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[Opinion] What really happened to John Dee and Edward Kelley?

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Mashreqi

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What is your opinion about the story of John Dee and Edward Kelley did they really talk to the angels of God or were they deceived by a demonic entity I feel like you can never be sure about it
Perhaps according to the Gnostic tradition they were deceived by a false godof course if God even exists
 

Fausto

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What is your opinion about the story of John Dee and Edward Kelley did they really talk to the angels of God or were they deceived by a demonic entity I feel like you can never be sure about it
Perhaps according to the Gnostic tradition they were deceived by a false godof course if God even exists
It can have happened, but I do suggest you try enoquian magic. You must have your own visions on that, not for others.
 

Frater R.P.G.

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What happened to them ? They fell out with each other after the angel told them to swap wives ;)
This is a popular opinion, but it is actually not true. Some scholars assume that, because shortly after the "wife swap" the surviving records of Dee's spiritual diary end. The last few surviving records with Kelly as the scryer mention a series of 7 actions culminating in 6 month intervals, of which the last record was the third. If we then look at Dee's private diary, we can see mentions of actions at those intervals. So we can be quite sure that Dee and Kelly continued working together all the way until Dee had to return to England 2 years later.
 

dcwilson

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What is your opinion about the story of John Dee and Edward Kelley did they really talk to the angels of God or were they deceived by a demonic entity I feel like you can never be sure about it
Perhaps according to the Gnostic tradition they were deceived by a false godof course if God even exists
John Dee was brilliant and was employed be Elizabeth I as her spy chief (007) and magician. What he did, scrying and angelic magic, worked well enough that Liz kept him employed. She had an uneasy crown on her head and she needed what we would call remote viewing and other magic to stay ahead of her enemies. So, he broke the ciphers of her imprisoned sister, and did a lot of spy stuff with his theories on magic. What happened to them was King James I; a devout Christian and self-proclaimed authority on Witches who would have none of it. He needed no spy chief and naturally looked down askence on "sorcerers", so Dee and Kelly were tossed aside by him into the streets and died broke. A similiar thing happened with the US Government's remote viewing program. A rabid Christcuck was put in charge of the Stargate program and it's funding, and wanted nothing to do with it - results didn't matter - only his religion did. I think Dee did communicate with angels, not bad 'ol debbils.
 

Firetree

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yeah ... hence the ;)

my 2nd sentence in post 3 might be more relevant in regard to post 1 - what do you think ?
 

r4zorenigma

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These dudes just end up leaving the occult after a while and living a traditional life... Same way I did.. ofc I'm not too old yet.. and have recently gotten back into some of my practices.. but--ultimately you reach a point where life is peachy, you have relationships you need to tend to, hobbies outside of the occult, obligations, social life, family life,

John Dee recorded much of his life and was a big time nerd, loved to write alot and owned thousands of books and such.. Despite all his knowledge.. he dealt with regular problems and nuisances in his life, people getting sick around him, problems with peolpe he employed leaving, regular issues with his wife and all.. ended up having money problems and whatnot .. Besides that he would travel and live an ordinary life for the most part..


Kelly was the more eccentric weird one of the two.. But he also just ended up traveling, tending to family until his status blew up, got popular, became a socialite and coralled around as some major alchemist/magician for a while but ended up in prison , got sick and his death is a mystery..


That's why I preach nowadays to not get into nonsense and learn occult arts and rather take a more practical approach to life.. A simple life is the best life.. All this juju bullshit is a form of self hypnosis really.. Do spirits exist? You bet they do.. But the spirits that exist, besides angelic ones, youreally do not want to put faith into.. they hate humans and are jealous of us.. they only work for us because we bind them to-- the fact that we can bring them to us makes them think we are powerful magicians.. but the wiser of them know we are nothing in their realm.
 

Mashreqi

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What happened to them ? They fell out with each other after the angel told them to swap wives ;)

I think this question throws you back to your other thread .
Why should God want them to share each other's spouses with one another to gain his approval this is very strange if that God's angels descend upon me and ask for something that goes against my ethics I will not follow them this is just like selling oneself I prefer to stand by my principles rather than a God who can fulfill anything
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These dudes just end up leaving the occult after a while and living a traditional life... Same way I did.. ofc I'm not too old yet.. and have recently gotten back into some of my practices.. but--ultimately you reach a point where life is peachy, you have relationships you need to tend to, hobbies outside of the occult, obligations, social life, family life,

John Dee recorded much of his life and was a big time nerd, loved to write alot and owned thousands of books and such.. Despite all his knowledge.. he dealt with regular problems and nuisances in his life, people getting sick around him, problems with peolpe he employed leaving, regular issues with his wife and all.. ended up having money problems and whatnot .. Besides that he would travel and live an ordinary life for the most part..


Kelly was the more eccentric weird one of the two.. But he also just ended up traveling, tending to family until his status blew up, got popular, became a socialite and coralled around as some major alchemist/magician for a while but ended up in prison , got sick and his death is a mystery..


That's why I preach nowadays to not get into nonsense and learn occult arts and rather take a more practical approach to life.. A simple life is the best life.. All this juju bullshit is a form of self hypnosis really.. Do spirits exist? You bet they do.. But the spirits that exist, besides angelic ones, youreally do not want to put faith into.. they hate humans and are jealous of us.. they only work for us because we bind them to-- the fact that we can bring them to us makes them think we are powerful magicians.. but the wiser of them know we are nothing in their realm.
That was a beautiful and wise opinion so you are saying they communicated with evil spirits then why did they also help them and teach them many things was this in exchange for worship and doing the deeds they wanted like a deal and maybe many religions were formed this way by humans encountering such spirits
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It can have happened, but I do suggest you try enoquian magic. You must have your own visions on that, not for others.
I will definitely practice Enochian magic but it is too early for me what is your experience of using it
 
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julio

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The issue with critiques of things that so many people have now based the entirety of their magical efforts on is that they tend to not want to see their problems. Kelley recanted testimonials upon complaints by Dee. IIRC, this is mentioned in the preface of Practical Angel Magic of Dr. John Dee's Enochian Tables. Recanting a testimony would, in any spirit society that I know of, get you immediately disqualified from the position and all testimonials dismissed.

