conjurers here discern correct information from false information and discern between types of spirits. How they make sure the information they are receiving is 1) truthful and 2) coming from the source they are trying to contact. I have found that astral entities like to takeover methods of contact and provide false information and I was curious as to how people in their practice enforce this without having to get aggressive towards whatever they've conjured.

I have personally found myself binding and threatening a spirit that I had a developed relationship with because a different entity was masking as it before. I would much rather not push the spirits I have a relationship with into the triangle using my athame and godnames if there are some other more tactful ways to guarantee that the spirit that I am speaking to is in fact the one that I think it is.

 

[Yazata]

other more tactful ways

The Golden Dawn developed the method of projecting / casting a letter towards the spirit. That would then be the Hebrew letter that corresponds to the planet the spirit falls under. The idea is that the planetary energy of the symbol would distort the entity if it isn't of that sphere.

I personally don't think of the Triangle as offensive, same for my athame (steel and with AGLA ON etched into it).

John Dee was told (by Michael I believe) that the outer ring of the Sigilium Dei also is a barrier that ensures that no evil spirit shall enter it (I am paraphrasing..) Even though I made a variation of that symbol, I consider it to work in the same way. Another thing you can do, and which I have done in the past, is to first open the seal of the King the spirit falls under, and then place the seal / sigil of the one you are calling (or having doubts about) on top of it.

 

[Lurker]

I'm working from a medieval grimoire for summoning the archangels. It is typically Christian and has a verbal test to interrogate the spirits when they arrive, which they must answer truthfully. That is followed by requiring them to agree with a very pious statement or be banished by not agreeing with it.

Interestingly, to operate the system according to the grimoire only requires a crystal ball, a candle on either side, and the seal of the archangel, which is placed under the crystal ball ". . . in the manner of Trithemeus." The seal is not worn as a lamen and there is no table of practice. (This makes me wonder if the table of practice was actually an invention of Francis Barrett's.)

However, for the second round of workings I've made and am using a table of practice, so whatever spirit(s) shows up will manifest in the triangle in the center of the ToP, where the archangel's seal is placed.

However, this hasn't really been an issue, and I don't expect it to be. According to the Qabalistic taxonomy (with the caveats that taxonomies are human inventions and the map is not the territory) archangels are sublime, Briatic level beings, so I don't expect an Astral level being to be able to interfere.

Before that, I did a little work with the planetary spirits using Ogdoadic magick. That always began with banishing using The Setting of the Wards of Power to purify the space, so Astral critters were not an issue.

Does your practice include banishing at the beginning of the ritual?

Also, good topic!

 

[AbammonTheGreat]

In ceremony and ritual, yes. Everything starts with a purification of myself and the space, appeal and prayer to God, then a casting of the circle. This seems to work effectively though sometimes I find an issue arises by what gets in after the ritual or if I attempt to casually access the spirit later (like calling upon the spirit throughout my day).

 

[Keldan]

Curious as to the methodology behind everyone's discernment when dealing with spirits and entities. Are they lying? Are they who they say they are? Are they misleading?

I have only a few techniques personally. I can "sense" different types of spirits. Leeches will feel nauseous while djinn will have a psychological darkness to the interaction. If I am visually seeing them it is easier to tell when they are lying as there are inconsistencies in their appearance versus what they are saying or presenting as. But wholly if I get the feeling I am being lied to then my only method of testing them is through threats, binding spirits, and godnames. Sometimes this is not the most optimal approach as if it is a spirit I am on good terms with I would rather not be resorting to the aggressive techniques to assert whether they are who they say they are.

I am curious to the methodology of the other conjurers on here, seeking some inspiration in refining my technique and practice.

I’ve put traps in place so that any spirit that lies or approaches with harmful intent will be trapped. Once trapped, I can banish them later. This method works exceptionally well for me because it reduces the need to rely on intuition, discernment checks, and other skills, or repeated vetting every time contact is made. So far, very few spirits attempt deception here because they know that they can’t do it here.

Because I work with a ton of spirits, I can identify who I’m dealing with as soon as they present themselves. At this point, that recognition is experience based, I don’t need to interview them or run extended tests to establish their nature anymore. It also eliminates any incentive to lie or pretend because I’ll know regardless.

Djinns in particular are very dark spirits, so you can feel their darkness oppressive. That said, not all djinns are that dark. There are a lot of lighter djinns too, and that difference is not a matter of masking, their current are just much lighter.

