Mistaking the Rope for a Snake (hot takes?)

[IllusiveOwl]

I have noticed that many Hindu religions and philosophy boil down to the same conclusion, with Buddhism being the more blunt explination of it. Jnana (Jannism) & Sat Yogas, the Upanishads, the Baghivad Gita, the Spiritual Teachings of Ramana Maharashi, most of the things Ram Dass rambles about... so many gurus and sages from that continent draw their power from the same conclusion, anyone who has done mild research into nonduality would understand the famous metaphor "Mistaking a Rope for a Snake", the divine dance of Leela, etc.

So many people who "realize" this truth say it and spout about it, but they act as though entranced in some kind of drug-induced high. Have they understood it without being ready? Is the truth that the Hindu philosophies trying to get across incorrect? Is it a fount to some and a curse to the unworthy?

I am wondering if any of you that are versed in this line of thinking got any tangible results or powers from putting on the non-duality-goggles, because that looks like a big tangle of madness.

 

[pixel_fortune]

boil down to the same conclusion,

so many gurus and sages from that continent draw their power from the same conclusion

So many people who "realize" this truth

Have they understood it without being ready?

What's the conclusion/truth you're referring to?

("Mistaking a Rope for a Snake" just means "don't jump at shadows" yeah?)

That said i will say that most of the important spiritual and personal realisations I've had would sound, spoken out loud, like obvious cliches.

There are very few secret truths anymore - development consists of finally internalising a message you probably first heard when you were 14. I would sound stoned if i tried to describe how important this internalisation is: "irritations aren't obstacles in the way of my work, they ARE my work - that's what the Stoics meant by the obstacle is the way. But like, i GET IT now."

I don't actually bother sharing these realisations because i know i can only transmit the ideas, which aren't new, not the internal acceptance and integration of the ideas.

Tl;dr spouting obvious platitudes like they're profound can actually be exactly what serious and meaningful development looks like.

 

[IllusiveOwl]

What's the conclusion/truth you're referring to?

("Mistaking a Rope for a Snake" just means "don't jump at shadows" yeah?)

That said i will say that most of the important spiritual and personal realisations I've had would sound, spoken out loud, like obvious cliches.

There are very few secret truths anymore - development consists of finally internalising a message you probably first heard when you were 14. I would sound stoned if i tried to describe how important this internalisation is: "irritations aren't obstacles in the way of my work, they ARE my work - that's what the Stoics meant by the obstacle is the way. But like, i GET IT now."

I don't actually bother sharing these realisations because i know i can only transmit the ideas, which aren't new, not the internal acceptance and integration of the ideas.

Tl;dr spouting obvious platitudes like they're profound can actually be exactly what serious and meaningful development looks like.

The reason I did not want to share what the conclusion was is because of the very thing you were talking about, with it just being said it sounds topical and I fear I wouldn't be able to give it the gravity and seriousness that it deserves.

"Mistaking the Rope for a Snake" has to do with the Hindu metaphysics of dream-reality (the dance of Leela) and is applied to all existence. The Mahyana Buddhists say in the "Lankavatara Sutra (My favorite, it's as dense and hard to read as Simulacra & Simulation) that there is no such thing as death, and no such thing as birth. The Rope is what is happening at this very moment objectively, the Snake is our mental constructs about it, including birth, life, decay, and death, but also identity, possession, essentially anything you think or use words to describe.

This is of course just my understanding, I am not all-knowing or omniscient, just a nerd trying to juggle all these metaphysics. That's a big reason why I am hoping some of you can weigh in

Post automatically merged: May 8, 2024

there is no such thing as death, and no such thing as birth

After a little meditation, I thought of another way to express this in a more digestible and less-blunt way:

In the movie The Matrix, everything that happens in the cyber world is fluctuations of code, blackness and green symbols, yet programs are sentient within it. When a program 'dies', objectively there is no death, just code fracturing in an ocean of code.

 

[Taudefindi]

When a program 'dies', objectively there is no death, just code fracturing in an ocean of code.

Change it's existence from a compact being into an immaterial consciousness.
From the ocean, to a drop of rain, back to the ocean.

