Hi guest! As you can see, the new Wizard Forums has been revived, and we are glad to have you visiting our site! However, it would be really helpful, both to you and us, if you registered on our website! Registering allows you to see all posts, and make posts yourself, which would be great if you could share your knowledge and opinions with us! You could also make posts to ask questions!
Hi, I've dabbled over the years in various magical systems and beliefs. However what they ultimately boils down to seems to be achieving (incorrect word) non dual consciousness. Thelema, based on my understanding, expanded by the Baptist's Head trilogy of Alan Chapman and Duncan Barford has the same goal. However it seems overly complicated and verbose. All the qabbalistic correspondences, gematria, the rituals and initiations seem to take a lifetime to go through. So I'm wondering are there among you practitioners that follow thelema and it's current organisations OTO or A.A. as a path towards awakening/ Buddhahood/ Liberation and what insights can you share with us?
The works of thelemites such as James A. Eshelman fascinate me, however I'm a bit of a mess this point in my life and can't seem to figure how to integrate them into my quest for awakening, referred to as the Great Work in these cermonial magical traditions. (Golden Daen, & Thelema). Perheaps I should give up on them altogether for they seem an attachment/distraction for my ego and focus on a more direct contemplative path such as Vajrayana Buddhism, Zazen, Advaita?
Crowley established the grade of Ipsissmus in his AA, and claimed the grade. Here is his own description of the fruits of its attainment:
The Ipsissimus is pre-eminently the Master of all modes of existence; that is, his being is entirely free from internal or external necessity. His work is to destroy all tendencies to construct or to cancel such necessities
Crowley was a hopeless heroin addict. It doesn't take a genius to see the glaring contradition, as I don't see there any escape from 'necessity', whether you wish to consider a drug addiction external or internal.
If you want to be lost up the ass of someone's personal metaphysical vanity project, then Crowley can provide that. Liberation is a distinctly different matter, and not practically available in popular conceptions.
Hi, I've dabbled over the years in various magical systems and beliefs. However what they ultimately boils down to seems to be achieving (incorrect word) non dual consciousness. Thelema, based on my understanding, expanded by the Baptist's Head trilogy of Alan Chapman and Duncan Barford has the same goal.
Sorry ..... 'dabbling' won;t get you very far at all . Thelema ; non-dual ? Not in its end game or ultimate expression - I mean there is a LOT in there about dissolving in ecstasy unto Nu . Dabble in this ; go through Ch 1 BoL and see how many non dual 'encouragements' you can find .
However it seems overly complicated and verbose. All the qabbalistic correspondences, gematria, the rituals and initiations seem to take a lifetime to go through.
So I'm wondering are there among you practitioners that follow thelema and it's current organisations OTO or A.A. as a path towards awakening/ Buddhahood/ Liberation and what insights can you share with us?
OTO initiations dont claim to offer that . This seems mixed up with all sorts of things . I could offer pages of insights , thats a too general question IMO . I have offered some above , I am happy to answer specific questions about 'insights'
The works of thelemites such as James A. Eshelman fascinate me, however I'm a bit of a mess this point in my life and can't seem to figure how to integrate them into my quest for awakening,
referred to as the Great Work in these cermonial magical traditions. (Golden Daen, & Thelema). Perheaps I should give up on them altogether for they seem an attachment/distraction for my ego and focus on a more direct contemplative path such as Vajrayana Buddhism, Zazen, Advaita?
Crowley established the grade of Ipsissmus in his AA, and claimed the grade. Here is his own description of the fruits of its attainment:
The Ipsissimus is pre-eminently the Master of all modes of existence; that is, his being is entirely free from internal or external necessity. His work is to destroy all tendencies to construct or to cancel such necessities
Crowley was a hopeless heroin addict. It doesn't take a genius to see the glaring contradition, as I don't see there any escape from 'necessity', whether you wish to consider a drug addiction external or internal.
If you want to be lost up the ass of someone's personal metaphysical vanity project, then Crowley can provide that. Liberation is a distinctly different matter, and not practically available in popular conceptions.
You seem hell bent on continually focusing on this and no other aspect , even when you do, this comes into play and negates everything in the whole system . . . for you . It has become .... boring .