I’m not going to share my exact method, but I do have a remedy for managing current intensity. If a spirit’s presence triggers negative physical effects from headaches, nausea, heaviness, oppressive, or general sickness, etc., they wouldn’t have a negative effect like that when I interact with them. There are ways to prevent that impact instead of simply enduring it. You should not have to tank those symptoms at all and should look for a way to work around it.

I’ve also never had to escalate into aggressive tactics. I don’t use tools in my practice, so no athame, no weapons, and no candles (except in pure candle magick).

 

[Frater R.P.G.]

Gematria is a very useful method for distinguishing real spirits from your imagination or some lowly larvae. You ask the spirit to answer a question with such Qabalistic code. It should be something that means nothing to your conscious mind, like a seemingly, random word or number, but which upon further examination proves to be strongly related to the question at hand. For example, to test a solar spirit you may ask what their domain is, and say they answer 1081, which is the numerical value of Tifaret, a sefirah commonly associated with the Sun. Of course this is just a simple example. In practice, it might be less obvious, but self evident as you decode it.

This of course doesn't necessarily prove who the spirit is or what their intentions are, and to be honest, I don't have a perfect method for that. Ultimately it is like with people, you will only see it with time as they prove themselves with truthful information and effective assistance to you.

 

[FireBorn]

How can you know if a spirit is telling the truth? You cant know for certain. Certainty isnt a thing in this space, at least not consistently.

I have encountered mimic spirits (I think they were astral parasite type mimics, but not 100%) trying to mimic demons I work with. In my experiences with them, they couldn't hold frame very long at all. Their energy felt 'off', as in extra aggressive. They couldn't hide that aggression, and were very impatient. Easy enough for me to discern and banish on the spot.

The tougher question is 'How can you know if every spirit you have encountered told you truth?' Fuck man, you got me there. I cannot. None of us can in reality. Think about it, these are beings older than humanity in most cases. They are a different type of intelligence operating on a different level than we are. To think we are going to outsmart them, or outmaneuver them with consistent success is just human arrogance whistling in the dark on a good day.

This highlights the risks we take when we decide to encounter spirits on purpose. We seek them out intentionally. There is inherent risk to it for certain. Are there guarantees? Nope. Are there ways to go about things that make you the practitioner feel better about it, or set the frame for the interaction? Yes, lots of ways. I think that is just the reality of it all. If you want safety and guarantees, stay on the porch.

Thinking we have absolute answers with all of this is naïve. Informed choice and sovereignty go a long way. Does bad shit happen? Yes. Does it happen more than it doesnt? Not in my experience. Yours may be wildly different.

Here is what I do know; I do know that over time, I have developed relationships with some spirits. Over the course of time, those relationships have born trust based on outcomes. Is that foolproof? Again, there is no such thing as certainty, not really. Also, my intuition has strengthened over time and with use (Meaning paying attention to it, and listening to it, being willing to be wrong and continuing to sharpen it).

If you are feeling the push/pull in my answer, you are reading it correctly. No certainty, yet I move with confidence. Experience is the best teacher here.

Last thing here, this is all so extremely subjective. All of it. No two people will have the same experiences, even with the same system and same spirit. That said, we cant ever be certain about this outside our own experiences, outside our own personal journeys, outside ourselves.

YMMV

 

[Keldan]

How can you know if a spirit is telling the truth?

An experienced practitioner can tell whether a spirit is being truthful. Within the first few seconds of contact, one could differentiate a wolf spirit from something else by their energy. Much like when you could tell that the mimic spirit’s energy felt off.

You mentioned mimic spirits. Mimic is the ability to change one’s own energy to match another being’s energy. Sustained mimic also drains the target. When a practitioner cannot immediately detect the energy difference, there are still ways to separate a mimic from the authentic presence. I can share a little trick. One that is to keep the presence engaged with you longer, they will reveal themselves shortly.

Foolproof implies a result that is repeatable regardless of who performs the work. But practitioner A may summon a spirit and be unable to confirm whether the contact is genuine or an imposter. Practitioner B with more experience can identify whether the presence matches the intended spirit. That gap in experience means A cannot reproduce B’s results. This is also why one person will insist something is possible while another insists it is not. The closest thing to foolproof is controlling external factors that influence outcomes.

Every being operates through energy, and any energy can be engaged and worked with.

 

[FireBorn]

An experienced practitioner can tell whether a spirit is being truthful. Within the first few seconds of contact, one could differentiate a wolf spirit from something else by their energy. Much like when you could tell that the mimic spirit’s energy felt off.