 

[Xenophon]

I have noticed that many Hindu religions and philosophy boil down to the same conclusion, with Buddhism being the more blunt explination of it. Jnana (Jannism) & Sat Yogas, the Upanishads, the Baghivad Gita, the Spiritual Teachings of Ramana Maharashi, most of the things Ram Dass rambles about... so many gurus and sages from that continent draw their power from the same conclusion, anyone who has done mild research into nonduality would understand the famous metaphor "Mistaking a Rope for a Snake", the divine dance of Leela, etc.

So many people who "realize" this truth say it and spout about it, but they act as though entranced in some kind of drug-induced high. Have they understood it without being ready? Is the truth that the Hindu philosophies trying to get across incorrect? Is it a fount to some and a curse to the unworthy?

I am wondering if any of you that are versed in this line of thinking got any tangible results or powers from putting on the non-duality-goggles, because that looks like a big tangle of madness.

I suppose one practical benefit would be facing extreme situations with relative aplomb. Von Ungern-Sternberg was a (highly-idiosyncratic) Buddhist. His ideologically hostile executioners noted that he went off to the firing squad with the air of a man excusing himself to go wash his hands, "I will be back presently." Here, though, the benefit is social and psychological, not magickal per se.

 

[IllusiveOwl]

Change it's existence from a compact being into an immaterial consciousness.
From the ocean, to a drop of rain, back to the ocean.

Ah, but throughout that whole process, it is still the one objective ocean, the only thing that is changing in the metaphor you've given is subjective perspective! The ocean Mistaking itself as a small part of itself, a knot in itself, an illusion like a snake metaphysically imposed onto a rope.

Post automatically merged: May 9, 2024

I suppose one practical benefit would be facing extreme situations with relative aplomb. Von Ungern-Sternberg was a (highly-idiosyncratic) Buddhist. His ideologically hostile executioners noted that he went off to the firing squad with the air of a man excusing himself to go wash his hands, "I will be back presently." Here, though, the benefit is social and psychological, not magickal per se.

I see what you mean with aplomb, it makes life easier and less stressful if you just see it as a continuous string of dreams with no real stakes.

Would you see any possible way of integrating this philosophy with Magic, or magical operations? From what I've seen people who stake their claim in this philosophy claim abilities like Astral projection, levitation, telekinesis, telepathy, all that stuff, but don't claim to be magical in thought or action.

 

[pixel_fortune]

The reason I did not want to share what the conclusion was

Fair enough, but I can't give an opinion on something if I don't know what it is!

 

[IllusiveOwl]

Fair enough, but I can't give an opinion on something if I don't know what it is!

I was seeking for people who are already versed in this Indian line of thinking:

I am wondering if any of you that are versed in this line of thinking

 

[that]

English is not my first language, so please know i mean well!here i go!The answer to your question is years of teachings under a good Guru(which is an oxymoron) and a lot of practice..Dance of Leela and Dance of Maya is 2 differnt annimals.The thing that you trying to say,in my understanding, is the Dance of Maya,the illusionary nature of this realm and the phenomena that are generated in it.The realazation of the truth of the above statement is the sum of a lot of practice(shadana) ,meditation and renunciation.the meditation practices of advanced yogis have as a side effect the bliss like state that you may referring to as a drug induced high(which actually is naturally produced mdma).Most of the modern so called Gurus and practitioners are kinda fakeing it and thats why sometimes it comes forth as BS.Non duality is a state .In sadhana which is the practice you do,you invoke the deity with the coresponting yantra (sigil)and the deity blesses you with siddhis(supernatural powers)after you complete what is required .The meditation on the deity is what brings forth the "practical" aspect of non duality.In esoteric eastern traditions(especially tantric paths) you are the deity ,the deity is you and everything is the deity(your pet,the passengers on a buss,all sounds are the mantra of the deity etc)I think under this prism is easier to understand.You should also consider that non duality,dzogchen and mahamundra are the most advanced stages in sanatan dharma tantra and vajrayana(tantric budhism)It is something noone who has achieve something like that will go around braging about it ,it is strictly an experience and all the metaphors are not even close to the real thing.I trully hope that this rant helps you even a little

