Achieving nirvana/enlightenment while keeping my personality?

[whome]

mask off, fuck it mask off

Gently does it. Let's not frighten the natives too much

 

[Voidking]

Wait, so do I stop being attached to my personality or do I lose my personality completely then? I like to think that we are all already a united part of an "ocean" of energy, and each one of us is a unique droplet in it. Doesnt a human being already at birth regardless of what they might think of themselves in the future and regardless of what others will think of them and regardless of how society will shape them already has certain qualities and attributes that are and will be unique only to them. Cats, dogs, lions etc have different personalities too or maybe personality is not the correct term Im using? Sure life is filled with suffering, but what about love? My love for my friends, family, art, all the joy and laughter I experienced regardless of all the childhood trauma and suffering I went trough, isnt there beauty in all that and wouldnt that be some sort of "balance" and "harmony" in the universe if there is any? Why avoid it altogether simply to stop suffering? Why would I want to become one with the entire universe when universe also includes pedophiles, mass murderers etc... Im curious about your opinions, Im not a native english speaker so I dont want to sound like Im arguing or disagreeing, I just want to learn.

This will depend on the nature of the path, gradual paths such as Tantric Hatha Yoga, the eight-limbed Raja Yoga of Patanjali, the Eight Jhana of the buddha Shakyamuni, Vajrayana Buddhismt, Mahayana Buddhism, Hermetic Alchemy, some upayas from Kashmir Saivism, Tantra, you name it... all of these are a kind of alchemical transmutation in which you purify your consciousness and realise Nirvana-Moksha-Kaivalya... You will transform yourself in a more purified state, you'll remove your aversions and desires and your personality will be refined, more virtuous, more peaceful etc.

In the direct paths of jnana & self inquiry, zen buddhism, Mahamudra and Dzogchen will try to pierce through the illusion and realise the true nature of the mind. This path is more sudden-like type of realisation like Satori, in which you reach moksha without really being purified (so few are the peope who are ripe for this path), in other words, you can have a jnani or an indian saddhus who is a jerk but enlightened, because enlightenment is not about being a saint, but realising the self is an illusion, their personalities is the play of the three gunas (tamas-rajas-sattva).

In both paths you'll disidentify from your personality, you'll see through the illusion, you'll see how your personality is just a bundle of thoughts that you identify with, you can still keep-use your mind-personality, you still have your memories, your expriences, your knowledge, but now you are not attached to them, you are not alanford but you still can play the character alanford.

The life of an enlighetened being is full of joy and suffering too, he just do not identify with them, for him, suffering there is, no sufferer, sounds there are, no hearer... there is awareness of the experience fully in the her and now, the enlightened being experiences the world fully as it is, in the most erotic level you can imagine. We are living in a psychological world, we never exeprience but our thoughts and feelings/sensations, the enlightened being lives on a soul-eros level, have better sex, enjoys better food, can simply enjoy looking at the magnificence of a tree or a moutain or a river and experiencing it on its own ground, in emptiness. The enlightened being does not avoid suffering and joy, but he fully welcomes it in total surrender, while we resist and fight (psychologically). Enlightenment is the dropping of resistsnce, is the end of suffering, is the end of desire, the end of seeking and the seeker, its to finally accept things as they are without striving to change and exert your control, remember we are talking in the psychological world.

You can still pursue the tantric paths/hermetic-alchemical/magical paths, you can pursue Aghora, Saturnine alchemy, Qlippoth, Tantric Hatha Yoga, they will lead you there if you know how to practice, It is all about removing desires and aversions, chose the path-system that seems most natural to you.

 

[alanford]

This will depend on the nature of the path, gradual paths such as Tantric Hatha Yoga, the eight-limbed Raja Yoga of Patanjali, the Eight Jhana of the buddha Shakyamuni, Vajrayana Buddhismt, Mahayana Buddhism, Hermetic Alchemy, some upayas from Kashmir Saivism, Tantra, you name it... all of these are a kind of alchemical transmutation in which you purify your consciousness and realise Nirvana-Moksha-Kaivalya... You will transform yourself in a more purified state, you'll remove your aversions and desires and your personality will be refined, more virtuous, more peaceful etc.

In the direct paths of jnana & self inquiry, zen buddhism, Mahamudra and Dzogchen will try to pierce through the illusion and realise the true nature of the mind. This path is more sudden-like type of realisation like Satori, in which you reach moksha without really being purified (so few are the peope who are ripe for this path), in other words, you can have a jnani or an indian saddhus who is a jerk but enlightened, because enlightenment is not about being a saint, but realising the self is an illusion, their personalities is the play of the three gunas (tamas-rajas-sattva).

