A thought on learning

[RoccoR]

General Occult Discussion
SUBTOPIC: A thought on learning
Ownchef, et al,

Well, I thought about this and I see you are right.

Magic is an art. Not science, not Religion. An art.

(COMMENT)

• IF you ask a person "What color is the sky?" And THEN the response is "BLUE" ...

• IF you ask a person "What color is the sky?" And THEN the response is "700nm" ...

In the case of BLUE, we gave a subjective observation.

In the case of 700nm, the answer is given as a particular wavelength which is found in a particular place in the visible light are of the radio frequency spectrum.

You could strike up a discussion about the color BLUE, but the wavelength points to the exact the same place for all observers The answer is universally true TRUE. --- That is --- even IF the observer is a poor Siberian Husky chasing Russian Blue Cat.

Most Respectfully,
R

 

[Centh]

And guns have a science. Nobody cares though.

what the fuck?

Hey imma stop this convo right here. You sound a little unstable.

 

[Öwnchef]

what the fuck?

Hey imma stop this convo right here. You sound a little unstable.

Not me. I just make it easier for you to understand.

 

[Centh]

Ah, maxwell the great retard has come to pollute this forum too?

You've never gotten a reading from me, I think. I don't know for sure, because I do not know you. Am I allowed to offer those on this forum?

 

[Jarhyn]

Define power in this case. If I wanted to steal from casinos I wouldn't come to this magick forum. I'm here for magick.
You should know I am not practicing intuition on coin flips so I can win games of chance.

I am being abstract in this instance, using a metaphor to compare the power to act in the world*, this power being the "abstract".

It is a difficult game at best (I view all goal oriented behaviors as satisfying "game", semantically, though this too is an abstraction) to figure out what what the math is behind solving the system, and achieving whatever goal.

Lots of strategies towards that game have been proposed. But I think that the best model is probably to ask "who seems to be the best at accomplishing their goals, and what is the process used to get there?"

I would hazard to guess it's the folks who spend their time asking "what best describes how to achieve goals in systems in general?"

The thing is, life and existence itself is a game of chance and one you will inevitably lose. The laws of thermodynamics, as a few people far smarter than me have described them, are "you can't win, you can't break even, and you can't quit the game."

To that end, I have to agree with another person far smarter than me that "losing is fun."

But you lose faster when you don't understand the rules, the rules are really hard to figure out, most people who claimed to know through history were lying, and the people who have apparently figured out enough of the rules to send people to the moon have a model of knowledge that says "lol, we're wrong, let's figure out how and why" and "let's use math to figure out what strategies work within the rules".

Those things lead, however, to the neural model of the mind, and materialism, and the understanding that certain questions like "how did the universe begin?" are just bad questions.

If you want to hone intuition, I would rather recommend honing it to select the deterministic models which generate the chaos of whatever probabilistic-seeming system uses for generating it's outcomes (hence the card counting metaphor)

It's not unlike learning how to flip a coin so that it always lands heads. It's not random, it's deterministic, but fed by chaos generally with the intent on getting a unpredictable result.

I wouldn't recommend building that skill, though, for the same reason I have never learned to count cards or grift effectively.

Even so, knowing that card counting is a thing demanded by the probabilistics and deterministics of blackjack (or coin tossing) is important if I ever want to open a casino, for instance.

Learn all the processes of math and see them in the world around you as they function, and this will help your intuition in applying that knowledge properly for fun and profit.

*distinct from power over others, though the power to act in the world can allow the unscrupulous to claim power over others and result in the masses foisting power over them upon you.

 

[Centh]

I am being abstract in this instance, using a metaphor to compare the power to act in the world*, this power being the "abstract".

It is a difficult game at best (I view all goal oriented behaviors as satisfying "game", semantically, though this too is an abstraction) to figure out what what the math is behind solving the system, and achieving whatever goal.

Lots of strategies towards that game have been proposed. But I think that the best model is probably to ask "who seems to be the best at accomplishing their goals, and what is the process used to get there?"

I would hazard to guess it's the folks who spend their time asking "what best describes how to achieve goals in systems in general?"

The thing is, life and existence itself is a game of chance and one you will inevitably lose. The laws of thermodynamics, as a few people far smarter than me have described them, are "you can't win, you can't break even, and you can't quit the game."

To that end, I have to agree with another person far smarter than me that "losing is fun."

But you lose faster when you don't understand the rules, the rules are really hard to figure out, most people who claimed to know through history were lying, and the people who have apparently figured out enough of the rules to send people to the moon have a model of knowledge that says "lol, we're wrong, let's figure out how and why" and "let's use math to figure out what strategies work within the rules".

Those things lead, however, to the neural model of the mind, and materialism, and the understanding that certain questions like "how did the universe begin?" are just bad questions.

If you want to hone intuition, I would rather recommend honing it to select the deterministic models which generate the chaos of whatever probabilistic-seeming system uses for generating it's outcomes (hence the card counting metaphor)

It's not unlike learning how to flip a coin so that it always lands heads. It's not random, it's deterministic, but fed by chaos generally with the intent on getting a unpredictable result.

