[Help] A quick question about Astral Plane.

[Wildchildx11]

I read what is positive on the material becomes negative on the Astral, is this what is responsible for incarnation? Does this mean in order to advance past the Astral plane to a higher plane of existence, you need to do things that are typically considered negative such as cause blindness in babies or something?

The Mystical Qabalah by Dion Fortune mentions this. I mean, I'm cool with causing blindness with babies, anything more than that such as being responsible for rape, murder or torture, I'm not sure about.

Am I misunderstanding something which I just read or is this a concept that should be dismissed?

Post automatically merged: May 9, 2024

I'm dumb, I just realized it's referring to Positive and Masculine energy, each of which could have both negative and positive attributes and associations, it's probably not saying "What is spiritually healthy on one plane, isn't spiritually healthy on another" it's just feminine energy flows up and I would imagine the positive aspects of that energy remain flowing up and masculine energy flows down.

 

[HoldAll]

I for one find it impossible to take all that theosophically inspired talk about different 'planes' seriously. I mean, there is the Physical Plane, the Astral Plane, the Causal Plane, the Spirtual Plane, and some writers haven even come up with a Lower Causal Plane and whatnot. I called it 'the inner plane lasagna' in one post... I'd say the astral plane is just a name for the Otherworld, or if most beginners (like me) were honest, "that what I see when I close my eyes".

Dion Fortune goes on a lot about the importance of ensuring equilibrium but that's only a metaphor that unfortunately suggests an exact 50:50 proportion, as on perfectly balanced scales. Do you really need to be 50% good and 50% evil just to have a 'perfectly balanced' personality? I'd prefer a Chesed attitude towards people in everyday life, knowing that I have also a Geburah side in reserve in case things get hairy, so a Chesed-Geburah equilibrium wouldn't necessarily mean an exact equal amount of such (and other) opposing qualities to me.

 

[Peter2]

I read what is positive on the material becomes negative on the Astral

Each plane receives its life force from a higher plane - mostly the next higher but there are also resonances to consider.

Thus the physical-etheric plane receives its life force via the astral/emotional plane and therefore the astral plane is positive to the physical plane.

Equally the astral plane is negative to both the mental and buddhic planes

Here positive means dominant. Thus it is common for a human's emotions to overcome physical practices e.g. smash something when overcome by anger

 

[Xenophon]

I for one find it impossible to take all that theosophically inspired talk about different 'planes' seriously. I mean, there is the Physical Plane, the Astral Plane, the Causal Plane, the Spirtual Plane, and some writers haven even come up with a Lower Causal Plane and whatnot. I called it 'the inner plane lasagna' in one post... I'd say the astral plane is just a name for the Otherworld, or if most beginners (like me) were honest, "that what I see when I close my eyes".

Dion Fortune goes on a lot about the importance of ensuring equilibrium but that's only a metaphor that unfortunately suggests an exact 50:50 proportion, as on perfectly balanced scales. Do you really need to be 50% good and 50% evil just to have a 'perfectly balanced' personality? I'd prefer a Chesed attitude towards people in everyday life, knowing that I have also a Geburah side in reserve in case things get hairy, so a Chesed-Geburah equilibrium wouldn't necessarily mean an exact equal amount of such (and other) opposing qualities to me.

I suppose one could talk about "circumstantial equilibrium": one alters the proportions of Chesed and Geburah to suit any situation as it develops. I'm not sure, though, why anyone would want to talk this way. Except, of course, to round out a circumloquacious chapter that preserves theory in the face of all circumstance. I've had to spike Chesed with Geburah or dilute Geburah with Chesed a few times on short notice. The theory does not serve any purpose when one is ankle deep in extremis. Nor does it round out a barroom tale or serve as an elegant chapter to one's memoirs. About the only use I can see for it is to suck up to Dion Fortune in all saccharine discipleship or fill out pages in yet another magick book that no one needs at this juncture in history.

 

[Lazarus]

I'm cool with causing blindness with babies

The fuck did you just say?