In both paths you'll disidentify from your personality, you'll see through the illusion, you'll see how your personality is just a bundle of thoughts that you identify with, you can still keep-use your mind-personality, you still have your memories, your expriences, your knowledge, but now you are not attached to them, you are not alanford but you still can play the character alanford.

The life of an enlighetened being is full of joy and suffering too, he just do not identify with them, for him, suffering there is, no sufferer, sounds there are, no hearer... there is awareness of the experience fully in the her and now, the enlightened being experiences the world fully as it is, in the most erotic level you can imagine. We are living in a psychological world, we never exeprience but our thoughts and feelings/sensations, the enlightened being lives on a soul-eros level, have better sex, enjoys better food, can simply enjoy looking at the magnificence of a tree or a moutain or a river and experiencing it on its own ground, in emptiness. The enlightened being does not avoid suffering and joy, but he fully welcomes it in total surrender, while we resist and fight (psychologically). Enlightenment is the dropping of resistsnce, is the end of suffering, is the end of desire, the end of seeking and the seeker, its to finally accept things as they are without striving to change and exert your control, remember we are talking in the psychological world.

You can still pursue the tantric paths/hermetic-alchemical/magical paths, you can pursue Aghora, Saturnine alchemy, Qlippoth, Tantric Hatha Yoga, they will lead you there if you know how to practice, It is all about removing desires and aversions, chose the path-system that seems most natural to you.

That made a lot of sense, I like that philosophy. I already have very few desires, mostly spiritual growth and I embrace both pleasure and suffering as it comes, rarely resisting the natural flow of things. But I still need to have certain desires to simply remain alive, I want the desire to get up for work on Monday, otherwise I will starve. I also want to go out with friends today, because I love them and sometimes I like to read alan ford comics because Its entertaining and nostalgic-but then again I do not have to be attached to those thoughts and desires like you said, it will take me time to figure this out.

 

[Voidking]

Yes we do all have natural desires to keep the body healthy, to take care of oneself, these are needs and not desires in my opinion... by abandoning all desires, we're talking about desires of the psychological realm, even the desire for enlightenment must be abandoned at the end, it is just a thought (your ego) desiring another thought-concept (enlightenment), in other words, you desire things to be otherwise, and you are not okay with things as they are, in the present... until you learn to accept all, the illusion will keep going, you'll resist suffering and create an illusionary sufferer-ego striving to eliminate suffering, while in reality, there is only suffering, and no sufferer,

 

[sherab]

To quote Tilopa:

Appearance does not bind you, it's your grasping that binds you.

 

[alanford]

Ok, I think I understand it better now. There is no such thing as a separate self, but rather Its a conventional term formed from many things like consciousness, sensations, memories and so on and its constantly changing throughout life because nothing is permanent. If I were to fall on my head tomorrow and suddenly got new likes and dislikes or lost some memories I would still remain "Danči" by name. I might have a mullet haircut and listen to rock music now but I could be into jazz music and knitting in 30 years. What I still dont get is how is this exactly a lifechanging discovery, what does it matter that my "self" is constantly changing when Im always living in the present moment, that doesnt make me want to go bald or wear a robe. I can see how realizing all that and not clinging to desires can bring more peace in life but other then that I dont think Im seeing the bigger picture here. Even if I stop identifying with my personality this is the only character I know how to play, I almost never wear or wore a mask for others, it always deeply saddened me how some people act differently in a social setting just to fit in.

Post automatically merged: Nov 26, 2024

Nevermind, this is something I should figure out by myself. its in no way related to the original question in this thread

 

[HoldAll]

What I still dont get is how is this exactly a lifechanging discovery,

What is so life-changing about the

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discovery is that there is no personal, immutable soul other religions and philosophies worry about which in turn eliminates a lot of spiritual selfishness and narcissism: no soul to save, stain, purify, lose, sell, protect, damage, exalt, etc., just a 'conventional' everyday, interchangeable self like a random husk around an impersonal bright spark that's immune to outside interference. You are not your habits, quirk, likes and dislikes, in fact, there is no you at all (link updated):

Book – PDF - Andre Halaw - There Is No You: Seeing Through the Illusion of the Self

Catchy title, isn't it? ;) Nearly every religion, philosophy, and worldview has one belief in common — they all subscribe to the “I” myth, the idea that there is some “I” at the core of each person. This universal fallacy is the root of all human misery and suffering. It is the aim of this...

wizardforums.com

 

[alanford]

What is so life-changing about the

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discovery is that there is no personal, immutable soul other religions and philosophies worry about which in turn eliminates a lot of spiritual selfishness and narcissism: no soul to save, stain, purify, lose, sell, protect, damage, exalt, etc., just a 'conventional' everyday, interchangeable self like a random husk around an impersonal bright spark that's immune to outside interference. You are not your habits, quirk, likes and dislikes, in fact, there is no you at all (link updated):

Book – PDF - Andre Halaw - There Is No You: Seeing Through the Illusion of the Self

Catchy title, isn't it? ;) Nearly every religion, philosophy, and worldview has one belief in common — they all subscribe to the “I” myth, the idea that there is some “I” at the core of each person. This universal fallacy is the root of all human misery and suffering. It is the aim of this...

wizardforums.com

Ohhh ok, no I still believe in the soul. I will read that book tough, thanks for the recommendation.

