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[Opinion] At Some Point Every Occult Practitioner Will Have To Choose Between "The Human World" & "The Occult World", Else Fail/Have Medicore Results In Both

Everyone's got one.

Pestifer Mundi

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This thread doesn't really apply to "armchair magicians" that much, so I guess they don't have to take it into consideration (now, onto the thread).



This is probably going to be an unpopular opinion, but I think both of those "worlds" or "ways of life" are in direct conflict with each other, and at some point you are going to have to choose what you prioritize more. If you try to "have it all" you may just end up half assing both of them or failing at both, leaving you forever disappointed in the your life's outcomes.

I think a great example of this is the story I stumbled upon about an occultist that goes by the name "Somnus Dreadwood" (his real name is Eric).

Long story short, "real life" as people often put it ("The Human World") caught up to him.



He had an ex-wife (Catholic) and children, and he had a messy custody battle going on. To make things worse he found out that some guy his ex-wife is dating was abusing his son.

I found it weird that he didn't just kill the abuser and the ex-wife with magic, all those years of practice and occult knowledge, and you won't use it to save your child?. That's what I would have done, it's a quick and neat end to the custody battle lol, but that's not the topic for this thread so I won't even go into that any further :sneaky:.

The stress from all of this going on started to affect all of his "workings" in "The Occult World", and even resulted in him being excommunicated from his group before his final initiation by "the elders" of this group.

It's not over yet, he didn't even win the custody battle at the end of all of this. He wanted sole custody, which I think he should have gotten if his wife was that irresponsible.

Two videos on the issue here:
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So from my perspective:
He lost everything because he refused to choose what "world" he truly wanted to live in, or at least what "world" he wanted to prioritize more.

He was trying to "play both sides", "have his cake and eat it too", etc

On both ends things were starting to get stressful and hectic, but he didn't want to acknowledge that he'd have to choose one in order to atleast be successful in one of them. So he ended up failing at both as he scrambled to hold everything together.



I think it is nothing but delusion to think that you can "have it all" when it comes to those two "worlds", and there won't be any consequences or conflicts that result in unchangeable negative outcomes (loss, death, trauma, failure, unsatisfactory and mediocre results, etc).

Are there exceptions to the rule, yes I'm sure, but in most cases both "worlds" are going to be in conflict with eachother and at some point one is going to start "winning over" the other one, and while you panic and try to hold together the balancing act, you'll likely just end up dropping what's in both hands and breaking everything.

Some legitimate practitioners probably end up becoming "armchair magicians" in their attempt to cling to both "worlds".

Even before I heard of this story I always thought about this very thing, I've been thinking about it for years.

I'm very serious about the occult and the things I want to do seem impossible and far out of reach, and they will likely take decades if they are even possible.

I can't reasonably ever accomplish them if I have to worry about the safety of family, friends, children, etc.



I've never really been the "family" type of guy anyways, I've always been a loner. So I guess the loner path of a "purist occult practitioner" (or whatever words you'd use to describe it) are kind of convenient to me, it won't feel like a sacrifice like it will feel to many others.

At the same time, even if I woke up one day and wanted to go down the route of "living in both worlds", I wouldn't bother, because I realized long ago that if I did, I'd be putting them at risk, or I'd be putting my work/life path at risk.

There's no telling if something could go wrong and your child or wife ends up dead because you made a mistake or because you caught the eye of someone/something with malicious intent.

Practicing the occult on your own is one thing, practicing it with family and people you care about involved in your life is another thing entirely.

I already know someone is going to say "well if you know what you're doing X won't happen".

I think that's naive, the very nature of the occult is that you are dealing with forces that are mostly outside of your control, you might be the unlucky one to trigger something without even intending to.



There's also a lot of other factors to consider like:
1. Do you choose a partner that's also a practitioner so you don't have to hide your occult beliefs?

2. Do you even bother having children knowing how much time it will take away from your life's work, or are your occult practices not even something you would consider your "life's work" and you treat them as "just a hobby"? (how seriously do you take "The Occult World" VS "The Human World")

2. Do you raise your children (if you have any) into the occult, and if so do you teach them to hide that knowledge when at school so they don't get bullied or excluded by their peers?