Alas… Dee seemed unphased by it.
 

r4zorenigma

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Why should God want them to share each other's spouses with one another to gain his approval this is very strange if that God's angels descend upon me and ask for something that goes against my ethics I will not follow them this is just like selling oneself I prefer to stand by my principles rather than a God who can fulfill anything
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That was a beautiful and wise opinion so you are saying they communicated with evil spirits then why did they also help them and teach them many things was this in exchange for worship and doing the deeds they wanted like a deal and maybe many religions were formed this way by humans encountering such spirits
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I will definitely practice Enochian magic but it is too early for me what is your experience of using it
I think both of them preferred working with angels.. however Kelly being the more eccentric and experimental might have gone off the deep end.. Much of his later life is a mystery and he was riddled with issues in the last portion of his life. My schpeel about spirits and demons was more or less just a basic warning to anyone reading to understand while these infernal spirits will help us and can take kind to us-- they hate the existence of and are jealous of humankind.. so they are not to be trusted. The infernal spirits / dmeons help because essentially you are binding them to do work.. The very essence of humans working with them is believed to be favorable for them-- but bargains are made.. contracts are signed.. They don't just help to help.. theres an exchange-- and plus, alot of times, the deeper a practicioner gets in his connection to a demon -- they often want you to do things in the physical that will benefit the demon and their spiritual warfare..

ie: the smallest example I can think of is in south America I met a magician who was apart of a tribe taht practiced witchcraft.. They worked with a patron demon they did rituals for often..Very extravagant, messy rituals,, usually alot of noise, smoke, sacrifice of animals, and blood.. The demon eventually asked them to build a parish in their town in their name.. Later I heard that parish was used to sacrifice children... which was very uncommon in that area with anyone.. Never trust a demon. If you utilize them for help, be very strict in your contract and c ommand, and then leave and go separate ways. Never form too deep of a bond or trust them to enter your body, or your space.. Always keep them bound in the triangle or material vessel of your choice.. usually brass.
 

Frater M.M.

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Why should God want them to share each other's spouses with one another to gain his approval

It's a great question. I have no idea.

What is your opinion about the story of John Dee and Edward Kelley did they really talk to the angels of God or were they deceived by a demonic entity I feel like you can never be sure about it
Perhaps according to the Gnostic tradition they were deceived by a false godof course if God even exists

I'm not a Dee expert, so this is just my take. He seems to have had a brilliant mind, been a meticulous note keeper. However, a terrible scientist (by modern standards) in some ways. His methodology was deeply flawed, IMO. He basically seems to have loaded the development of almost all of the material we call Enochian onto one person: Kelley (I'm aware he used other scryers before Kelley, so correct me if this is too strong).

We have no idea how much of or which bits of Kelley's results/reports came from angels, demons, God, the Demiurge, his own mind/personality, trolling, wish fulfilment, etc. At least if Dee had had multiple ppl working on it independently at the same time under similar ritual conditions, he could have started comparing notes and triangulating towards something independent of any one scryer and their individual biases/limitations.
 

Firetree

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Why should God want them to share each other's spouses with one another to gain his approval this is very strange if that God's angels descend upon me and ask for something that goes against my ethics I will not follow them this is just like selling oneself I prefer to stand by my principles rather than a God who can fulfill anything

I'm not sure if that was a question or not . Anyway, I will 'run with it' .

In either case their 'communication' was typically magical , in that ;

ie . Kelly was 'part charlatan' , yet Dee was smart and should have been able to judge that . Some of their results were suspect and others 'curious' ... maybe Kelley was a 'savant' lacking in some areas ( like paying debts, certainly ;) ) yet having knowledge that would have been at least difficult for him ? Then there is the issue of the strange constructed language and the backwards dictation ( an immense mind would be needed for that ... or at least an immense unconscious - which we all have ... but savants can do things like that ) .

Also the issue that Dee never got anything himself , it came through Kelley. Also the common issue of what starts off good can soon be corrupted .

And the angels ... why assume you know what they were ? ' God's Angels ' ? ... what sort ? Dee's angels where of two hierarchies and one was based on the Elizabethan court models of the time .

Yes, amateur 'magicians' that don't like study and historical background and context can have opinions too .... but they can end up all over the place and be very ill informed , leading to strange postulations and assumptions .
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It's a great question. I have no idea.

It looks like you just assumed they were 'God's angels' too .

Who ever said they were ?

I'm not a Dee expert, so this is just my take. He seems to have had a brilliant mind, been a meticulous note keeper. However, a terrible scientist (by modern standards) in some ways. His methodology was deeply flawed, IMO. He basically seems to have loaded the development of almost all of the material we call Enochian onto one person: Kelley (I'm aware he used other scryers before Kelley, so correct me if this is too strong).

We have no idea how much of or which bits of Kelley's results/reports came from angels, demons, God, the Demiurge, his own mind/personality, trolling, wish fulfilment, etc. At least if Dee had had multiple ppl working on it independently at the same time under similar ritual conditions, he could have started comparing notes and triangulating towards something independent of any one scryer and their individual biases/limitations.

Ahhhh ... ' now yer talkin' (y)
 
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