I think I would refine your first claim a bit, because it feels a little too absolute and broad to me.

Recognizing the resonance or energetic signature of a spirit is one thing. Knowing whether everything that spirit communicates is true, or whether the practitioner received/interpreted it clearly, is a completely different thing.

It is also worth differentiating between communicating with a spirit that is new to you versus one you already have a relationship or past communication with. I think that matters a lot here.

Maybe the spirit says “firetruck,” but the practitioner hears “red duck” after the message passes through their own filters: ego, shadow, fear, expectation, desire, prior beliefs, scaffolding of system, etc. Then the practitioner walks away 100% certain of what they heard.

In that case, did the spirit lie? Or did the practitioner distort the message during reception or interpretation?

Even if two very experienced practitioners evoked a demon that was new to both of them, they would likely have different encounters. Not because either one is wrong or bad, but because they are different people with different filters. That is part of why all of this is so damned subjective and so hard to pin down.

 

[Keldan]

Recognizing the resonance or energetic signature of a spirit is one thing. Knowing whether everything that spirit communicates is true, or whether the practitioner received/interpreted it clearly, is a completely different thing.

This level of discernment comes with experience, which I already addressed above. My method also differs from what many practitioners use. If a spirit communicates a word “firetruck,” I recognize the meaning beneath the surface wording firetruck. I listen to the underlying current.

All my comments above refer to new contacts, spirits one has just evoked or summoned, not spirits one already has an established relationship with.

Using your example, if two highly experienced practitioners evoke a demon that is new to both of them. Of course, their encounters will be different. But if their skill levels are on an even ground, their notes will have a ton of similarities. If one practitioner lacks broad experience in general with spirits, that gap will show.

You work with somewhat many spirits, but your belief is not 100%, because so far your notes have not matched with others’ accounts yet.

 

[FireBorn]

You work with somewhat many spirits, but your belief is not 100%, because so far your notes have not matched with others’ accounts yet.

I’m going to set aside what reads like a little jab here because I don’t know how you meant it.

I think we may still be talking past each other a little. I am not saying experienced practitioners will have nothing in common in their notes. I agree that if two experienced practitioners contact the same spirit, there may be overlap in current, tone, pressure, symbolism, temperament, etc. I would call that current signature. But overlap is not the same as identical contact, and recognizing current is not the same as knowing every communication was received or interpreted without distortion.

I also want to clarify something: my lack of 100% certainty is not because my notes have or have not matched other practitioners. It is because I do not think 100% certainty is a realistic or responsible claim in this space. That is not a lack of belief. It is a boundary around what I am willing to claim.

Belief and certainty are two different things. This isn't about pedantry. Clarity with language matters here. What seems like mere nuance can be as wide as the Grand Canyon.

I trust my experiences enough to act. If something approaches me and feels wrong, I deal with it. If a presence burns, presses, shifts the room, or responds in a way I recognize, I trust that enough to move accordingly. Where I stand is where I practice.

But I still question my interpretation afterward. That is the distinction I am making. Trust the encounter, question the interpretation. Simple.

The spirit may be real. The contact may be real. The current may be recognized. But the practitioner is still part of the apparatus, and that means reception and interpretation can still be filtered.

 

[Keldan]

and that means reception and interpretation can still be filtered.

You didn’t understand what I meant, so I’ll use the “firetruck” example again. When I say I listen to the underlying current, I’m not talking about recognizing current. I’m describing the actual channel of reception I use. I’m not stopping at the surface word “firetruck,” I’m listening past that, and into the being’s feelings, thoughts, and what they actually meant by saying that word “firetruck” in that moment. The information I’m receiving is raw, uncompressed, and with no filter.

So from my side, there’s nothing to interpret, because I’m not receiving just a single word “firetruck” and then trying to decode it afterward. I’m receiving multiple layers at once. When a being says one thing, there are often several strands underneath it that people miss, different contexts, subtexts, motive/agenda, thoughts/feelings, and more. That changes the entire discernment equation. It also reduces the deception I have here, like I said in my first comment. Beings would know they can’t lie to me here because we’re communicating through energy.

On identification, this is where experience matters. When I meet a new spirit, I can tell their type, and sometimes pick up where they come from, or what other info about their type before I ask a question. But this is because I’ve worked with a ton of spirits over the years to build up these kinds of information.