I have never found anything like that in the OTO initiations and teachings themselves , actually quite the opposite - where it is taught that addiction to any drug is a failure . And frankly after experiencing that , I have no need to consider Crowley in anything whatsoever .... he could go and shoot smack and root goats in hell as far as I am concerned ! .
.... a Thelemite , by definition can be any random maniac that declares he is one .
and what does 'enlightened' mean ? Illumined or Bodhi , Nirvana , Anuttarā-samyak-saṃbodhi , Satori , Kensho, Wu ....
- "enlightenment" is a 19th-century translation that carries a Western connotation of general insight or illumination . The western concept of 'Illumination ' is relating to an outside force coming , but the eastern concept of 'Bodhi' is relating to an inner removal of blockages and ignorance to let an inner 'knowing' arise .
You seem hell bent on continually focusing on this and no other aspect , even when you do, this comes into play and negates everything in the whole system . . . for you . It has become .... boring .
No, I've discussed several other things in previous Crowley 'discussions'. In any event, the point is there is a set of teachings which are useless towards handling something (in this case addiction) that real teachings could deal with. Addiction involves continually-fed thoughtforms. If a set of esoteric teachings has no handle on these realities, how are you expecting it to approach something magnitudes of order more difficult- liberation?
Trying to pretend Crowley's helpless submission to smack has no relevance to the teachings he propagated is quite a case of blind alley seeking.
.... a Thelemite , by definition can be any random maniac that declares he is one .
and what does 'enlightened' mean ? Illumined or Bodhi , Nirvana , Anuttarā-samyak-saṃbodhi , Satori , Kensho, Wu ....
- "enlightenment" is a 19th-century translation that carries a Western connotation of general insight or illumination . The western concept of 'Illumination ' is relating to an outside force coming , but the eastern concept of 'Bodhi' is relating to an inner removal of blockages and ignorance to let an inner 'knowing' arise .
Merely just posing the question. If you can answer this question to yourself then you will know what is right. If you seek wisdom look to where you find wise-men. etc.
You might want to check out Thelema's earliest origin point, Sabbatean Frankist Kabbalah. Now THAT is some fascinating stuff. It's completely different from Lurianic Kabbalah and the basis for so much in the occult, including Thelema.
Thelema is barely 120 old and limited to the spiritual fringe while Buddhism has been around for 2,500 years and is a major world religion. The two simply don't compare.
Crowley borrowed from many disparate traditions and crammed them into his own system, choosing the universalist approach that was popular in his day: that all religions basically have the same goal and their methods will ultimately lead to the same end result. In accordance with this attitude, he syncretized schools of thought that were as like as chalk and cheese, and it has happened to me several times that when I investigated these schools in more detail that I came to totally different conclusions that couldn't be reconciled with Crowley's other teachings at all. The True Will, for example, is completely immaterial in Buddhism where there is
(or self, period, and no soul either). Thelema, on the other hand, strikes me as a "Me Me Me!" religion where the spiritual development of the individual, accompanied by an increase in personal power, is paramount and where compassion is seen as a weakness, probably a Nietzschean influence.
In Crowley, you can often spot a "The weak shall perish!" stance which reinforces the attitude of "Me against the world" of the 'extreme rugged individualist' that I admired so much in my younger days but since have found a dead end leading only to misery and isolation. The Mahayana aim is to achieve enlightenment for the benefit all sentient beings, not only for one's own; it's a wider perspective and different from the Theravada Buddhism Crowley encounted in Sri Lanka where each seeker is basically on his/her own. When Crowley pontificated about Buddhism, he could get away with it because there were so few books on that topic available at that time - not anymore. In some of his books Crowley gives reading lists with books that have been long superseded, and a serious student of Thelema would want to update those.
Speaking for myself, I've deconstructed (Hermetic) Qabalah by now by reading (far too many scholarly) books on authentic Jewish Kabalah; maybe one day I'll be able to take it seriously as a working system again but currently I see it as nothing but a stripped-down version of the Tree of Life onto which planetary correspondences have been spuriously grafted which didn't exist in Jewish Kabalah at all.
