A Intentionally silly Theodicy. Suffering exists because Leviathan.

[TimeLostMage]

Theodicy: A belief over why there could be a unjust world full of suffering if god is good.

So, you have heard all the classic theodicy's. Evil is nessecary for free will. whatever the hell Calvanists are up to. Etc etc. I have a second theory, one that states.

"God has ejected suffering into the world because he began to resent us" And why does god resent us?
"God Resents us because we are going to eat gods pet fish.

So, lets begin.

one, god is less than he was before. God, at the beggining was infinite and good and perfect. The problem is, we know god created something because we exist. God then must have made a hole in himself for all of creation. This will be relevant later.

Second thing, god has a favorite and its leviathan.

In the talmud, Rav Yehuda says theres 12 hours a day, 3 of them are spent playing with leviathan. We know that leviathan is a big fish of some sort, possibly a sea serpent. Rav Yehuda specifically says that god plays with leviathan "like a pet" god loves leviathan, Leviathan takes up a quarter of this time. This got me thinking.

In the book of Job, when god asks why evil exists in the world. God spends a weirldly long time on leviathan. I could put the text here, but you could google it yourself. But like, a good paragraph of ranting is describing what it would be like to fish out leviathan from the sea. God talks alot about how Job would never be able to understand what its like to drag leviathan out of the sea. This is part of his answer to why Job suffers despite being good.

god, clearly, deeply loves leviathan. More than beheamoth, or the beast of the sky that nobody talks about{it's named ziz and that ones my favorite <|:}

So, heres the proposed theory. If we can trust the new testimate as a source, we are going to have to eat leviathan at end of time, spalm 74:14. We are going to eat leviathan. Gods favorite creature. When god made his plan, the structure of the world, he was whole. He made that hole in himself, made 10 perfect saphires, and started to pour. While the first three were still whole, enough days passed that god reached the point, he looked upon his creation, and saw leviathan big and fish eyed. Staring so cutely. And realized that hummanity was going to kill his perfect creature one day.

then Dath broke, then the rest of htem broke. Just a little, the tiniest crack, as god was not able to process this, as he was not full, not entirely, there was still grief and anger.

As time goes on, god's resentment has no out, it builds and festers. Humans then start rubbing it in. They start fishing, making boats, boasting about slaying great beasts from the sea, writing stories about hunting and killing krakens and serpents and whatever else. Leviathan is evil. Leviathan is demonic. In this game a npc tells you to take sword and go slay that Leviathan. Oil spills in kuwait, oil spills in the gulf of mexico, oil sills everywhere. Clean those ducks with dawn, but we give no dawn for leviathan. We drop a nuke in the ocean for scientific research, we didn't even check to make sure leviathan wasn't there first. people keep trying to sail into the bermuda fucking triangle when leviathan is just trying to nap. We keep praying to him when hes on his break and just wants to enjoy 3 hours with his leviathan.

God is good, but he is not as good as he once was. the resentment boils over, that is evil, that is suffering.

Sadly, I do not believe in the new testimant, which means that I cannot use this as an excuse for evil in the world. hope yall find this theory fun though!



(sources
Talmud on leviathan:

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God spending a whole poem talking about leviathan in various translations of the bible:

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That says where going to eat leviathan:

Please, Log in or Register to view URLs content!

 

[ServantoftheSecretFire]

Theodicy: A belief over why there could be a unjust world full of suffering if god is good.

So, you have heard all the classic theodicy's. Evil is nessecary for free will. whatever the hell Calvanists are up to. Etc etc. I have a second theory, one that states.

"God has ejected suffering into the world because he began to resent us" And why does god resent us?
"God Resents us because we are going to eat gods pet fish.

So, lets begin.

one, god is less than he was before. God, at the beggining was infinite and good and perfect. The problem is, we know god created something because we exist. God then must have made a hole in himself for all of creation. This will be relevant later.

Second thing, god has a favorite and its leviathan.

In the talmud, Rav Yehuda says theres 12 hours a day, 3 of them are spent playing with leviathan. We know that leviathan is a big fish of some sort, possibly a sea serpent. Rav Yehuda specifically says that god plays with leviathan "like a pet" god loves leviathan, Leviathan takes up a quarter of this time. This got me thinking.