 

[IllusiveOwl]

What I still dont get is how is this exactly a lifechanging discovery

The journey home into the self isn't a quick or simple process for a lot of people, it takes a lot of dedicated thought and hard fought comprehension to be able to make meaningful realizations, so much that it's a practice just to sit and think about it (Monks are instructed to "Meditate on ____ for a hour") because it exercises your ability to think. Thats why ashrams, sanghas, and monasteries exist, because it can take so long and so much effort in our worldly neighborhoods.

Please don't give up because you don't get it yet, use your dissatisfaction and lack of meaningful epiphanies as fuel for your curiosity and seeking (endless disappointment doubles as an endless source of energy too). There's something to get, and realizing it gives you access to the dynamic forces of life itself.

I can try to help you grasp the magnitude of this wordless realization with some analogies, because you need to look at the moon, not at me describing the moon to you, but you also need to understand the current of my words to figure out how to look at the moon.

Nonduality has been parroted by a lot of people who don't live it because it's novel here in the West, and being novel makes you cool, unique, rich, etc. Krishna is a good authentic nondual analogy for this realization: all are Krishna, everyone is blue deep down. Tao/Dao & Om/AUM are bot good metaphors to meditate on too. Without the fog of your ego, you're just awareness in a crystal ball piloting a body within the greater body of yourself, there are no characters or personalities, everyone's raw experience of consciousness is the same because all of us are just fish sharing the ocean of one consciousness. You see the misunderstanding of the small self and realize the truth of the big Self, which brings the gift of heavenly immortality.

It's unoriginal to reference the matrix, I know, but the Matrix does make a point to stress this realization and its cool enough to comprehend without getting bored . Everything is code, you yourself are code, you couldnt reasonably be anything else but what everything is made out of, the only thing experiencing anything is a staring crystal ball of awareness, through sickness & health, yet its always a transcendental object. Just code and blackness making a big play, the divine dance of Lila, so don't stress and don't take it personally, the soul itself is just a bundle of divine code, stardust.

 

[alanford]

Hold on, but if there is no soul in buddhism then what about buddhist hells where people who accumulated way too much bad karma go to for a certain amount of time so they can be cleansed of the karmic debt before they can be returned to the cycle of samsara? Clearly this requires at least some form of spirit? And there is also the pure land buddhism and from what I understand in this branch of buddhism people who achieve buddahood/nirvana go to some place outside of samsara but how can you do that without a body if there is no soul?

 

[Magpie]

Hold on, but if there is no soul in buddhism then what about buddhist hells where people who accumulated way too much bad karma go to for a certain amount of time so they can be cleansed of the karmic debt before they can be returned to the cycle of samsara? Clearly this requires at least some form of spirit? And there is also the pure land buddhism and from what I understand in this branch of buddhism people who achieve buddahood/nirvana go to some place outside of samsara but how can you do that without a body if there is no soul?

I believe different 'truths' apply depending on the stage someone is on their spiritual path, so some things seem contradictory e.g. Mahayana Buddhism saying that samsara and nirvana are the same (makes no sense for anyone other than those pretty much at the end of the process). For anyone except those who reached nirvana, I believe samsara is almost all there is, the conditioned existence. That 'hell' you describe is part of it. And those who are in samsara are themselves, they are the conditioned beings, which, upon death, return to the cycle. So until one breaks the bond with samsara, anatta remains an abstraction. I believe that those who reach nirvana then have the power of all manifestations, being beyond the cycle and integrated within the unconditioned.

Also, don't make a mistake of equating that life-essence in circulation as soul, because I don't think personal characteristics survive physical death. It is some sort of impersonal spiritual essence.

Edit: I read a few more posts. Re desire, you don't need "desire" (in the sense of thirst/greed, which must be overcome on the path) to do anything. You can fulfil your duty and even indulge in physical pleasures as long as you do not thirst for them and remain detached. As long as there is no jittering yearning for it. I recommend Bhagavad Gita. It is all about living the mortal life without being a slave to it.

 

[HoldAll]

Hold on, but if there is no soul in buddhism then what about buddhist hells where people who accumulated way too much bad karma go to for a certain amount of time so they can be cleansed of the karmic debt before they can be returned to the cycle of samsara? Clearly this requires at least some form of spirit? And there is also the pure land buddhism and from what I understand in this branch of buddhism people who achieve buddahood/nirvana go to some place outside of samsara but how can you do that without a body if there is no soul?