3. Do you and your partner prioritize "The Human World" or "The Occult World" and by how much?

4. In a life and death situation what comes first, your "workings" or your "family"?

What if you are forced into a situation where you have to sacrifice your life's work in occult knowledge for your family or a friend.

Let's say you wake up in the middle of the night and your house is already set ablaze, there's no time to save both your computer/manuscript writings and your children asleep in their rooms. Who or what do you run to?

5. Etc, there are endless problems that could come up in this stressful balancing act of a life.



A lot of you might call the path I've chosen a "sad" or "lonely" life, but like I said, it isn't much of a sacrifice to someone like me, I've always been a loner. I've never really wanted kids all that much to begin with, it was more of a "fun thought" than a "desire", but for me magic and "The Occult World" has always been a desire, so there's no competition.

It just doesn't seem safe to "try and play both sides".

I may end up being forced into a situation where I'd have to choose, and sadly, I know I'd choose "The Occult World" even if I hesitated for a bit. So I won't even put myself or my "non-existent potential family" in that situation.

All I really want is a simple life where I have the health, free time and resources to pursue my research and practice of the occult.

This is exactly why I'd like to get into trading, it would be the perfect profession really.

My primary focus right now is to build up my finances and base occult knowledge so I can really dig in once I hit my mid 30's. Luckily I'm still in my 20's so I have some time.
 

Incognitus

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I don't really agree and (I don't mean this to be an insult) I think this says more about you than practitioners in general. And that's absolutely fine.

The "real world" and the occult are part of the same reality (for most of us). Some people can't juggle both, and probably shouldn't even be trying. I also gotta wonder why people marry others who don't really hold the same beliefs or are at least able to respect the beliefs and wants of the other person in the relationship. There's undoubtedly other conflict there, not just with the occult.

I'm lucky in that I'm married to someone who has a lot of the same interests I do. She's even part of the forum (Jaide). If one of us wasn't interested in the occult, I don't think it would cause any trouble for us. We both have children, but they're all grown, and we are discreet. Sometimes not being all out there in the public is the best bet. People these days will attack you for just about anything.

Let's say you wake up in the middle of the night and your house is already set ablaze, there's no time to save both your computer/manuscript writings and your children asleep in their rooms. Who or what do you run to?
Please never have children. What occult paths do you follow that put human life below occult workings? This question kind of blows my mind.
 

Pestifer Mundi

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The "real world" and the occult are part of the same reality (for most of us).
They really aren't the same, and it's easy to think that they are when it isn't a life and death situation.

We live in peaceful times, in a relatively stable world.

If you had an adversary in the occult world who was willing to go to great lengths to hurt you, you'd see just how separate these two realities are.

There are no laws, there's no "police", if they attacked you or a family member there'd be no evidence that could be used to have them jailed (the "real world" doesn't think magic is real).

You'd have to settle the matter under rules completely separate from the "real world" laws (you'd likely have to kill them)

These two worlds couldn't be more separate, we just live in convenient and safe times where that truth isn't blatantly apparent.

Please never have children.
I already said I don't want children and I don't plan on having any.

Were you reading selectively or did you just want to virtue signal that badly? lol

What occult paths do you follow that put human life below occult workings? This question kind of blows my mind.
My own path. If anything I find it weird how humans try to project this artificial value onto ourselves. We end billions of animals lives everyday just to eat something that "tastes good". Now I'm not a vegan or an animal activist, but I'm not so biased as to not see the point they're making when they bring this up.

It's funny when you think about it. Long ago a few animal sacrifices to a deity was a big deal, now we kill millions of livestock everyday to no deity, it's just to satisfy our hunger.

It's really just us deciding that our lives have so much value while everything else around us just exists to enhance our lives.

I try to look at things objectively, I don't practice anything with human sacrifice, nor would I seek that out (unless what I'm pursuing leads down that path), but in my book there's really no difference between burning sage, animal sacrifice or killing a human for an occult practice.