In the book of Job, when god asks why evil exists in the world. God spends a weirldly long time on leviathan. I could put the text here, but you could google it yourself. But like, a good paragraph of ranting is describing what it would be like to fish out leviathan from the sea. God talks alot about how Job would never be able to understand what its like to drag leviathan out of the sea. This is part of his answer to why Job suffers despite being good.

god, clearly, deeply loves leviathan. More than beheamoth, or the beast of the sky that nobody talks about{it's named ziz and that ones my favorite <|:}

So, heres the proposed theory. If we can trust the new testimate as a source, we are going to have to eat leviathan at end of time, spalm 74:14. We are going to eat leviathan. Gods favorite creature. When god made his plan, the structure of the world, he was whole. He made that hole in himself, made 10 perfect saphires, and started to pour. While the first three were still whole, enough days passed that god reached the point, he looked upon his creation, and saw leviathan big and fish eyed. Staring so cutely. And realized that hummanity was going to kill his perfect creature one day.

then Dath broke, then the rest of htem broke. Just a little, the tiniest crack, as god was not able to process this, as he was not full, not entirely, there was still grief and anger.

As time goes on, god's resentment has no out, it builds and festers. Humans then start rubbing it in. They start fishing, making boats, boasting about slaying great beasts from the sea, writing stories about hunting and killing krakens and serpents and whatever else. Leviathan is evil. Leviathan is demonic. In this game a npc tells you to take sword and go slay that Leviathan. Oil spills in kuwait, oil spills in the gulf of mexico, oil sills everywhere. Clean those ducks with dawn, but we give no dawn for leviathan. We drop a nuke in the ocean for scientific research, we didn't even check to make sure leviathan wasn't there first. people keep trying to sail into the bermuda fucking triangle when leviathan is just trying to nap. We keep praying to him when hes on his break and just wants to enjoy 3 hours with his leviathan.

God is good, but he is not as good as he once was. the resentment boils over, that is evil, that is suffering.

Sadly, I do not believe in the new testimant, which means that I cannot use this as an excuse for evil in the world. hope yall find this theory fun though!



(sources
Talmud on leviathan:

Please, Log in or Register to view URLs content!

God spending a whole poem talking about leviathan in various translations of the bible:

Please, Log in or Register to view URLs content!

That says where going to eat leviathan:

Please, Log in or Register to view URLs content!

Hashem is eternal, unchanging, and always good my friend. Evil the way most many religions perceive isn't real . Evil is the absence of good just as darkness the absence of light. Sin isn't some sort of metaphyiscal spiritual substance that stains our soul. Sin is actively choosing to distance oneself from God's perfection and initial perfection of their creation.

 

[TimeLostMage]

Hashem is eternal, unchanging, and always good my friend. Evil the way most many religions perceive isn't real . Evil is the absence of good just as darkness the absence of light. Sin isn't some sort of metaphyiscal spiritual substance that stains our soul. Sin is actively choosing to distance oneself from God's perfection and initial perfection of their creation.

You are not engaging with the premise of this theodicy. Frankly, you are correct. But i am posing a hypothetical. Intentionally silly remember!

i mean, if were going by talmud, god in the torah is actually often mettatron, or uriel. So perhaps it is mettatrons, or Uriel, resentment creeping in. thats why i said god and not Hashem, god as a loose concept, god as a title.


though, i reallize that i forgot to use hashem for the pulling back parts so egg on my face really. Sorry about this. Hashem has only recently entered my vocabulary, and i am yet to incorporate it into my writing, i mean typ do it during the edit but forgot.

 

[ServantoftheSecretFire]

It wasn't an admonishment my friend. For me saying hashem is stating my recognition and realization of what the name behind that term means. It's an expression of faith as well as knowledge. Wisdom and understanding.

 

[ewiz]

It's a fun idea, I pictured it like a cartoon. But beyond a bit of fun is there a moral here? Psalm 74, which is an Old Testament source from around the 6th century BC, says that God is the one who kills Leviathan and gives his meat to humans, a sign of his strength the same way him treating this great beast as a pet is a sign of his strength to Job.

I don't think any name other than god is necessary for the story, and also don't think Hashem is "always good." For YHVH to be God, for me that means it would have to represent the totality of all things at the very least, including both good and evil. Good/Evil being relative to each other, and also relative to our experience as humans. Outside of our society and experience as humans, I don't see a reason to think moral good or evil exist. But if we are supposed to consider Hashem as being entirely good, then evil must also be good, and the words lose their meaning.

