[Help] A problem to reuse same words in different rituals?

[pixel_fortune]

So I am planning to do a PGM rite on the upcoming summer solstice, the

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It has an opening invocation and then an invocation for each hour, beginning
"In the first hour you have the form of a cat; your name is ΦΑΡΑΚΟΥΝΗΘ. Give glory and favor to this charm.
In the second hour you have the form of a dog; your name is ΣΟΥΦΙ. Give strength and honor to this charm and to NN."

I am also, unrelatedly, considering switching some of my daily practices to some of the Helios Unbound ones by Nick Farrell.

His solar adorations are adapted from the same PGM text.

The opening is basically identical, and then the 12 faces are very similar, but with altered boons:

"I invoke you in the First Hour where you have the form of a cat [FA-RA-KOO-N'ETH] because you are reborn each day. Teach me to be independent and to watch so that I act att he right time
In the second Hour You have the Form of a Dog Your Name is [SOO-FEE] For you are my loyal protector. Teach me strength and honour." etc etc
(First 6 in the dawn adoration and last 6 in the midday adoration. )

I worry about using the same text for two different purposes, and that using it daily would make the 12 Faces consecration less powerful (because instead of standing out as a special ritual, marked out as separate and different from other times, it would be like, "right, same thing you do every day". Of course ideally you perform the solar adorations with feeling, but it's still a daily practice, and no individual performance would stand out in your memory)

I tend to feel that you need to keep your symbol sets fairly clear: "I decree that drawing a pentagram in the air means THIS" - if I later drew a pentagram in the air to mean something different, it would cause confusion and weakening of the power

Thoughts on this?

Post automatically merged: Dec 15, 2023

(this is just an example - it comes up reasonably often because magicians adapt the same source texts for their varied needs)

 

[DiLoco_DelEted]

Outta my pay grade.

Post automatically merged: Dec 15, 2023

I'm not sure how strict the daemons are with the PGM speeches, but rituals back to back using the same godnames haven't seemed to make a big deal.
I think that as long as you are focused 9n the intent, and perhaps state the intent and goal beforehand of the ritual it should go fine.

 

[Yazata]

So I am planning to do a PGM rite on the upcoming summer solstice, the

Please, Log in or Register to view URLs content!

.

It has an opening invocation and then an invocation for each hour, beginning
"In the first hour you have the form of a cat; your name is ΦΑΡΑΚΟΥΝΗΘ. Give glory and favor to this charm.
In the second hour you have the form of a dog; your name is ΣΟΥΦΙ. Give strength and honor to this charm and to NN."

I am also, unrelatedly, considering switching some of my daily practices to some of the Helios Unbound ones by Nick Farrell.

His solar adorations are adapted from the same PGM text.

The opening is basically identical, and then the 12 faces are very similar, but with altered boons:

"I invoke you in the First Hour where you have the form of a cat [FA-RA-KOO-N'ETH] because you are reborn each day. Teach me to be independent and to watch so that I act att he right time
In the second Hour You have the Form of a Dog Your Name is [SOO-FEE] For you are my loyal protector. Teach me strength and honour." etc etc
(First 6 in the dawn adoration and last 6 in the midday adoration. )

I worry about using the same text for two different purposes, and that using it daily would make the 12 Faces consecration less powerful (because instead of standing out as a special ritual, marked out as separate and different from other times, it would be like, "right, same thing you do every day". Of course ideally you perform the solar adorations with feeling, but it's still a daily practice, and no individual performance would stand out in your memory)

I tend to feel that you need to keep your symbol sets fairly clear: "I decree that drawing a pentagram in the air means THIS" - if I later drew a pentagram in the air to mean something different, it would cause confusion and weakening of the power

Thoughts on this?

Post automatically merged: Dec 15, 2023

(this is just an example - it comes up reasonably often because magicians adapt the same source texts for their varied needs)

This is (as you indeed say) from a consecration ritual. I happen to like this particular one and have used it for a couple of things.
I don't think it would be strange to use the same address for the hours in other rituals, might even be good as you then build a stronger connection, but if I'm not wrong I believe there is at least one other text in there (PGM) that lists the hours in a similar way (but with different names) If I find it later today I'll post it here.

Post automatically merged: Dec 15, 2023

Okay, found it. PGM III 494 (which is called "spell to establish a relationship with Helios")

"In the first hour you have the form and character of a young monkey; the tree you produce is the silver fir, the stone, the aphanos, the bird ... Your name is PHROUER"

etc..

 

[stratamaster78]

@pixel_fortune

I'm not as well learned in the PGM as I'd like to be but I'm a member of a PGM group on FB and one of the members published this mini-paper on this EXACT ritual and how to adapt it for practical use.

I've not seen a digital share of it anywhere but it's on Amazon Kindle for $1.99

I've also seen physical copies around the web for $5

Here's a link to the Digital version...

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It's supposed to be really good and has been listed as Essential Reading under the Greek Magical Papyri section of the Grimoire Encyclopedia by David Rankine.