I wouldn't recommend building that skill, though, for the same reason I have never learned to count cards or grift effectively.

Even so, knowing that card counting is a thing demanded by the probabilistics and deterministics of blackjack (or coin tossing) is important if I ever want to open a casino, for instance.

Learn all the processes of math and see them in the world around you as they function, and this will help your intuition in applying that knowledge properly for fun and profit.

*distinct from power over others, though the power to act in the world can allow the unscrupulous to claim power over others and result in the masses foisting power over them upon you.

I mean, the reason I wanted to use coin flips was so I could help people. It's a wide jump, but if I can know the ideal way to grow towards helping people then there really isn't more issue.

Rather than a game of infinite unanswered questions I would have a game of infinite testable methods. I could bridge the gap between myself and godhood, maybe. More importantly, I could finally be satisfied with myself. I am always unsatisfied with myself now.

 

[DiLoco_DelEted]

Im sorry, Im lost. What was the original post about?

 

[DiLoco_DelEted]

I mean, the reason I wanted to use coin flips was so I could help people. It's a wide jump, but if I can know the ideal way to grow towards helping people then there really isn't more issue.

Rather than a game of infinite unanswered questions I would have a game of infinite testable methods. I could bridge the gap between myself and godhood, maybe. More importantly, I could finally be satisfied with myself. I am always unsatisfied with myself now.

So what do you really want out of all your exchanges? You seem to relay that you're right and everyone else is wrong.

 

[Centh]

Im sorry, Im lost. What was the original post about?

Mider said "I recall in my teens being told concepts like the Bible wasn't 100 percent true and hell wasn’t forever, I fought these concepts, I suppose that at the time I actively fought to remain in the religious indoctrination I was raised in.

it wasn’t till I was in my 30s that I began to slowly let go of the concept of eternal hell, the need for a savior, etc. the reason I mention this is because I recall a wise Rabbi say that if you study the sacred texts of the Kabbalah you won’t grasp it till you are meant too

supposedly there are spirits that guard the sacred Kabbalah from people learning them. Maybe because There is a danger of people learning the texts and misusing them. (read the story of The Four who entered the Pardes.)

This may be the reason as to why many cultures venerate the need for a teacher, guru, master. to gate keep...sometimes for good reasons sometimes for bad. I have noticed that in our modern times...the secrets that were hidden are slowly becoming revealed by great teachers like Sadhguru, Rabbi Ariel Bar Tzadok, etc"


I apologize for derailing it so hard

 

[DiLoco_DelEted]

I think in terms of the original post, I tend to want to immediately try everything, without reading the entire book.
Ive recently been finding wealth of info that I would have missed by not going back over and reading every single word, cherishing it like Inside The Actors Studio or the like.

 

[DiLoco_DelEted]

Ive been having long discussions with my lady friend about the Bible, and we agree the book is esoteric.
We agree that certain races sprang out of the ground, out of nowhere.
We agree that certain knowledge has been hidden from us by ALL organized religion, and destroyed or kept hidden many worthwhile books.

Perhaps discuss Marduk at this point, or Ahura-Mazda?

 

[DiLoco_DelEted]

Not to mention indigenous people all over the globe. Lets say it, the Bible is NOT complete.

 

[Jarhyn]

I mean, the reason I wanted to use coin flips was so I could help people. It's a wide jump, but if I can know the ideal way to grow towards helping people then there really isn't more issue.

Rather than a game of infinite unanswered questions I would have a game of infinite testable methods. I could bridge the gap between myself and godhood, maybe. More importantly, I could finally be satisfied with myself. I am always unsatisfied with myself now.

That's the thing. You already have a game, and it turns out that all methods are testable using the scientific method and doubt.

If you don't doubt something you never test it. That's the issue with belief based operation.

 

[Centh]

That's the thing. You already have a game, and it turns out that all methods are testable using the scientific method and doubt.

If you don't doubt something you never test it. That's the issue with belief based operation.

Yeah, agreed. Glad we see eye to eye there.

 

[Mider2009]

Not to mention indigenous people all over the globe. Lets say it, the Bible is NOT complete.

Can you confine your rambling to one or two posts?

this isn’t an academic discussion thread...it’s about how at times we read things from books but it’s not till later we understand

like how in the Bible the Prophets we’re having visions but it’s not till later you find out the prophets had to go to school and learn to do this and undergo training etc.

It’s the difference between Chokmah and Binah

 

[RoccoR]

General Occult Discussion
SUBTOPIC: A thought on learning
Jarhyn, Centh, Diluculo_DelFuego, et al,

That's the thing. You already have a game, and it turns out that all methods are testable using the scientific method and doubt.

If you don't doubt something you never test it. That's the issue with belief based operation.

Yeah, agreed. Glad we see eye to eye there.

(COMMENT)

Like our friend Diluculo_DelFuego, I have been lost several times in this discussion. And I'm not sure what line of discussion we would;

Science has neither confirmed nor denied the existence of the Supreme Being (or multiple deities).

Many of today's surviving mainstream spiritual followings have a belief that includes elements within or from the supernatural.