 

[IllusiveOwl]

English is not my first language, so please know i mean well!here i go!The answer to your question is years of teachings under a good Guru(which is an oxymoron) and a lot of practice..Dance of Leela and Dance of Maya is 2 differnt annimals.The thing that you trying to say,in my understanding, is the Dance of Maya,the illusionary nature of this realm and the phenomena that are generated in it.The realazation of the truth of the above statement is the sum of a lot of practice(shadana) ,meditation and renunciation.the meditation practices of advanced yogis have as a side effect the bliss like state that you may referring to as a drug induced high(which actually is naturally produced mdma).Most of the modern so called Gurus and practitioners are kinda fakeing it and thats why sometimes it comes forth as BS.Non duality is a state .In sadhana which is the practice you do,you invoke the deity with the coresponting yantra (sigil)and the deity blesses you with siddhis(supernatural powers)after you complete what is required .The meditation on the deity is what brings forth the "practical" aspect of non duality.In esoteric eastern traditions(especially tantric paths) you are the deity ,the deity is you and everything is the deity(your pet,the passengers on a buss,all sounds are the mantra of the deity etc)I think under this prism is easier to understand.You should also consider that non duality,dzogchen and mahamundra are the most advanced stages in sanatan dharma tantra and vajrayana(tantric budhism)It is something noone who has achieve something like that will go around braging about it ,it is strictly an experience and all the metaphors are not even close to the real thing.I trully hope that this rant helps you even a little

Most of my concerns came from the conclusion that none of this is real and that it's all simply an immaterial and inconsequential dream. Most of this draws from the book "Spiritual Teachings of Ramana Maharashi.

I think I understand what he is saying, the thing is I'm hoping people have something to say that's more enlightening than "All of this is just matter washing around and we've been foolish enough to attach a story to it."

I am also drawing heavily off of the Jana Yoga book by Swami Vivikenanda.

 

[Voidking]

"Mistaking a Rope for a Snake" means our exprience of the world as human beings is not "absolute" and is conditioned by our sensory perceptions and mental conditioning. Believing oneself being a "soul" in a "body" inside a "universe" in space and time is, in an absolute sense", an illusion, the illusion of Maya, but in a relative sense, from the perspective of human beings, the world is REAL. Think of it this way, when you dream, the entire dream is inside your mind, you are the dreamer, the dream itself, the characters of the dream. Now apply that to the external world, the external world is a dream in the "One Mind", "Brahman" or whatever you call it.

Achieving a state of non-duality or Nirvikalpa Samadhi, could be, but is not, similar to tripping on big dose of psychedelics and expriencing what people term as "EGO DEATH". People in the non-dual state have lost their sense of self-identify and cannot identify with the body-mind, they cannot identify with anything and therefore they are everything and nothing. When the mind comes to a stillness, the ego ceases to exist, as the ego is the movement of the mind. Stillness does not necessarily means no movement whatsoever, but could be stillness in movement.

"Yoga chitta vritti nirodha", meaning yoga is the cessation of the fluctuation of the mind/whirpool of the mind, when than happens, the illusion of the experiencer/self dissapears, and you simply becaume what "is" happening here and now.

It doesn't have to be blissful/emotional state, it could simply be a state of no-mind, just being with whatever arises and passes away, in a field of equanimity and love.

Vedanta, Yoga and Buddhism view the world as Maya/illusion, the play of Leela, but Tantrics view the world as the creative manifestation of Kundalini Shakti.
Wisdom says I'm nothing, Love says I'm everything, and my life alternates in between, Vedanta is nothing, Tantra is everything.
To each his own path.

 

[that]

"Mistaking a Rope for a Snake" means our exprience of the world as human beings is not "absolute" and is conditioned by our sensory perceptions and mental conditioning. Believing oneself being a "soul" in a "body" inside a "universe" in space and time is, in an absolute sense", an illusion, the illusion of Maya, but in a relative sense, from the perspective of human beings, the world is REAL. Think of it this way, when you dream, the entire dream is inside your mind, you are the dreamer, the dream itself, the characters of the dream. Now apply that to the external world, the external world is a dream in the "One Mind", "Brahman" or whatever you call it.