A relevant biblical quote, and perhaps my favorite, is Isaiah 45:7.
"I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things."

I think that an omnipotent god cannot be omnibenevolent, quite simply because that places a limitation on its power by definition. The "problem of evil" only exists when the idea of god is misinterpreted in this way. And as far as I know, these misinterpretations only come about later in the works of the New Testament. The god of the Old Testament, Hashem etc, was unlimited. Even strong enough to tame and kill Leviathan, something no man in the desert could ever imagine doing.

 

[Kepler]

It's fun to play around with ideas and break conditioning.
Hail Discordia!

A theodicy theory isn't any more inaccurate than any other due to the fact they're all wrong from their theistic premise. Although some could be more internally logical than others.

It's personally interesting to read that Leviathan is said to take up a quarter of time. Astronomically I associate aspects of the living myth of Leviathan with the constellation Cetus along the celestial equator where in daily 24 hour divisions it marks a quarter of a day, and as a crossquarter reference a quarter of a year(between Lammas and Samhain) when the constellation is in solar opposition. As it bridges the season autumn in the northern hemisphere it could be associated with decay and viewed as evil in contrast to permanence in a different silly tale.

Yet, a transcendent theistic model isn't needed to explain behavioral evil which can be defined as zero sum dynamics leading to negative sum outcomes in terms of evolutionary survival.

 

[Digiquo]

I think this argument ignores some major axioms associated with the Christian God, those being as follows: God is perfectly omniscient (knows everything), is omnipotent (all powerful and can do all things), is omnipresent (exists everywhere at every point in time), and finally is perfectly benevolent.
Under these four axioms, the idea that God resents humanity because we killed another creation of his would presume then that he is not omniscient, else he would have known we would kill the Leviathan, and also that he is not perfectly benevolent, because quite literally the most important teaching of the Christian faith is to "forgive those who have wronged you, as God forgives us for our own sins".

If you start questioning the axioms, suddenly you're opening an entirely new can of worms that has been discussed for oh, probably about 2000 years now, about whether God is even really worthy of the title if he isn't so perfect himself.

I personally believe the axioms are true, but I think further discussion on that front should be left to its own discussion.

In short, I think it's a pretty shortsighted and whimsical fantasy to suppose God is angry at humanity for killing his favorite fish when he knew damn well what was going to happen.

Post automatically merged: Today at 3:58 AM

I will drop a hint about why I think the world is what it is and why it seems like God makes all these contradictory decisions that supposedly fly in the face of the aforementioned 4 axioms across both Old and New Testaments though:

I think God wants to be wrong.

 

[ServantoftheSecretFire]

You are not engaging with the premise of this theodicy. Frankly, you are correct. But i am posing a hypothetical. Intentionally silly remember!

i mean, if were going by talmud, god in the torah is actually often mettatron, or uriel. So perhaps it is mettatrons, or Uriel, resentment creeping in. thats why i said god and not Hashem, god as a loose concept, god as a title.


though, i reallize that i forgot to use hashem for the pulling back parts so egg on my face really. Sorry about this. Hashem has only recently entered my vocabulary, and i am yet to incorporate it into my writing, i mean typ do it during the edit but forgot.

Ah you meant elohim I understand. I mean it is fun to play with that sort of idea of thinking of them in more humanlike terms.

Post automatically merged: Today at 4:27 AM

It's a fun idea, I pictured it like a cartoon. But beyond a bit of fun is there a moral here? Psalm 74, which is an Old Testament source from around the 6th century BC, says that God is the one who kills Leviathan and gives his meat to humans, a sign of his strength the same way him treating this great beast as a pet is a sign of his strength to Job.

I don't think any name other than god is necessary for the story, and also don't think Hashem is "always good." For YHVH to be God, for me that means it would have to represent the totality of all things at the very least, including both good and evil. Good/Evil being relative to each other, and also relative to our experience as humans. Outside of our society and experience as humans, I don't see a reason to think moral good or evil exist. But if we are supposed to consider Hashem as being entirely good, then evil must also be good, and the words lose their meaning.

A relevant biblical quote, and perhaps my favorite, is Isaiah 45:7.
"I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things."