Most Respectfully,
R

 

[Jarhyn]

Define power in this case. If I wanted to steal from casinos I wouldn't come to this magick forum. I'm here for magick.
You should know I am not practicing intuition on coin flips so I can win games of chance.

I am being abstract in this instance, using a metaphor to compare the power to act in the world*, this power being the "abstract".

It is a difficult game at best (I view all goal oriented behaviors as satisfying "game", semantically, though this too is an abstraction) to figure out what what the math is behind solving the system, and achieving whatever goal.

Lots of strategies towards that game have been proposed. But I think that the best model is probably to ask "who seems to be the best at accomplishing their goals?"

I would hazard to guess it's the folks who spend their time asking "what population fo uses on what best describes how to achieve goals in systems in general?"

The thing is, life and existence itself is a game of chance and one you will inevitably lose. The laws of thermodynamics, as a few people far smarter than me have described them, are "you can't win, you can't break even, and you can't quit the game."

To that end, I have to agree with another person far smarter than me that "losing is fun."

But you lose faster when you don't understand the rules, the rules are really hard to figure out, most people who claimed to know through history were lying, and the people who have apparently figured out enough of the rules to send people to the moon have a model of knowledge that says "lol, we're wrong, let's figure out how and why" and "let's use math to figure out what strategies work within the rules".

Those things lead, however, to the neural model of the mind, and materialism, and the understanding that certain questions like "how did the universe begin" are just bad questions.

If you want to hone intuition, I would rather recommend honing it to select the output of deterministic operations, and whittling down what seems probabilistic into deterministic things.

It's not unlike learning how to flip a coin so that it always lands heads. It's not random, it's deterministic, but fed by chaos generally with the intent on getting a unpredictable result.

I wouldn't recommend building that skill, though, for the same reason I have never learned to count cards or practiced grifting.

Even so, knowing that card counting is a thing demanded by the probabilistics and deterministics of blackjack or coin tossing is important if I ever want to open a casino, for instance.


*distinct from power over others, though the power to act in the world can allow the unscrupulous to claim power over others and result in the masses foisting power over them upon you.

Magic is an art. Not science, not Religion. An art.

Says you.

The fact is, science fills the toolkit. Without the brush, without the technique to make the pigment, it's hard to make a painting.

When you have a nice menu of tools, the idle mind is more than enough to figure out what may be done with them.

 

[Centh]

I am being abstract in this instance, using a metaphor to compare the power to act in the world*, this power being the "abstract".

It is a difficult game at best (I view all goal oriented behaviors as satisfying "game", semantically, though this too is an abstraction) to figure out what what the math is behind solving the system, and achieving whatever goal.

Lots of strategies towards that game have been proposed. But I think that the best model is probably to ask "who seems to be the best at accomplishing their goals?"

I would hazard to guess it's the folks who spend their time asking "what population fo uses on what best describes how to achieve goals in systems in general?"

The thing is, life and existence itself is a game of chance and one you will inevitably lose. The laws of thermodynamics, as a few people far smarter than me have described them, are "you can't win, you can't break even, and you can't quit the game."

To that end, I have to agree with another person far smarter than me that "losing is fun."

But you lose faster when you don't understand the rules, the rules are really hard to figure out, most people who claimed to know through history were lying, and the people who have apparently figured out enough of the rules to send people to the moon have a model of knowledge that says "lol, we're wrong, let's figure out how and why" and "let's use math to figure out what strategies work within the rules".

Those things lead, however, to the neural model of the mind, and materialism, and the understanding that certain questions like "how did the universe begin" are just bad questions.

If you want to hone intuition, I would rather recommend honing it to select the output of deterministic operations, and whittling down what seems probabilistic into deterministic things.

It's not unlike learning how to flip a coin so that it always lands heads. It's not random, it's deterministic, but fed by chaos generally with the intent on getting a unpredictable result.

I wouldn't recommend building that skill, though, for the same reason I have never learned to count cards or practiced grifting.

Even so, knowing that card counting is a thing demanded by the probabilistics and deterministics of blackjack or coin tossing is important if I ever want to open a casino, for instance.


*distinct from power over others, though the power to act in the world can allow the unscrupulous to claim power over others and result in the masses foisting power over them upon you.

Says you.

The fact is, science fills the toolkit. Without the brush, without the technique to make the pigment, it's hard to make a painting.

When you have a nice menu of tools, the idle mind is more than enough to figure out what may be done with them.

I'm getting deja vu. Was this an accident?

https://imgur.com/a/YfUczrS

Please, Log in or Register to view URLs content!

 

[Jarhyn]

I'm getting deja vu. Was this an accident?

https://imgur.com/a/YfUczrS

Please, Log in or Register to view URLs content!

Yep.

 

[Mider2009]

Think what you want, but bad data is bad data is bad data... That's how peer review works. I'm not your average internet rube willing to believe anything. In fact, I don't believe... Well... Anything.

I work in the realm of doubt and information and tested models. If you don't like that, it's your problem

Everyone works or should works in the realm of doubt, I’m saying I don’t care to have an academic discussion