Edit: I found the physical edition straight from Hadean Press...

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[HoldAll]

In my mind, you can use the barbarous names/voces magicae for one purpose only, and that's what makes all the difference, not the 'regular' words.

I have been researching the PGM for the last couple of days (it's slowly turning into a mild obsessions, there are so many scholarly books and journal articles available) and have become convinced that it is really them which trigger the magic. While Nick Farrell expanded the wording of the rite, he left in the voces magicae unchanged, and that's exactly why I think using the two versions of the invocations concurrently is problematic. The voces magicae are designed to trigger a specific effect (in the operator's subconscious, on the astral plane, whatever), so you would effectively invoke at cross-purposes, so to speak.

I would really take up @Yazata's suggestion and pick another Helios ritual instead. There are lots of Helios rituals in the PGM, the Mithras Liturgy is really about him as well (ok, it's quite long, a full-fledged ascension ritual). Again, I think the voces magicae are what matters most; you can't use a given set of them for two different purposes, IMHO.

 

[Robert Ramsay]

If you are worried about it in any way, then that itself will make the ritual less effective. Firstly, a magician needs confidence. Even if, sometimes, it's "fake it 'til you make it"

 

[stratamaster78]

I meant to also say that I don't see an issue with one using any one ritual for multiple purposes because honestly we do that all the time in Magick.

My experience with PGM rituals is limited but I can speak to PGM V.96—172 which is usually referred to as the Headless Rite, or Bornless Ritual, or Liber Samekh.

This ritual can use basically the exact same script but use a different charge or statement of intent following sections B (Air) C (Fire) D (Water) and E (Earth) with all of the voces magicae or barbarous word being exactly the same.

I know of 4 different Charges (there can probably be more):

Empowering Preliminary Invocation before performing Evocations: “Subject to me all spirits so that every spirit whether heavenly or ethereal, upon the earth or under the earth, on dry land or in the water, of whirling air or rushing fire, and every spell and scourge of God may be obedient to me!”

Banishing: "Deliver me, NN., (Your Name) from any and all demons, death, defilement, illness, impurity, infirmity, pain, plague, or poison that restrains me!”

Exorcism: “Deliver NN. (Name of Person you are performing Exorcism on) from the demon that restrains him!"

K&C of the HGA: “Send to me my neverborn friend and guardian, my supernatural assistant, my agathodaimon, my holy guardian angel! Send to me the spirit NN. (Name of your Personal HGA if you know it or just Holy Guardian Angel if you don't) whose duty it is to guide, lead, assist, and protect me through this and all lives!”

It's the exact same PGM ritual modified and used for 4 completely different purposes.

 

[pixel_fortune]

This is all extremely helpful, thank you! Very much appreciating the value of the forum right now!

Okay, found it. PGM III 494 (which is called "spell to establish a relationship with Helios")

Ah you're a legend!

In my mind, you can use the barbarous names/voces magicae for one purpose only, and that's what makes all the difference, not the 'regular' words.

Thanks, this is a really useful heuristic. I'll have a look at what's used in PGM III 494 and see what can be done

If you are worried about it in any way, then that itself will make the ritual less effective.

True true - but I can be talked out of worry pretty easily if someone gives me a logical and convincing explanation of why I don't need to be worried. (...in this case that hasn't happened, people are like "you're right to worry", but it does sometimes)

The Secrets of Helios: Unlocking the Practical Uses of PGM IV.1596-1715

I own this already! Delighted it's the one you recommend. And agree, it's great. I'm going with their translation but Polyphanes' ritual (or a slight variant on it) - the PGM itself gives no instructions for that rite, just the words, and so the Secrets of Helios book is basically just reading it out all in one go while holding the charm in one hand

Polyphanes' rite is much more involved and has you make a sundial-semicircle with hieroglyphs of each animal and a little offering cup for wine in front of each one, and has you invoke each face at the planetary hour from sunrise to sunset

Neither is right or wrong, so I can see why someone would choose the quicker & simpler version, but the full-day working with visuals and offerings is really appealing to me. Especially as the summer solstice is very close to the end of the year in this hemisphere, so something "big" feels appropriate

(Not that the text gives any indication it should be on the summer solstice, that's completely my choice, but it's not a stretch that it'd be appropriate)

It's the exact same PGM ritual modified and used for 4 completely different purposes.

I think that honestly I wouldn't be super comfortable using the Headless rite as both part of daily practice and as the centrepiece of a standalone working! I would be here asking the same question! Because it would have the same problem of not demarcating the occasion as special and unusual (this is also why I like the "big" version of the Helios consecration - it will stand out very much from my daily routine)

Whereas using the Bornless rite as part of everyday practice and as setup for rituals would be okay. Like I do the LRP daily and also as an opening to rituals for varied purposes, but it's only the set-up, it's not like then doing the LRP as a standalone lovespell or something.