You can make a case for the borrowing of methods and tools from other spiritual systems though. It works well in the case of Zen meditation (it's popular with Jesuits, and Japanese roshis have always been very supportive in this respect) or hatha yoga. In other cases, you'd better be very very careful and avoid accepting the incomplete understandings of a dyed-in-the-wool colonialist firmly convinced of the superiority of the 'British race', as Dion Fortune would say.
I'm not against eclecticism per se but in my opinion, you should be always be aware of the originals and not mash them up indiscriminately. There may be some (superficial) commonalities between systems but the differences will always be vast, not least because of divergent histories and traditions. For example, the Egyptian Book of the Dead (or more correctly Spells of Coming Forth by Day) has hardly anything to do with the Tibetan Book of the Dead (the Bardo Thodol), apart from a very dodgy translation history. One is the product of an extinct civilisation, the other of a monastic culture active to this day with a completely different religion and philosophy.
In short, I don't think Thelema and Buddhism go well together. One glorifies the Self, the other denies the existence of a permanent, unchanging Self. I would see the ego as the possible expression of such a glorification and a hardening of all attachments even when striving for spiritual growth, the "Me Me Me!" syndrome which Chögyam Trungpa called '
', a way to build a more solid self-image. It's also no use to announce to the world that you have realised the emptiness behind all phenomena when it's nothing but a book insight (Kerouac, Robert A. Wilson, and other loudmouth authors) and doesn't come from meditation practice. I've become wary of drawing conclusions from my reading, there a so many ways of misunderstanding spiritual teachings, it's mind-boggling.
Post automatically merged:
Here's an example for such misunderstandings:
The term ego—or ego-self—is frequently used to describe the self-centered, fabricated outer layer of self, and we often speak of letting go of the ego, or dissolving it, or transcending it […]. However, the common usage of ego, both within Buddhist teachings and in the world at large, makes ego sound like an entity that has a shape and a size, and that can be extracted like a tooth. It doesn’t work that way. Ego is not an object; it’s more like a process that follows through on the proclivity for grasping, and for holding on to fixed ideas and identities. What we call ego is really an everchanging perception, and although it is central to our narrative story, it is not a thing. It therefore cannot really die, and cannot be killed or transcended. This tendency for grasping arises when we misperceive the constant flow of our body and mind and mistake it for a solid, unchanging self. We do not need to get rid of the ego—this unchanging, solid, and unhealthy sense of self—because it never existed in the first place. The key point is that there is no ego to kill. It is the belief in an enduring, nonchanging self that dies. The term ego can still provide a useful reference; but we need to be careful not to set ourselves up for battling something that is not there. Ironically, when we go into combat with the ego, we strengthen the illusions of self, making our efforts to awaken counterproductive. Yongey Mingyur Rinpoche, Helen Tworkov - In Love with the World (p. 54)
In other respects, one's acculturation gets in the way, e.g. in the case of 'attachments': harbouring attachments is not a sin, it's simply the human condition. If you read all about the harmful effects attachments can have on your karma and immediately hear a thundering Abrahamic "Thou shalt not have any attachments!" in your head, you've put a huge obstacle in your own path when it comes to removing them by means of gentler methods, if you're only able to think in terms of penance, atonement, and feeling guilty; taking a razor to oneself every time you use "I" or "me" like Crowley recommended (do Thelemites actually do that?!) is no solution either.
Ok, I'll climb down from my pulpit now and let others reply .
No, I've discussed several other things in previous Crowley 'discussions'. In any event, the point is there is a set of teachings which are useless towards handling something (in this case addiction) that real teachings could deal with. Addiction involves continually-fed thoughtforms. If a set of esoteric teachings has no handle on these realities, how are you expecting it to approach something magnitudes of order more difficult- liberation?
Where did I try to pretend Crowley was not addicted to smack ?
Try this . Imagine I am going to write up a little advice for you . In my past , I was a smack addict and that made me turn to all sorts of crime crap and dishonesty ... so I advise you to do these things , that I was first taught ( maybe meditation , yoga , etc , whatever ) ... but DON'T DO SMACK okay ? Its insidious . Look, I even want you to swear an oath , if you are going to follow what I recommend , dont get addicted to drugs ... actually, what might be required is that you make and oath to yourself ... and to your brethren in case you slip up, so they can help you back .
and of course, if that is distasteful to you ... you opt out - no thanks .
