Abyssal God - as above, so below(?)

[Challis]

Happy new year everyone. I hope you are well, whenever this post finds you.

Topic: If there is a supreme deity of light and upmost divinity, then surely we ask the question; is their a god, or force, of the abyss?

Why do I ask?
First of all, I know we do not share the same belief that there is a God in the highest planes of reality/aether/dimension/astral plane (depending on your beliefs) and that is fine. For some it is a force, or energy, or a being.
This questiom rose from beliefs that share this value.

As above, so below.

This is something we read all the time, no matter our faith. It consistently resonates with value in many schools, from energy work, astral work, spiritual work, and magic surrounding life and death.
With every act of good, we can see evil, and vice versa. To every bit of heaven, there is earth, same for ying and yang, etc.

So if there is a God of light, or a force of some similar description, why wouldn't there be the same but for evil, death, and darkness?

Further info;

How'd I get here?

On the 30th, I woke up from another Epic Dream. I had slept for 12 hours, and my body felt extremely odd. In my dreams, I had glimpsed a terrifying sight.
In spatial void in the centre of time, there was a monster of indescribable chaotic terror and beauty.
From swirling purple, blue and black vortex came tendrils that were short and thick and shaped like a tongue in a spiralling formation similar to the petals of a flower.

I was discussing this with a friend who works in the occult, and conclusion led to me asking this question.

 

[Anziel_Merkaba]

Bold of you to assume that any conceptual god of light isn't also a god of darkness. Light and darkness are two sides of the same coin, one is part of the other.

 

[Emperor Time]

Bold of you to assume that any conceptual god of light isn't also a god of darkness. Light and darkness are two sides of the same coin, one is part of the other.

I assume you mean like the concept of Yin and yang?

​

 

[Anziel_Merkaba]

I assume you mean like the concept of Yin and yang?

​

Yin/yang, light/dark, life/death, positive/negative, growth/decay, ect.

All of these 'dual' forces are all different sides of the same forces. You can't have one without the other.

 

[HoldAll]

Some would say that darkness is just the absence of light, hence there is no need to personify it. You need a lightbulb to light up a room but it will go dark by itself, without the need for a separate contraption to create darkness. So god would be beyond good and evil, infinite, ineffable, beyond above and beyond below, beyond yin and yang. Which is boring so people gave him an adversary, made him the villain and called him The Prince of Darkness, and voilà, you have polarity, good vs. evil, etc. Much more exciting (and all too human) that way. Blergh.

Post automatically merged: Jan 1, 2024

What I meant to say is this: An intelligent theist would say, "God is", and not "God is good" or some other nice adjective. He/she/it just is, period. I simply hate the idea of an eternal slugging match between Absolute Good and Absolute Evil with us as piggies in the middle.

 

[Roma]

Some would say that darkness is just the absence of light

Once I was walking on a forest track in near darkness - just some street lights reflected off the low clouds

I came to a place where I saw a dark cloud sitting just above the path. It was a bit bigger than a human. There had been complaints from friends about being scared on that part of the path.

I measured the field and decided I was stronger - so I stepped inside the dark energy. Immediately I could no longer see the leaves on the path. The dark field was thick and blocked the light.

So I sucked in the dark energy and passed it out the top of my head. Then I could see the path again.

There were no more complaints

 

[Konsciencia]

Well, if Lucifer exist. Then He/She is the God of the Abyss. Right now, all I can say, is that The Universe is Both Dark & Light.

 

[Ziran]

So if there is a God of light, or a force of some similar description, why wouldn't there be the same but for evil, death, and darkness?

It depends on how God is defined. There can only be one God which is absolutely literally infinite. If this is how God is defined, then, there are a whole host of logical implications which follow from it. One of those implications prohibits any other gods, not just of evil, death, or darkness, but for rain, seasons, constellations, luck, healing, etc...

This doesn't mean that if there is an absolutely infinite God, that it is evil, or even a mix of good and evil. That doesn't work either. If there is an absolutely literally infinite God, and it chooses to create a material world, it must be omni-benevolent, else, the material world would never be sustained.

If there is no God which is absolutely literally infinite, then, bitheism, polytheism, deism are all perfectly logical god concepts.

On the 30th, I woke up from another Epic Dream. I had slept for 12 hours, and my body felt extremely odd. In my dreams, I had glimpsed a terrifying sight.
In spatial void in the centre of time, there was a monster of indescribable chaotic terror and beauty.
From swirling purple, blue and black vortex came tendrils that were short and thick and shaped like a tongue in a spiralling formation similar to the petals of a flower.

Sometimes dreams are a vision of not "what-is", but, instead an inversion, of "what-it-is-not". Evil, Death, Darkness, Chaos, Void, are all in the realm of non-being, negations. They are "what-it-is-not". Your vision could be a representation of what-god-is-not.

 

[Roma]

if Lucifer exist. Then He/She is the God of the Abyss.

Unfortunately the name Lucifer is from the Latin. It means Light-bearer

Every religious tradition I have seen, has been contaminated.

 

[Ziran]

Yin/yang, light/dark, life/death, positive/negative, growth/decay, ect.