 

[Peter2]

Recalling that Pythagoras told us that numbers are alive, natural numbering of the planes and subplanes may provide leverage to those that the plane elementals respect

 

[Lazarus]

I mean, I'm cool with causing blindness with babies, anything more than that such as being responsible for rape, murder or torture, I'm not sure about.

— raping, murdering, and torturing babies

Really, you’re not sure about that? But causing blindness to a helpless baby is something you are COOL with?

I’m really trying my best to give you the benefit of the doubt here. Like maybe English is your second language, or maybe this is some incredibly fucked up hyperbole. But it really doesn’t read as hyperbole to me.

Clarify.

 

[Diluculo_DelFuego]

That reminds me of an astral plane danger - adverse entities.

I knew a girl named Amanda that became possessed by Moloch.
She was astral traveling and saw two babies in danger by some entity.
The entity announced itself as "the right hand of Satan".
I lost control of the situation and fell to my knees pleading for deliverance of us all.

It was a very nasty situation.

The babies were to be either her and a daughter of my minister friend who were all trained in conjure, or the babies yet to be born by the daughter.

 

[Wildchildx11]

— raping, murdering, and torturing babies

Really, you’re not sure about that? But causing blindness to a helpless baby is something you are COOL with?

I’m really trying my best to give you the benefit of the doubt here. Like maybe English is your second language, or maybe this is some incredibly fucked up hyperbole. But it really doesn’t read as hyperbole to me.

Clarify.

Because sometimes it's for karmic reasons or a lesson someone needs to learn and not evil.

 

[Lazarus]

So you are cool with causing harm to a defenseless baby (blinding in this case) in the name of karma?

just so it’s clear, we‘re not talking about a disease or accident serving as karma. We are talking about:

in order to advance past the Astral plane to a higher plane of existence, you need to do things that are typically considered negative such as cause blindness in babies or something?

. I mean, I'm cool with causing blindness with babies, anything more than that such as being responsible for rape, murder or torture, I'm not sure about.

an Intentional act of causing harm to another (a baby no less) for the purposes of furthering your own plane of existence.

and you are cool with this? And you are attempting to justify it as karma?

edit: that is literally the very definition of fucking evil.

 

[Wildchildx11]

So you are cool with causing harm to a defenseless baby (blinding in this case) in the name of karma?

just so it’s clear, we‘re not talking about a disease or accident serving as karma. We are talking about:


an Intentional act of causing harm to another (a baby no less) for the purposes of furthering your own plane of existence.

and you are cool with this? And you are attempting to justify it as karma?

edit: that is literally the very definition of fucking evil.

No, not really, unless I have to for karmic reasons, it's someone's path, or it promotes balance. Spirits that cause blindness or deafness in infants may not view themselves or be considered evil because people do face adversity and challenges to learn lessons. I wouldn't be doing it for me.

 

[Lazarus]

I wouldn't be doing it for me.

But you’re cool with doing it?

 

[Wildchildx11]

But you’re cool with doing it?

If I had to on the spiritual plane and it was my role, I would prefer if I didn't.

 

[Yazata]

If I had to on the spiritual plane and it was my role, I would prefer if I didn't.

Stop being so edgy and think a second or two before you post yet another 25 threads today.

 

[Lazarus]

Hmmm….. alright…. I think I understand what you’re trying to say.

If you’re saying: hypothetically, once you die from this world and are somehow assigned to be some sort of spiritual entity acting as an agent of karma and have to do something that manifests the causation of a baby being blinded (accident, disease, birth, or otherwise). I can see where you’re coming from. But geeze fuck what you typed did NOT read that way to me.

everyone else, call me out if you all “got it” and I’m the only one who read it the way I did.

I understood your words as: you would physically - in this reality, be cool with harming a baby if it meant the personal gain of elevating your plane of existence. And then justifying it as “karma”.

edit: and btw, that’s not how it works.

 

[Wildchildx11]

Hmmm….. alright…. I think I understand what you’re trying to say.

If you’re saying: hypothetically, once you die from this world and are somehow assigned to be some sort of spiritual entity acting as an agent of karma and have to do something that manifests the causation of a baby being blinded (accident, disease, birth, or otherwise). I can see where you’re coming from. But geeze fuck what you typed did NOT read that way to me.

everyone else, call me out if you all “got it” and I’m the only one who read it the way I did.