By the way ; some smack addicts I have helped to recovery , and helped to look after their kids while they were in the throws of it . And part of my ability , will, and moral fortitude to do this ( it ain't easy , believe me ! ) comes from my initiations and teaching .
You seem to be obfuscating ... or at least getting confused .
(or self, period, and no soul either). Thelema, on the other hand, strikes me as a "Me Me Me!" religion where the spiritual development of the individual, accompanied by an increase in personal power, is paramount and where compassion is seen as a weakness, probably a Nietzschean influence.
This sounds to me like a variant of the common confusion that the injunction to do one's True Will means to "do what you like," i.e. a trivial injunction to act in selfish and self-serving ways, which is categorically missing the mark. Rather, it is an injunction to find and follow the deepest nature of one's being, to "do what you were put on this Earth to do" so to speak. In
From these considerations it should be clear that “Do what thou wilt” does not mean “Do what you like.” It is the apotheosis of Freedom; but it is also the strictest possible bond.
Thelema has a clear spiritual goal of "crossing the Abyss" and dissolving one's sense of separate self into an abiding nondual consciousness-- cognate with the ultimate spiritual goals of any other really deep mystical tradition, although this is often expressed in symbolism that may make it more difficult to appreciate on the surface (e.g. draining every last drop of one's blood into the cup of Babalon, a symbol for surrendering every last aspect of one's separate sense of self to the mystery). In Thelema, those who resist taking this step when the time is ripe and instead cling to their sense of separate self and lust for power are called "black brothers" and are seen as a major spiritual failing to be avoided at all costs.
Thelema also does have a sense of one's duty to others-- see Crowley's work
re: True Self vs No Self, these are arguably best seen as complementary ways of framing the same underlying phenomenon. In nondual awareness, there is a sense in which you could say nothing is you (no self), and there is a sense in which you could say everything is you (true self). There is good extended discussion on this in Daniel Ingram's
Thelema has a clear spiritual goal of "crossing the Abyss" and dissolving one's sense of separate self into an abiding nondual consciousness-- cognate with the ultimate spiritual goals of any other really deep mystical tradition,
lol@ultimate spiritual goal. You're just talking about a particular band of consciousness, one that you could just meditate and achieve and not deal with Crowley's convoluted bric-a-brac.
What the more serious esoteric traditions aim for is create an immortal subtle body. Thelema is out of that loop, instead you get mystical consolation prizes (and that even just theoretically, looking at Thelemites and Crowley themselves)
Hi, I've dabbled over the years in various magical systems and beliefs. However what they ultimately boils down to seems to be achieving (incorrect word) non dual consciousness. Thelema, based on my understanding, expanded by the Baptist's Head trilogy of Alan Chapman and Duncan Barford has the same goal. However it seems overly complicated and verbose. All the qabbalistic correspondences, gematria, the rituals and initiations seem to take a lifetime to go through. So I'm wondering are there among you practitioners that follow thelema and it's current organisations OTO or A.A. as a path towards awakening/ Buddhahood/ Liberation and what insights can you share with us?
The works of thelemites such as James A. Eshelman fascinate me, however I'm a bit of a mess this point in my life and can't seem to figure how to integrate them into my quest for awakening, referred to as the Great Work in these cermonial magical traditions. (Golden Daen, & Thelema). Perheaps I should give up on them altogether for they seem an attachment/distraction for my ego and focus on a more direct contemplative path such as Vajrayana Buddhism, Zazen, Advaita?
Thelema is definitely a valid path, as someone who practices it. There is a lot of jargon, but once you understand it all, it gets really easy and is actually quite organized.
lol@ultimate spiritual goal. You're just talking about a particular band of consciousness, one that you could just meditate and achieve and not deal with Crowley's convoluted bric-a-brac.
What the more serious esoteric traditions aim for is create an immortal subtle body. Thelema is out of that loop, instead you get mystical consolation prizes (and that even just theoretically, looking at Thelemites and Crowley themselves)
There are certainly practices and teachings about creating an immortal subtle body - you just don't know about them or could not discern them . Its about cultivating that aspect ( or those aspects) of 'ourselves' that is called 'The Immortal Osiris ' .