All of these 'dual' forces are all different sides of the same forces. You can't have one without the other.

Light can exist without darkness.
Life can exist without death.
Positive can exist without negative.
Growth can exist without decay.

All of these are assertions. They are concepts of "being". They do not require partners.

Darkness cannot exist without light.
Death cannot exist without life.
Negative cannot exist without positive.
Decay? hmmm.... Decay cannot exist without substance, but, I don't think it is dependent on growth.

All of these are negations. They are concepts of "non-being". They all require partners.

 

[Challis]

Light and darkness are two sides of the same coin, one is part of the other.

I guess this would be another way to see it.

Bold of you to assume that any conceptual god of light isn't also a god of darkness.

This idea came from a blend of enochian, hermetics and and I-ching: that we exist in the physical plain, in the centre of concentric circles. The further you go out, the higher the planes. In the highest realm (e.g spirit), only the highest God can exist within. They also heavily suggest that realms are "light" as opposed to "dark" realms.
The idea I got from what I saw was that it was the most powerful force, except from God.

Of course this is a blend and not directly quoting any book/belief.
I am not stringent and always open to discuss new ideas.

 

[pixel_fortune]

As above, so below.

"As above, so below" means "what exists in the universe/god, also exists in the human" - the macrocosm and microcosm.

It means "if the universe is divine, then the human is divine"

It means the human is the SAME as the universe, not that there is a counterbalancing force in different part of the universe (that would be, idk "as above, so a different part of above" - a divine evil would also be part of the macrocosm, so that's all "above" even when it's metaphorically below)

I'm not saying that's proof there's no evil god - it's not - just that "as above, so below" is not relevant to that idea

(Although you might say "because there is evil in humanity, there must be evil in the universe/god" - as below, so above. And in fact that is what a lot of people believe, as other people have discussed above, good and evil are both part of god in their view. The question of whether evil is an active force or an absence of good isn't solved by the fact that humans have evil in them though, so it doesn't get you any further to showing there is or isn't a supreme evil god)

Edit: I'm only speaking to the hermetic principle of As Above, So Below, I'm not familiar with the I Ching

 

[Diluculo_DelFuego]

My question is, who really cares?
Obviously we all do. We make choices and decisions, day in, day out.
The question boils down to what you really want. If you want God, pursue the kingdom, if you want the devil, let the kingdom burn.
It matters if you want to be a Lord of darkness, a Lord of light, or shades of gray.
You and you alone make your own choices and decisions.

As within, so without.

Post automatically merged: Jan 1, 2024

Another question is where does the term abyss mean to you, where does the word come from, and what is the true meaning of the word?
Perhaps heaven is the superconscious, and hell/abyss the unconscious.

 

[Roma]

"if the universe is divine, then the human is divine"

The priests used to tell us of "the Causeless Cause".

That was to deal with the problem of how does the universe exist.

I do not recall their addressing: why does the universe exist.

After an interesting dream and a sequence of experiments, I distinguish Beingness from Existence.

Thus the Causeless Cause is the same as Beingness, and periodically Beingness causes Existence, until Beingness has had enough experience and terminates Existence.

Such a termination is called: a Mahapralaya

As the result of my dream and experiments, it is clear to me that my essence is part of Beingness, and thus predates and postdates Existence.

 

[Diluculo_DelFuego]

Perhaps a better analogy would be of the abyss as a forensic psychiatric hospital, and heaven a five star world renowned hospital.
Sure, both heal, but who are the patients at each?

Post automatically merged: Jan 1, 2024

And, more importantly, the staff at each?

Post automatically merged: Jan 2, 2024

By the way, with my first post rereading it has a cringe effect.
My point was that what you saw in your dream, is that what you really want running the universe?

 

[Challis]

Thank you again everyone for the replies!

Heya @pixel_fortune that is indeed a good point! I think (and this can be taken however you like) that I've seen the phrase extrapolated in so many texts it means more to me than only micro/macrocosm. Your point is a good reminder not to wander too far in the realm of vague definitions.

And that during the debate with my friend, as we were unravelling our theories about the dream, I was suddenly caught up by this feeling (I.e, if light god why not dark god?)

Hey Dilu! Don't worry about "cringe" I do not understand that word anyway . Loved the bit about the asylum and 5star hotel, and the bit about staff, made me chuckle!

Another question is where does the term abyss mean to you, where does the word come from

I was quite agitated trying to describe it in the waking. It was The abyss, like a void of nothing, that was somehow existing. If god IS light, and the light that fills every living thing, then this was somehow nothingness deified. I guess the word Abyss means somewhere deep and dark gulf or chasm. But thruthfully, The only word that continously enters my mind when i think of it is The End.
It was the End.
Its tough because cannot remove subconscious bias from my thoughts.

I think conceptually what I've written might not make direct sense.

that what you really want running the universe?

Good Lord no :')
As beautiful and beguiling as it was, it was also; fear, chaos and destruction. I really liked how @Ziran put it.

They are "what-it-is-not".

This really resonated with me. Whatever it is, it is Absolutely Without God's Light.

 

[Ziran]

I do not recall their [ the priests ] addressing: why does the universe exist.

It's addressed in my lineage/tradition.