...I'm talking myself into a stronger "against" position, I can see that. So that's useful intel in itself. Go go gadget metacognition.

Post automatically merged: Dec 15, 2023

Option 3: throw it all in and do PGM III. 1-164, a curse against charioteers. They've had it too good for too long.

 

[stratamaster78]

I own this already! Delighted it's the one you recommend. And agree, it's great. I'm going with their translation but Polyphanes' ritual (or a slight variant on it) - the PGM itself gives no instructions for that rite, just the words, and so the Secrets of Helios book is basically just reading it out all in one go while holding the charm in one hand

Polyphanes' rite is much more involved and has you make a sundial-semicircle with hieroglyphs of each animal and a little offering cup for wine in front of each one, and has you invoke each face at the planetary hour from sunrise to sunset

Neither is right or wrong, so I can see why someone would choose the quicker & simpler version, but the full-day working with visuals and offerings is really appealing to me. Especially as the summer solstice is very close to the end of the year in this hemisphere, so something "big" feels appropriate

(Not that the text gives any indication it should be on the summer solstice, that's completely my choice, but it's not a stretch that it'd be appropriate)


I think that honestly I wouldn't be super comfortable using the Headless rite as both part of daily practice and as the centrepiece of a standalone working! I would be here asking the same question! Because it would have the same problem of not demarcating the occasion as special and unusual (this is also why I like the "big" version of the Helios consecration - it will stand out very much from my daily routine)

Whereas using the Bornless rite as part of everyday practice and as setup for rituals would be okay. Like I do the LRP daily and also as an opening to rituals for varied purposes, but it's only the set-up, it's not like then doing the LRP as a standalone lovespell or something.

...I'm talking myself into a stronger "against" position, I can see that. So that's useful intel in itself. Go go gadget metacognition.

Ah cool yes like I say I'm not really familiar with the consecration ritual you are researching but Alison's Helios booklet is held in high regard in PGM circles.

But yes I can also understand that you are more interested in a more fully fleshed out ritual.

Plus yes in regard to the Bornless rite most probably wouldn't use it daily unless they were trying to attain K&C with their HGA or doing Evocations every day for some reason.

But I really just meant to show that the same PGM ritual can be used for multiple purposes and imo would not weaken it in any way.

It's for me always about the intent behind what one is doing. If you put the same amount of focus and intent into them you could use the same framework of a script for different purposes and get good results.

 

[pixel_fortune]

I missed something really bloody obvious with my question here, or at least it's obvious to me 6 months in:

You're not using the 12 Faces consecration for "a different purpose" in Helios Unbound. It's not just a solar adoration. You are consecrating yourself as a living talisman to hold the indwelling force of your Holy Daimon. It's the same purpose as the spell's original intention

(David Shoemaker in Way of the Will describes the process of K&CHGA similarly: that you are purifying and consecrating yourself as a talisman)

When i think of the power of the 12 Faces rite done just once, the realisation that you're effectively repeating it ~200 times throughout Helios Unbound is kind of awe-inspiring

 

[Xenophon]

So I am planning to do a PGM rite on the upcoming summer solstice, the

Please, Log in or Register to view URLs content!

.

It has an opening invocation and then an invocation for each hour, beginning
"In the first hour you have the form of a cat; your name is ΦΑΡΑΚΟΥΝΗΘ. Give glory and favor to this charm.
In the second hour you have the form of a dog; your name is ΣΟΥΦΙ. Give strength and honor to this charm and to NN."

I am also, unrelatedly, considering switching some of my daily practices to some of the Helios Unbound ones by Nick Farrell.

His solar adorations are adapted from the same PGM text.

The opening is basically identical, and then the 12 faces are very similar, but with altered boons:

"I invoke you in the First Hour where you have the form of a cat [FA-RA-KOO-N'ETH] because you are reborn each day. Teach me to be independent and to watch so that I act att he right time
In the second Hour You have the Form of a Dog Your Name is [SOO-FEE] For you are my loyal protector. Teach me strength and honour." etc etc
(First 6 in the dawn adoration and last 6 in the midday adoration. )

I worry about using the same text for two different purposes, and that using it daily would make the 12 Faces consecration less powerful (because instead of standing out as a special ritual, marked out as separate and different from other times, it would be like, "right, same thing you do every day". Of course ideally you perform the solar adorations with feeling, but it's still a daily practice, and no individual performance would stand out in your memory)

I tend to feel that you need to keep your symbol sets fairly clear: "I decree that drawing a pentagram in the air means THIS" - if I later drew a pentagram in the air to mean something different, it would cause confusion and weakening of the power

Thoughts on this?

Post automatically merged: Dec 15, 2023

(this is just an example - it comes up reasonably often because magicians adapt the same source texts for their varied needs)

I have run into the same problem with rites I do. It might or might not matter to the powers you evoke. It winds up mattering to me---energy lags. As a bare minimum I now try to introduce enough differentiation to pique and maintain my own interest.