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Zen Sickness

commonvandal

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I’ve just gotten back from a weekend Zazenkai at a zen center in my area. I stayed and did 7 hours of zazen or zen meditation along with a number of other meditation practices. I’ve come back feeling very not myself. Has anyone spent too much time mediating and what did it do to them?
Part of my experience was connected to Makyo or delusions during meditation yhat I’ve been trying to remember and work through. Love to hear other people’s experiences or anything you might have learned in research.
 

Ignotus

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Sounds like you overdid it a bit. I’d take a few days off, sleep, eat properly and do normal everyday things. I also wouldn’t try to remember and work through the makyo, since you’re supposed to let them pass rather than chase them. It’s also a bit weird that the center just sent you home like that without checking in or giving you any advice
 

commonvandal

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Sounds like you overdid it a bit. I’d take a few days off, sleep, eat properly and do normal everyday things. I also wouldn’t try to remember and work through the makyo, since you’re supposed to let them pass rather than chase them. It’s also a bit weird that the center just sent you home like that without checking in or giving you any advice
I think you’re right not to get so caught up in the remembering. I’ve definitely been trying to get back into ‘normal’ life this week. I will say I probably needed to be a bit more vocal about my experience before leaving. Since I left I contacted the center and got a lot of mixed feedback. I had never considered that meditation could have this kind of impact really. It does feel like when I’ve been speaking to more experienced practitioners many people have stories like this and after practicing regularly for two years I wish it was more common to talk about the bad sits or the idk overwhelming sits. Anyways thank you for the support!
 

Omee

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I’ve just gotten back from a weekend Zazenkai at a zen center in my area. I stayed and did 7 hours of zazen or zen meditation along with a number of other meditation practices. I’ve come back feeling very not myself. Has anyone spent too much time mediating and what did it do to them?

This might be helpful in dealing with your condition, the following is the method Hakuin used to treat Zen Sickness:

The Soft-Butter Method
“You [Hakuin] mentioned a method in which butter is used,” I said. “May I ask you about that?”
Master Hakuyu replied, “When a student engaged in meditation finds that he is exhausted in body and mind because the four constituent elements of his body are in a state of disharmony, he should gird up his spirit and perform the following visualisation:


“Imagine that a lump of soft butter, pure in colour and fragrance and the size and shape of a duck egg, is suddenly placed on the top of your head. As it begins to slowly melt, it imparts an exquisite sensation, moistening and saturating your head within and without. It continues to ooze down, moistening your shoulders, elbows, and chest; permeating lungs, diaphragm, liver, stomach, and bowels; moving down the spine through the hips, pelvis, and buttocks.


“At that point, all the congestions that have accumulated within the five organs and six viscera, all the aches and pains in the abdomen and other affected parts, will follow the heart as it sinks downward into the lower body. As it does, you will distinctly hear a sound like that of water trickling from a higher to a lower place. It will move lower down through the lower body, suffusing the legs with beneficial warmth, until it reaches the soles of the feet, where it stops.


“The student should then repeat the contemplation. As his vital energy flows downward, it gradually fills the lower region of the body, suffusing it with penetrating warmth, making him feel as if he were sitting up to his navel in a hot bath filled with a decoction of rare and fragrant medicinal herbs that have been gathered and infused by a skilled physician.


“Inasmuch as all things are created by the mind, when you engage in this contemplation, the nose will actually smell the marvellous scent of pure, soft butter; your body will feel the exquisite sensation of its melting touch. Your body and mind will be in perfect peace and harmony. You will feel better and enjoy greater health than you did as a youth of twenty or thirty. At this time, all the undesirable accumulations in your vital organs and viscera will melt away. Stomach and bowels will function perfectly. Before you know it, your skin will glow with health. If you continue to practise the contemplation with diligence, there is no illness that cannot be cured, no virtue that cannot be acquired, no level of sagehood that cannot be reached, no religious practice that cannot be mastered. Whether such results appear swiftly or slowly depends only upon how scrupulously you apply yourself.