You might want to check out Thelema's earliest origin point, Sabbatean Frankist Kabbalah. Now THAT is some fascinating stuff. It's completely different from Lurianic Kabbalah and the basis for so much in the occult, including Thelema.
There are certainly practices and teachings about creating an immortal subtle body - you just don't know about them or could not discern them . Its about cultivating that aspect ( or those aspects) of 'ourselves' that is called 'The Immortal Osiris ' .
The Magician becomes identical with the immortal Osiris, yet the Magician dies. In this dilemma the facts must be restated. One should preferably say that the Magician becomes conscious of that part of himself which he calls the immortal Osiris; and that Part does not “die”.
Pretty weak and not really what I'm talking about. And the practical application is just the Golden Dawn's Body of Light method lol That don't cut it.
It is pretty cleat , if you didnt know , what is expected to be studied before this simplistic approach is recognized or acknowledged . Also add in all the other stuff people have been presenting from ' Thelemic' literature as well ( comments about dissolving , NUIT etc etc , some have been presented here ).
But the attempt at deconstruction to isolate those parts to invalidate the whole ain't really 'coming off' .
If some one thought they could get this without the preliminary work study and practice , yes, they might come to the same conclusions you did .
Eg . The student must FIRST obtain a thorough knowledge of Book 777, especially of columns i., ii., iii., v., vi., vii., ix., xi., xii., xiv., xv., xvi., xvii., xviii., xix., xxxiv., xxxv., xxxviii., xxxix., xl., xli., xlii., xlv., liv., lv., lix., lx., lxi., lxiii., lxx., lxxv., lxxvii., lxxviii., lxxix., lxxx., lxxxi., lxxxiii., xcvii., xcviii., xcix., c., ci., cxvii., cxviii., cxxxvii., cxxxviii., cxxxix., clxxv., clxxvi., clxxvii., clxxxii.3 When these are committed to memory, he will begin to understand the nature of these correspondences. .... There are three important practices connected with all forms of ceremonial (and the two Methods which later we shall describe). These are: (1) Assumption of God-forms. (2) Vibrations of Divine Names. (3) Rituals of 'Banishing' and invoking. These, at least, should be completely mastered before the dangerous Methods of Chapters V. and VI. are attempted ....The Magical Images of the Gods of Egypt should be made thoroughly familiar. This can be done by studying them in any public museum, or in such books as may be accessible to the student.6 They should then be carefully painted by him, both from the model and from memory...
and so on, just on that level ,...
.... just to do a pentagram ritual .
Or instead you could just wave your arms around in the air and say stuff
regarding other things , I am sure you yourself are aware of suggested reading lists and preliminary curriculum , including yoga and breath, Egyptian Magical concepts, Buddhism, Hinduism ... The Bible etc etc .
Or just wave your hands around in the air and say stuff and 'believe ' part of you will go away and somehow some other part we know nothing about except the chosen term 'Immortal Osiris' survives ... and we do no more .
Because we dont need to know more ... because we never knew , bothered about or dismissed the preliminaries in the first place .
Hi, I've dabbled over the years in various magical systems and beliefs. However what they ultimately boils down to seems to be achieving (incorrect word) non dual consciousness. Thelema, based on my understanding, expanded by the Baptist's Head trilogy of Alan Chapman and Duncan Barford has the same goal. However it seems overly complicated and verbose. All the qabbalistic correspondences, gematria, the rituals and initiations seem to take a lifetime to go through. So I'm wondering are there among you practitioners that follow thelema and it's current organisations OTO or A.A. as a path towards awakening/ Buddhahood/ Liberation and what insights can you share with us?
The works of thelemites such as James A. Eshelman fascinate me, however I'm a bit of a mess this point in my life and can't seem to figure how to integrate them into my quest for awakening, referred to as the Great Work in these cermonial magical traditions. (Golden Daen, & Thelema). Perheaps I should give up on them altogether for they seem an attachment/distraction for my ego and focus on a more direct contemplative path such as Vajrayana Buddhism, Zazen, Advaita?
. If you're looking for Thelema and non-dual tradition related teaching, I'd say go with that and see what happens.
About Enlightenment:
There were some other valid points brought up, like what do you mean by enlightenment: even Buddhist and Hindu conceptions differ, not to mention further eastern and western traditions.