I understood your words as: you would physically - in this reality, be cool with harming a baby if it meant the personal gain of elevating your plane of existence. And then justifying it as “karma”.

edit: and btw, that’s not how it works.

That was what I meant. I wouldn't cause harm unless I was given a role.

Stop being so edgy and think a second or two before you post yet another 25 threads today.

I feel like I cleared up a large part of a blockage just by acknowledging that a large part of my issue was a lack of self-confidence and I don't feel the need to post 25 threads anymore after acknowledging it. This thread isn't on me though. I just posted to clarify.

 

[DurumKebab]

That was what I meant. I wouldn't cause harm unless I was given a role.


I feel like I cleared up a large part of a blockage just by acknowledging that a large part of my issue was a lack of self-confidence and I don't feel the need to post 25 threads anymore after acknowledging it. This thread isn't on me though. I just posted to clarify.

Lazarus has given you an excuse to justify yourself and get away with it, we know that's NOT what you meant to say. You irrationally justified blinding someone, didn't refuse to kill, rape, or torture, you just said you weren't sure.

Returning to the topic, in my world, karma is based on rules, there are ways to find them and collapse them in one's mind. Dogma is based on creating them and making others connect the dots, that is, they will rationalize and defend them as it was theirs. Surely what you read didn't speak of killing, and yet you did justify it, there's a process to that. Stealing, cheating, lying, I think in this case I should say it, KILLING, RAPING, TORTURING, it's not right, no matter how you look at it.

Koetting teaches you to go beyond the astral, that's why it's called "astral travel," because you stay in that layer. The course is called Soul Travel and his book that I haven't read, Ipsissimus. If I have permission to upload the course, I will.

 

[Wildchildx11]

Lazarus has given you an excuse to justify yourself and get away with it, we know that's NOT what you meant to say. You irrationally justified blinding someone, didn't refuse to kill, rape, or torture, you just said you weren't sure.

Returning to the topic, in my world, karma is based on rules, there are ways to find them and collapse them in one's mind. Dogma is based on creating them and making others connect the dots, that is, they will rationalize and defend them as it was theirs. Surely what you read didn't speak of killing, and yet you did justify it, there's a process to that. Stealing, cheating, lying, I think in this case I should say it, KILLING, RAPING, TORTURING, it's not right, no matter how you look at it.

Koetting teaches you to go beyond the astral, that's why it's called "astral travel," because you stay in that layer. The course is called Soul Travel and his book that I haven't read, Ipsissimus. If I have permission to upload the course, I will.

I did so I previously read case reports of people who had contacted spirits who would deafen infants who didn't consider themselves to be evil because they served a karmic related role.

I wouldn't want to blind infants and I said it kind of half seriously.

 

[Lazarus]

Lazarus has given you an excuse to justify yourself and get away with it, we know that's NOT what you meant to say. You irrationally justified blinding someone, didn't refuse to kill, rape, or torture, you just said you weren't sure.

So then it wasn’t just me who read it that way. Good to know (and thank you). Now I’m mad at myself for providing an out.

Post automatically merged: Tuesday at 7:02 AM

I did so I previously read case reports of people who had contacted spirits who would deafen infants who didn't consider themselves to be evil because they served a karmic related role.

Yep. This is what I thought you were saying originally. People who would contact spirits to harm children are fucking evil

I wouldn't want to blind infants and I said it kind of half seriously.

The fact that harming children is apparently even on the table of consideration for you, tells me everything I need to know.

 

[Wildchildx11]

So then it wasn’t just me who read it that way. Good to know (and thank you). Now I’m mad at myself for providing an out.

Post automatically merged: Tuesday at 7:02 AM

Thi
Yep. This is what I thought you were saying originally. People who would contact spirits to harm children are fucking evil

The fact that harming children is apparently even on the table of consideration for you, tells me everything I need to know.

In the case I read they were APing and ran into a spirit who caused deafness in children. They didn't summon them or anything.

I misspoke and I admit my mistake. That was why it was on my mind. I agree that people who harm or fuck with children are evil.

I think it was clear I spoke without thinking.