Achieving a state of non-duality or Nirvikalpa Samadhi, could be, but is not, similar to tripping on big dose of psychedelics and expriencing what people term as "EGO DEATH". People in the non-dual state have lost their sense of self-identify and cannot identify with the body-mind, they cannot identify with anything and therefore they are everything and nothing. When the mind comes to a stillness, the ego ceases to exist, as the ego is the movement of the mind. Stillness does not necessarily means no movement whatsoever, but could be stillness in movement.

"Yoga chitta vritti nirodha", meaning yoga is the cessation of the fluctuation of the mind/whirpool of the mind, when than happens, the illusion of the experiencer/self dissapears, and you simply becaume what "is" happening here and now.

It doesn't have to be blissful/emotional state, it could simply be a state of no-mind, just being with whatever arises and passes away, in a field of equanimity and love.

Vedanta, Yoga and Buddhism view the world as Maya/illusion, the play of Leela, but Tantrics view the world as the creative manifestation of Kundalini Shakti.
Wisdom says I'm nothing, Love says I'm everything, and my life alternates in between, Vedanta is nothing, Tantra is everything.
To each his own path.

Best explanation ! Vajrayana is a mix of buddhism ,tantra,shamanish and vedanta ..up to a point you do your yogas,shadhanas etc and after that you go "Vedanta" or in the tradition i am familiar with dzogchen.

Post automatically merged: Jun 3, 2024

Most of my concerns came from the conclusion that none of this is real and that it's all simply an immaterial and inconsequential dream. Most of this draws from the book "Spiritual Teachings of Ramana Maharashi.

I think I understand what he is saying, the thing is I'm hoping people have something to say that's more enlightening than "All of this is just matter washing around and we've been foolish enough to attach a story to it."

I am also drawing heavily off of the Jana Yoga book by Swami Vivikenan

So you are very familiar with all the consept!I was mistaken .Have you read Ramana Maharashi's "Who am I?" or and "Self-Enquiry" .Highly recommended!

 

[Mars]

The world is like a city seen in a mirror right?

 

[that]

the world is an illusion and there are eight analogies of illusion in tibetan buddhism .reflections in mirror, moon in water, echoes, rainbows, dreams, city of

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, mirages, magical illusions created by a magician.each one of those has further analysis.you can google them.

 

[Xenophon]

The world is like a city seen in a mirror right?

Taking that and running with it, Ernest DeSchoening had, "a memory of the dream of a shadow of a cloud." His, Cratylus Comes to Uz, I think.

 

[IllusiveOwl]

The world is like a city seen in a mirror right?

I believe in the Lankavatara Sutra, they say it's less than that, because that assumes there is a real source. They liken it to a mirage seen in the desert, and entire city populated by beings that is entirely unreal aside from its appearance of realness. If you want a reference, they say specifically its like the "City of the Gandharvas". That the "ignorant and simple minded" take to be real out of their desires for real things. The Sutra's a bit mean not gunna lie

 

[that]

this channel has a ton of audiobooks on the subject, from many tradition ,Vedata ,mahayana,vajrayana and more take a look and if you find anything intresting try listening while meditating

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and if you like start with this

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[IllusiveOwl]

this channel has a ton of audiobooks on the subject, from many tradition ,Vedata ,mahayana,vajrayana and more take a look and if you find anything intresting try listening while meditating

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and if you like start with this

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I can't recommend this channel enough either, they have so much good stuff, great suggestions @that !

 

[that]

Glad you already know about it Owl!The only advice ,dont try to conceptualize it just let it flow.its an experiential process.enjoy!

 

[HocusPocus]

Really skeptical of it t be honest. The idea that our struggles and suffering are mere 'delusions' and that we really 'enjoy' it but your pain system is meant for you to survive and probably without it most species wouldn't exist.

That's why suicide is looked down upon because it's an 'end' to your suffering in this life. Even if it were true it wouldn't make the God of the Universe just or fair just powerful.