I think that an omnipotent god cannot be omnibenevolent, quite simply because that places a limitation on its power by definition. The "problem of evil" only exists when the idea of god is misinterpreted in this way. And as far as I know, these misinterpretations only come about later in the works of the New Testament. The god of the Old Testament, Hashem etc, was unlimited. Even strong enough to tame and kill Leviathan, something no man in the desert could ever imagine doing.

I respectfully disagree with the premise of acknowledging evil through that lens. Evil from a spiritual kabbalistic mystical perspective isn't the equivalent to actual shadows in physical terms. The only exist because the light is being blocked by something. This is one of the ways the idea of god that kabbalists describe as ain sof is a way of recognizing the transcendant nature of hashem which is good and unchanging. Evil is a by product of allowing free will to exist allowing the possibility of conscious creations to deviate and exist outside of Hashem's unity. Psalm 139:12
even the darkness will not be dark to you;
the night will shine like the day,
for darkness is as light to you.

The idea of ain sof in some ways is kind of like the sun ( though do not mistake I'm conflating him as a solar deity) it shines down regardless of an individuals morality. In the same way the light of Hashem is always present even if from our perspective we're surrounded by darkness. Because Hashem exists out of space and time they can see the beginning and end of it in our sphere of existence both the perfect beginning and perfect end.

Post automatically merged: Today at 4:34 AM

I think this argument ignores some major axioms associated with the Christian God, those being as follows: God is perfectly omniscient (knows everything), is omnipotent (all powerful and can do all things), is omnipresent (exists everywhere at every point in time), and finally is perfectly benevolent.
Under these four axioms, the idea that God resents humanity because we killed another creation of his would presume then that he is not omniscient, else he would have known we would kill the Leviathan, and also that he is not perfectly benevolent, because quite literally the most important teaching of the Christian faith is to "forgive those who have wronged you, as God forgives us for our own sins".

If you start questioning the axioms, suddenly you're opening an entirely new can of worms that has been discussed for oh, probably about 2000 years now, about whether God is even really worthy of the title if he isn't so perfect himself.

I personally believe the axioms are true, but I think further discussion on that front should be left to its own discussion.

In short, I think it's a pretty shortsighted and whimsical fantasy to suppose God is angry at humanity for killing his favorite fish when he knew damn well what was going to happen.

Post automatically merged: Today at 3:58 AM

I will drop a hint about why I think the world is what it is and why it seems like God makes all these contradictory decisions that supposedly fly in the face of the aforementioned 4 axioms across both Old and New Testaments though:

I think God wants to be wrong.

God doesn't want to be wrong, God want's intelligent consciousness that exists outside of themselves but that aligns with their spirit but for that to be possible truly without effectively enforcing it meaning there's no free will the potential to deviate from what's right need to be a possibility a possibility that just happened to be the one that occurred.

 

[ewiz]

I respectfully disagree with the premise of acknowledging evil through that lens.

I don't acknowledge good or evil as actual things.

Evil from a spiritual kabbalistic mystical perspective isn't the equivalent to actual shadows in physical terms. The only exist because the light is being blocked by something.

How is that not the same description of an actual shadow?

This is one of the ways the idea of god that kabbalists describe as ain sof is a way of recognizing the transcendant nature of hashem which is good and unchanging.

I think the use of the words good and benevolence to describe this are the root of the problem of evil. I think the idea of good and evil as antagonistic forces is an illusion, and something entirely relative to our human experience. Something good or evil to us would be met with indifference by something which is not us, or at the very least it would be judged in a different way than ours. I understand the idea of divine light being distorted and concealed, and I think the words good and evil confuse this. I also don't agree that the "evils" of suffering we experience in our lives arise this way.

Evil is a by product of allowing free will to exist allowing the possibility of conscious creations to deviate and exist outside of Hashem's unity.

Does free will exist? The evidence of its illusory nature continues to pile up as time goes on.

But ignoring that, if Evil is a byproduct of free will, and Evil is what's evil to us like Suffering, then how does this explain the evils that arise without the influence of conscious creations? Or is it only Evil if it arises from a conscious creation's exercise of free will? A human arsonist burning down a village is evil, but a lightning bolt doing the same is good? From my perspective as a human one is morally wrong and the other is not, but they are both equally bad. From a metaphysical perspective, I see both as equal, and have no reason to think god by whatever name we might use would see a difference either.