That's just the 'husk' I spoke of, the innermost core, the Buddha-nature itself is impersonal and unchanging, it doesn't really belong to you and is not you either. So if you get reborn as a hell being, that unchanging Buddha-nature is simply hidden under another husk (as determined by the karma of previous lives). I realize now I'll have to read up on the precise mechanics of it all, that's why this explanation is so crude. My knowledge of Buddhism is only rudimentary, other members have a much better understanding than me.

 

[Shade]

I like to take teachings from multiple religions and belief systems, mostly esoteric buddhism, taoism, luciferianism and paganism. I love the idea of karma, rebirth until reaching nirvana, peace etc...But at the same time I love my freedom, my uniqueness and believe in balancing the ego rather then dissolving it. What are your opinons on this, and do you think certain gods would mind me finding my personal gnosis or working with gods from another pantheon? I considered to work by myself(and my higher self of course) but I would really like to have a daily buddhist mantra to Bodhisattva/s like Ārya Tārā and I like working with certain demons like lord Lucifer or lord Asmodeus. Is my practice more common then I think or am I a bit crazy lol?

It’s an odd thing, when you‘re enlightened you stay silent (clearly I am not at this momen) people think of it as this or that, enlightened is just being deprogrammed of all fears, of all worries not thinking kf the past (I use lateral eye movements to help cure ptsd, or atleast it helps with coming to terms with moving forward and get nightmares to stop I only mention this for those that it might help) or just for those over thinkers, life is imo not free choice, we have moments of choice, enlightenment is when you take all the power dig within and S alchemistnwouldnsay, you find that gold, you find that pure essence through the lead. Enlightenment is truly a choice and it sucks, do You want to bow to fhe god within us all or do you want to love evil as much as you love good. oncenyou square away and realize there is no difference and things are the way ther are meant to be and good and bad are an illusion and you activey choose to be the very essence of accepting do you actually achieve enlightenmen, you don’t lose who you are… on short you realize who you are, you are the devil you are the good you are the hate you are the love everything someone else does is done by design of your own acceptance and it’s all terrifyingly beautiful, tbh ots easier to live in ignorance.

 

[alanford]

It’s an odd thing, when you‘re enlightened you stay silent (clearly I am not at this momen) people think of it as this or that, enlightened is just being deprogrammed of all fears, of all worries not thinking kf the past (I use lateral eye movements to help cure ptsd, or atleast it helps with coming to terms with moving forward and get nightmares to stop I only mention this for those that it might help) or just for those over thinkers, life is imo not free choice, we have moments of choice, enlightenment is when you take all the power dig within and S alchemistnwouldnsay, you find that gold, you find that pure essence through the lead. Enlightenment is truly a choice and it sucks, do You want to bow to fhe god within us all or do you want to love evil as much as you love good. oncenyou square away and realize there is no difference and things are the way ther are meant to be and good and bad are an illusion and you activey choose to be the very essence of accepting do you actually achieve enlightenmen, you don’t lose who you are… on short you realize who you are, you are the devil you are the good you are the hate you are the love everything someone else does is done by design of your own acceptance and it’s all terrifyingly beautiful, tbh ots easier to live in ignorance.

I do not want and never will bow to any god "within us". That doesnt mean I have to love evil as much as I love good, I have a strong moral compass and I always strive to be a better person with virtue, however I am an independent practitioner who follows his own personal gnosis and seeks spiritual freedom, I will never bow to any god, especially from abrahamic faits or kabbalah or anything similar. Maybe I misunderstood you tough

 

[Magpie]

I do not want and never will bow to any god "within us". That doesnt mean I have to love evil as much as I love good, I have a strong moral compass and I always strive to be a better person with virtue, however I am an independent practitioner who follows his own personal gnosis and seeks spiritual freedom, I will never bow to any god, especially from abrahamic faits or kabbalah or anything similar. Maybe I misunderstood you tough

"In the same way, monks, I have taught the Dhamma compared to a raft, for the purpose of crossing over, not for the purpose of holding onto."

Morality for Buddhists is a a raft that you discard after it served your purpose. After crossing that water there is no good and evil.

Good for you for ditching monotheism!

 

[Konsciencia]

You are not crazy. A lot of people tend to dissolve the ego, I don't. Instead, I embrace it as my shadow self. But, I know that there's no individuality between me and The Source.

Post automatically merged: Nov 27, 2024

Also, I want to share something. When I died during the time in prison. I still had my own persona. So according to what zi experienced. You get to keep your personality. As RJ Spina said "you are whole and complete.