Book Discussion 48 Laws of Power

[Pyrokar]

Throw away the 48 laws, get yourself a
The Master of Ballantrae. novel. Best trade in the world

 

[Ziran]

LAW 1 - NEVER OUTSHINE THE MASTER

This one immediately stands out as a "hard-no" for me. The ideal, imo, is that the student surpasses the master, then the master becomes the student learning from the one who has outshined them. Then the student ( who was previously the master ) surpasses the master ( who is previously the student . The roles reverse again, and, again, and, again producing an ascending spiral.

Outside of the master-disciple relationship, in "real-life", this occurs moment to moment. The roles reverse all the time. The result is everyone has something to teach and everyone has something to learn. Everyone is simultaneously master and student.

And.

There is nothing more rewarding for the benevolent master than when their student achieves at the highest levels "outshining" them. If the student NEVER outshines the master, then, the benevolent master is being robbed of this, their greatest reward.

However.

I suppose from within a more complex power structure, it's better to avoid "outshining" a master in a way which undermines their authority, embarasses them, or encourages them to be antagontistic towards oneself.

Therefore.

If the intention is individual ascension within the power structure, perhaps rule#1 makes sense. This individual, in the corporate world is identified as "not a team-player". They want to climb the ladder of power. If the intention is ascension as a team, then rule#1 does not make sense, but, it's important to consider that, maybe, not all members of the team are "team-players".

From this, the book might be helpful for identifying when indviduals on a team are operating as team-players and when they are not.

 

[Ancient]

This one immediately stands out as a "hard-no" for me. The ideal, imo, is that the student surpasses the master, then the master becomes the student learning from the one who has outshined them. Then the student ( who was previously the master ) surpasses the master ( who is previously the student . The roles reverse again, and, again, and, again producing an ascending spiral.

Outside of the master-disciple relationship, in "real-life", this occurs moment to moment. The roles reverse all the time. The result is everyone has something to teach and everyone has something to learn. Everyone is simultaneously master and student.

And.

There is nothing more rewarding for the benevolent master than when their student achieves at the highest levels "outshining" them. If the student NEVER outshines the master, then, the benevolent master is being robbed of this, their greatest reward.

However.

I suppose from within a more complex power structure, it's better to avoid "outshining" a master in a way which undermines their authority, embarasses them, or encourages them to be antagontistic towards oneself.

Therefore.

If the intention is individual ascension within the power structure, perhaps rule#1 makes sense. This individual, in the corporate world is identified as "not a team-player". They want to climb the ladder of power. If the intention is ascension as a team, then rule#1 does not make sense, but, it's important to consider that, maybe, not all members of the team are "team-players".

From this, the book might be helpful for identifying when indviduals on a team are operating as team-players and when they are not.

Gotta know when to break the rules as well. Best not to outshine the master while circumstances suggest you still require their assistance, but when the time comes to move on be willing to change the dynamic.

A handful of these applied tactfully can prevent enemies from being created, thereby eliminating power struggles and making the rest of the rules redundant in the process. I've seen a few power hungry types in my life shoot at shadows and complain the bullets went right through.

 

[Roma]

The ideal, imo, is that the student surpasses the master, then the master becomes the student learning

That seems to me to be a bottom-up human-centric view

What if the student and the master are anchors for threads of light from the same galactic entity?

 

[Konsciencia]

Not my cup of Tea.

 

[Ziran]

What if the student and the master are anchors for threads of light from the same galactic entity?

The correct answer to any "what-if" question in this form is: "it depends".

Is the galactic entity eternal?

 

[Roma]

I was using "galactic" as shorthand for the many levels of manifested Existence.

And yet, the standard human appears to me to contain a thread that emerges before Existence

 

[Ziran]

I was using "galactic" as shorthand for the many levels of manifested Existence.

And yet, the standard human appears to me to contain a thread that emerges before Existence

That doesn't directly answer the question regarding whether or not the galatic entity is temporal. Athough, what you wrote about the human's emergence before existence gives the needed specificity.

What if the student and the master are anchors for threads of light from the same galactic entity?

If the student and the master both emerge "prior" to existence, then, they are always and forever anchors. Emergence "prior" to existence presumes a non-empty realm of non-existence as contrasted to an absolutely empty realm of non-existence. If the realm of non-existence is not empty, then, any and all emergent events in that realm are eternal, because, the flowing of time is an emergent phenomenon in existence. Lacking a flow of time, the emergence event of the master and the emergence event of the student are both ongoing always and forever. These events that are in the realm of non-existence have no beginnings and no endings, although they do have a cause. ( "prior" is in quotes because there is no "prior" to existence. That word is out of context. )

In my tradition this non-empty realm of non-existence is imagined as "the realm of thoughts which have not yet been spoken".

If the master and the student are always and forever emerging, then they are always and forever anchors regardless of any events occuring in the realm of existence.

 

[Roma]

If the student and the master both emerge "prior" to existence, then, they are always and forever anchors

I suspect there are two aspects to this:

- soul-bearing entity (human in this case) may have its origin before Existence, so that it contains a thread of Beingness (that seems to anchor near the physical heart)

- the thread-bearing entity may separately agree to anchor lines of light from one or more cosmic entities. I have seen humans with several lines of light. All those I have asked, have irregular heart beats, apparently because the multiple lines of light have differing frequencies thus generating a cancelling/reinforcing pulsation.

When I look at sacred trees over my back fence: some anchor lines of light from the galactic Logos but any threads of Beingness seem to slide past them into the earth

 

[DiLoco_DelEted]

Let's talk about the other side of the powerful. What do the powerless do?

 

[Xenophon]

lots of these sound AWFUL.