“I was a sickly youth, in much worse shape than you are now. I experienced ten times the suffering you have endured. The doctors finally gave up on me. I explored hundreds of cures on my own, but none of them brought me any relief. I turned to the gods for help. Prayed to the deities of both heaven and earth, begging them for their subtle, imperceptible assistance. I was marvellously blessed. They extended me their support and protection. I came upon this wonderful method of soft-butter contemplation. My joy knew no bounds. I immediately set about practising it with total and single-minded determination. Before even a month was out, my troubles had almost totally vanished. Since that time, I’ve never been the least bit bothered by any complaint, physical or mental.


“I became like an ignoramus, mindless and utterly free of care. I was oblivious to the passage of time. I never knew what day or month it was, even whether it was a leap year or not. I gradually lost interest in the things the world holds dear, soon forgot completely about the hopes and desires and customs of ordinary men and women. In my middle years, I was compelled by circumstance to leave Kyoto and take refuge in the mountains of Wakasa Province. I lived there nearly thirty years, unknown to my fellow men. Looking back on that period of my life, it seems as fleeting and unreal as the dream-life that flashed through Lu-sheng’s slumbering brain.[6]


“Now I live here in this solitary spot in the hills of Shirakawa, far from all human habitation. I have a layer or two of clothing to wrap around my withered old carcass. But even in midwinter, on nights when the cold bites through the thin cotton, I don’t freeze. Even during the months when there are no mountain fruits or nuts for me to gather, and I have no grain to eat, I don’t starve. It is all thanks to this contemplation.
“Young man, you have just learned a secret that you could not use up in a whole lifetime. What more could I teach you?”

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HoldAll

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As I understand Buddhism, delusion is the root of all evil (it's where greed/attraction and hate/aversion stem from, after all) and the number-one delusion is of course the concept of a permanent unchanging Self. Not having a Self is such a counter-intuitive idea that most people will immediately dismiss it as ludicrous, it's not how we experience the world.

One time a very eager meditator claimed here that meditation gave him
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, and although my own practice is much more limited, I've experienced something similar at times. There came a point during empty-mind mediation where it was no longer, "I'm hearing street noises" but "There are street noises", where the feeling was that no subject whatsoever was required to listen to these sounds - which should be contrary to all reason but that's how it appeeard to me; now it's more like hollowness. It's how I got my first inklings that there must be something to that no-self doctrine. It wasn't unpleasant as for the hardcore meditator I mentioned but now I understand what he meant by 'depersonalisation'. I can't even imagine how I would feel after seven hours of meditation, I'd probably be like "Who was that person meditating again"? Losing your sense of self is regarded as a sign of Buddhism but can also be a psychiatric condition.

I used to be quite cynical about human agency and free will anyway but the more I'm immersing myself in Theravada Buddhism, the more I realise how optimistic I had been even in my darkest moments. Buddhism can do that to you. Take any decision you have ever made (including the one attending a weekend retreat!), and a good teacher can pick it apart, demonstrating step by step how it had been conditioned by external factors, your upbringing, your likes and dislikes, etc. It's dehumanising, in a way.

"Working through something" doesn't sound like shikantaza to me, more like Theravadin vipassana where you actively scan your body and your mind. According to Gemini: "Theravada Vipassana meditation does not inherently cause clinical depression, but intense practice can trigger a well-documented phase of profound psychological distress, existential dread, or low mood. In traditional Buddhist teachings, this challenging phase is known as the dukkha ñāṇas (knowledges of suffering)." The conventional wisdom is that you should return to samatha (concentration or calming meditation, what I call 'empty mind') whenever you feel stressed out by vipassana but you might need some time away from meditation altogether and re-adapt to everyday life and fending for your (conventional) self.

Buddhist practice is not without dangers. A guy I once knew who used to go to retreats told me about the term 'zen zombies', people who had (ostensibly) eradicated their passions, as the jargon goes, and as a result looked dull and lifeless. Excessive self-observation can be another trap I frequently find myself in: "You're only doing this because of that, you're only thinking that because of this, etc." I've found that entering a state of empty mind is really the best remedy for such ruminations, beats journalling by a mile.
 
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