And yes, developing this level of reception is not easy. Obviously it is the best discernment method one can develop in their spiritual journey. Without it, I agree, you trust the encounter, then you question your interpretation afterward, because you’re working from a thinner slice of data. My point is simply that “firetruck” is never just “firetruck.” Even in ordinary conversation on a forum like this, one sentence carry many layers. In spirit contact, that layering is amplified so much more.

 

[Ohana]

You mentioned mimic spirits. Mimic is the ability to change one’s own energy to match another being’s energy. Sustained mimic also drains the target. When a practitioner cannot immediately detect the energy difference, there are still ways to separate a mimic from the authentic presence. I can share a little trick. One that is to keep the presence engaged with you longer, they will reveal themselves shortly.

That kind of reminds me of the six eared macaque in Journey to the West. The villian in that story that can perfectly mimick anything. What if there was a mimic with enough energy to be able to mimick for atleast an entire humans lifespan.

If such an entity existed the engaging with it longer trick wouldn't work. If its really good at mimicking it could fool someone their entire life. The only thing is if they do have that much energy they probably have something to help with. The only problem I think is people are comparing notes and the one with the mimick has not as accurate information.

And yes, developing this level of reception is not easy. Obviously it is the best discernment method one can develop in their spiritual journey. Without it, I agree, you trust the encounter, then you question your interpretation afterward, because you’re working from a thinner slice of data. My point is simply that “firetruck” is never just “firetruck.” Even in ordinary conversation on a forum like this, one sentence carry many layers. In spirit contact, that layering is amplified so much more.

(Preface: this all very loose speculation and might not be accurate without proof and kind of just a working hypothesis I have. Again might be not accurate at all)

That kind of sounds like using the more creative part of the brain or "right" to interpret spirit messages where it seems like Fireborn is using the more "left"/ logical part to interpret messages. (I put them in quotations because I don't think right and left brain are scientifically sound. Just used as example)

I think the "right" half as more better to get accuracy and discernment and "left" half as harder to get accuracy but when it does its intense like a match lit for discernment. It might not be as constisist overall. I got this idea of how this works via the heisenberg uncertainty principle actually. (I again want to preface I'm using this mostly as a metaphor relating it back to concepts I understand. I don't want to get all this is exact science and 100% true this is just the framework/metaphor I understand it by.)

So the metaphor I came up for this would be like in heisenebergs uncertainty principle so I guess the "Left"/ more logical side tries to find the exact position and the "right"/ more creative side tries to understand the momentum/energy of it more.

(Again this is a metaphor not actual science and might not be a 100% accurate. Just my metaphor I use to understand how this might work. But this technically all 100% wild speculation on my end)

 

[tiger's eye]

Well, perhaps I can offer some insights from my own culture regarding such matters.
First of all, we acknowledge that such situations can occur, because whether it’s humans or other entities, we all exist within the same world. By “world” here, I don’t mean the “spiritual levels/worlds” described by the Golden Dawn, but rather a broader concept that encompasses everything—after all, we all influence one another, and if we weren’t in the same “world,” such influence would be impossible.
In the practices of our sorcerers, although such situations exist, this issue is not usually the primary focus. However, one thing is certain: among these spirits, there are both benevolent and malevolent ones. You cannot assume they are all malevolent; if that were the case, I believe these practices would be absolutely forbidden, because engaging in them would inevitably lead to harm. Since there are benevolent ones, the matter becomes straightforward—why not invite the friendly spirits to assist?
Consequently, the spells of many practitioners frequently involve folk deities or spirits that have been passed down, believed in, and validated by generation after generation. These entities are willing to help people, and people offer them rewards in return. This practice naturally extends to larger and more complex rituals, serving as an intermediary between the practitioner and other beings.
Therefore, our approach to such “deceptive” situations is simple: ask the benevolent spirits for help. Because of their immense reputation and influence in the community, we believe they will “grant every request.” In other words, even if you’re unsure whether the situation you’re facing is fraudulent, simply make a request to them using the appropriate method—or rather, a method recognized by these spirits—and they will use their power to bring you accurate information or drive away the entities before you that are causing falsehood and deception. That is to say, for us, the “core” of magic lies in a stable relationship that has been confirmed in some way. Relationships are always the most important factor, and ensuring their stability is of the utmost importance.
I’m not saying you have to see things exactly as I do, but perhaps this might offer some insight: since such deceptions are inevitable, why not focus more on their opposites—those deities or spirits that are naturally benevolent toward humans, or those who are friendly for specific reasons? I find it difficult to handle every situation alone. Given that, seeking help from reliable “allies” might help you avoid trouble.