Three of the four you list are pretty much common sense. Using enemies instead of friends sounds a bit convoluted (and Greene's treatment of it scarcely shows any particular mastery.) What started to trouble me around Chapter 6 is that Greene's idol seems to be P.T. Barnum---he cites the showman at least as often as any other authority.

Post automatically merged: Nov 18, 2023

Let's talk about the other side of the powerful. What do the powerless do?

Become vassals to their liege or turn merc.

 

[Roma]

What do the powerless do?

They believe they are powerless until they learn otherwise.

I know a woman that was taught religious chants asking for help for all sorts of ordinary things.

Eventually she understood that she had spiritual authority to deal with energies.

She said: It is wonderful to be able to do things rather than pray

 

[Laraby]

One of the best (brief) descriptions of this book that I read is that it should have been titled;
The 48 Laws of POLITICAL Power.
It all makes more sense when you think about it that way.

 

[Xenophon]

One of the best (brief) descriptions of this book that I read is that it should have been titled;
The 48 Laws of POLITICAL Power.
It all makes more sense when you think about it that way.

That'd work, IF one understood "political" here in the very broad sense. Politics as stretching (flowing?) from the Kremlin and Capitol Hill all the way through the workplace and into ordinary folks' daily give-and-take in the car lot, fish market, bedroom (bus station men's room?), and kiddy-garden playground.

 

[Laraby]

Let's talk about the other side of the powerful. What do the powerless do?

These days they get a disproportionate level of leverage and ability to manipulate by playing the victim.

 

[Xenophon]

These days they get a disproportionate level of leverage and ability to manipulate by playing the victim.

Like I keep saying: whoever I'm not allowed to criticize acquires power from that fact alone. "To the victims belong the spoils." Did brazen ol' Brennus still stride the earth, he'd be bellowing, "Vae victores!"

 

[DiLoco_DelEted]

Okay ... Back to the OP.

What are practical applications for the average underdog like me?

Let's start with number one, Never outshine the master. Why not? What happens if we do? Why shouldn't they be tested? Why shouldn't they be dethroned?

 

[Ancient]

Okay ... Back to the OP.

What are practical applications for the average underdog like me?

Let's start with number one, Never outshine the master. Why not? What happens if we do? Why shouldn't they be tested? Why shouldn't they be dethroned?

I think this is best understood by considering a teacher/student relationship rather than the word "Master". If your skill or experience is greater than that of your teacher, you should not allow yourself to remain in the role of student; it limits progress. Does this mean you should overthrow your teacher when you can no longer learn from them? Probably not! Best to thank them for their time and find a more skillful instructor.

In most modern practical circumstances disregarding this particular law will not have drastic consequences, it will just slow you down.

 

[Xenophon]

I'm near the book's end. It could have been half its length and been twice as entertaining. On the whole, it reads like what you'd get if Malcolm Gladwell had been locked by mistake in the NYU library over a long weekend. One Blinks! through one's reading glasses. One struts away proud of how much smarter one feels...until the first interlocutor demands, "Would you explain that last remark?"

 

[DiLoco_DelEted]

My point of question was a hope to practically put into everyday use no matter who the master or non master is.
Politicians seem to use these everyday.
Managers seem to use these everyday.
Lawyers seem to use these everyday.
Insurers seem to use these everyday.
Psychiatrists seek to use them as well.

So why not usurp the masters?
Whose life is it for all of us?

Perhaps number one is a complicated matter. Moving on to number two...

Post automatically merged: Nov 25, 2023

For easy reference...
LAW 1 - NEVER OUTSHINE THE MASTER

LAW 2 - NEVER PUT TOO MUCH TRUST IN FRIENDS, LEARN HOW TO USE ENEMIES

LAW 3 - CONCEAL YOUR INTENTIONS

LAW 4 - ALWAYS SAY LESS THAN NECESSARY

LAW 5 - SO MUCH DEPENDS ON REPUTATION—GUARD IT WITH YOUR LIFE

LAW 6 - COURT ATTENTION AT ALL COST

LAW 7 - GET OTHERS TO DO THE WORK FOR YOU, BUT ALWAYS TAKE THE CREDIT

LAW 8 - MAKE OTHER PEOPLE COME TO YOU—USE BAIT IF NECESSARY

LAW 9 - WIN THROUGH YOUR ACTIONS, NEVER THROUGH ARGUMENT

LAW 10 - INFECTION: AVOID THE UNHAPPY AND UNLUCKY

LAW 11 - LEARN TO KEEP PEOPLE DEPENDENT ON YOU

LAW 12 - USE SELECTIVE HONESTY AND GENEROSITY TO DISARM YOUR VICTIM

LAW 13 - WHEN ASKING FOR HELP, APPEAL TO PEOPLE’S SELF-INTEREST, NEVER TO THEIR ...

LAW 14 - POSE AS A FRIEND, WORK AS A SPY

LAW 15 - CRUSH YOUR ENEMY TOTALLY

LAW 16 - USE ABSENCE TO INCREASE RESPECT AND HONOR

LAW 17 - KEEP OTHERS IN SUSPENDED TERROR: CULTIVATE AN AIR OF UNPREDICTABILITY

LAW 18 - DO NOT BUILD FORTRESSES TO PROTECT YOURSELF—ISOLATION IS DANGEROUS

LAW 19 - KNOW WHO YOU’RE DEALING WITH—DO NOT OFFEND THE WRONG PERSON

LAW 20 - DO NOT COMMIT TO ANYONE

LAW 21 - PLAY A SUCKER TO CATCH A SUCKER—SEEM DUMBER THAN YOUR MARK

LAW 22 - USE THE SURRENDER TACTIC: TRANSFORM WEAKNESS INTO POWER

LAW 23 - CONCENTRATE YOUR FORCES

LAW 24 - PLAY THE PERFECT COURT