Even words like non-duality can mean something different, as far as I understand it:
in Buddhadharma this means freedom from extremes. The not-two type of non-dual, ie middle way, as per Nagarjuna's tetralemma (to paraphrase, "it doesn't exist, it doesn't not-exist, it's not a combination of the two options, nor an absence of the two")
in Sanatandharma non-duality means monism ("it's all one, it's all god/brahma" etc)
in Christianity it's a variation of monism "it's all one/it's all god" (because of some doctrinal and organisational issues)
In my personal opinion i like the buddhist take, BUT until we begin to experience these things, the debate of the subtleties is not edifying. Go with whatever system seems most natural.
However, I would say that actions have results. I don't believe all paths lead up the same mountain.
So having an idea of what it is you want and then putting the work in to get that specific result is the way to get it.
As a thelemite (or any tradition that includes this concept) the first priority is to contact one's HGA. In other traditions this could be called Agathos daimon / Good Spirit / Paredros (Parhedros) / Threefold Keeper of Man etc. This is a relatively simple process - the particular method you use is moot. No one tradition or method has a monopoly on this, as it is our birthright.
Rufus Opus has a whole free class on HGA/Daimon traditions and how they evolved. Crowley's definition is a rolling-into-one of many concepts, but this idea that we have (a) spiritual helper(s) out there is found all over the world in all ages.
If you're feeling a bit lost or confused, have regular chats with your good spirit. If messages aren't clear, use divination (coin flip, tarot, pendulum, i ching etc - AC was a big fan of i-ching). And then chat more and more with your good spirit. Ask it to send unambiguous messages that you can understand - it already wants to help.
You wrote you want to be free of suffering - so maybe work for a humanitarian cause (saving animals from slaughter, humans from trafficking, healthcare, etc whatever) that aims to reduce suffering in the world. And in your free time, commune as often as possible with the highest intelligence you can (HGA etc), and read spiritual classics (for inspiration biographies of adepts are especially good).
It is pretty cleat , if you didnt know , what is expected to be studied before this simplistic approach is recognized or acknowledged . Also add in all the other stuff people have been presenting from ' Thelemic' literature as well ( comments about dissolving , NUIT etc etc , some have been presented here ).
But the attempt at deconstruction to isolate those parts to invalidate the whole ain't really 'coming off' .
If some one thought they could get this without the preliminary work study and practice , yes, they might come to the same conclusions you did .
Eg . The student must FIRST obtain a thorough knowledge of Book 777, especially of columns i., ii., iii., v., vi., vii., ix., xi., xii., xiv., xv., xvi., xvii., xviii., xix., xxxiv., xxxv., xxxviii., xxxix., xl., xli., xlii., xlv., liv., lv., lix., lx., lxi., lxiii., lxx., lxxv., lxxvii., lxxviii., lxxix., lxxx., lxxxi., lxxxiii., xcvii., xcviii., xcix., c., ci., cxvii., cxviii., cxxxvii., cxxxviii., cxxxix., clxxv., clxxvi., clxxvii., clxxxii.3 When these are committed to memory, he will begin to understand the nature of these correspondences. .... There are three important practices connected with all forms of ceremonial (and the two Methods which later we shall describe). These are: (1) Assumption of God-forms. (2) Vibrations of Divine Names. (3) Rituals of 'Banishing' and invoking. These, at least, should be completely mastered before the dangerous Methods of Chapters V. and VI. are attempted ....The Magical Images of the Gods of Egypt should be made thoroughly familiar. This can be done by studying them in any public museum, or in such books as may be accessible to the student.6 They should then be carefully painted by him, both from the model and from memory...
and so on, just on that level ,...
.... just to do a pentagram ritual .
Or instead you could just wave your arms around in the air and say stuff
regarding other things , I am sure you yourself are aware of suggested reading lists and preliminary curriculum , including yoga and breath, Egyptian Magical concepts, Buddhism, Hinduism ... The Bible etc etc .
Or just wave your hands around in the air and say stuff and 'believe ' part of you will go away and somehow some other part we know nothing about except the chosen term 'Immortal Osiris' survives ... and we do no more .
Because we dont need to know more ... because we never knew , bothered about or dismissed the preliminaries in the first place .
; 
.