A life is a life, and each life values itself, humans are just the "apex predators" of the planet so we get to kill off and control everything else, and assert that it's our lives that are "truly" valuable.

Everything else is "just an animal" or "just a plant".


If a human is killed, what does it matter anyways if their "soul" is eternal?. They'll just reincarnate, go to an "afterlife", or whatever it is you believe happens after. They were going to die at some point anyways, regardless of whether or not you killed them.

I know it's going to be hard for you to understand what I'm saying, it'll just sound crazy to someone who can't look at this from an "outside looking in" perspective, someone who can't mentally distance themselves from the reality of "being a human", and take an objective unbiased look at the value of a human life.

We only place so much value on human life because were human's ourselves.

But in the grand scheme of things, humans don't really matter much.

If you truly believe that all these different powerful entities exist, then what is the value of a human life when compared to such a being?

I don't expect you to get what I'm saying because bias is inherent to your life experiences (you have a wife and children).
 

Incognitus

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We live in peaceful times, in a relatively stable world.
We live in hateful times where everyone attacks everyone else for little (and sometimes no) reason. Inflation in the US is insane. There are literally empty shelves at some stores again. We continue to have Covid mutations threatening lives on a global scale, mostly because some a-holes refuse to get the vaccine because "personal rights" (same people, btw, working their asses off to make abortion federally illegal again). Russia is threatening to invade Ukraine again. Democracy in the US is in some deep trouble. It's December in the US Northeast and it's going to be 60 degrees on Saturday, and oh, due to the changing climate, we're now becoming a new tornado alley. The US "ending" the war in Afghanistan is creating some pretty major issues, so if you define peaceful as "less official wars", sure sure...but that doesn't accurately reflect the state of the world right now.

What stable world are you living in?

If you had an adversary in the occult world who was willing to go to great lengths to hurt you, you'd see just how separate these two realities are.
Once again, I have to disagree. If I shoot said adversary in the face with a very real gun, I'm pretty sure my troubles are probably over. An over-simplification, but just outlines the fact that they are intertwined and what most people consider magick is probably a real universal power that we just don't understand how to tap into fully yet. Rather than be separate, it's a part of our current reality that we just don't understand very clearly, and more critically there's no way to fully separate them.

but in my book there's really no difference between burning sage, animal sacrifice or killing a human for an occult practice.
Yikes! ... Double yikes!

I don't expect you to get what I'm saying because bias is inherent to your life experiences (you have a wife and children).
The idea that people can't conceptualize things other than what they're currently living is an odd one. I wasn't always married. I didn't always have children. You're in your 20's, I'm almost 50. Why would you assume I'm too dense, or have less experience, to get what you're saying? Disagreeing doesn't indicate lack of understanding.

I completely get what you're saying. Nothing in your post is new, or edgy, or difficult to understand. I just think it's pretty fucked up that as a human being you would have to think of whether to save your writings or your children.

On the flip side, because I really like playing devils advocate, you clearly recognize this within yourself, and assuming what you post is true, you will probably take steps to never have to make a choice like that. So kudos for that, but the "real world", which requires you to eat, drink, sleep, work, pay taxes, pay the power bill so you can use the computer, etc, isn't going to go away just because you decide to concentrate on the occult. I assure you, unless you are dead, you will not be able to separate the two. If you can't integrate the two in some way, you're just creating un-needed internal conflict (I guess Crowley might say you're in conflict with your True Will), because you will not be able to completely get rid of the "real world".

Someday you might be put in the unfortunate position where someone else's well being depends on you in some way, and I would hope you would make the right choice. It doesn't diminish you. The answer to your hypothetical is easy: you save the children. Then you write everything over again. The stuff that really has meat, you'll remember and you'll be able to reproduce that. Plus you have a new major life experience that might cause you to look at something different, figure something out that you couldn't understand before. Who knows?
 

8Lou1

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I think that there is indeed a difference in a married occult path and a 1person path.

Eventhouhh i was already married, i've followed the 1person path. I loved it, but it became indeed to dangerous for my loved ones. I have cried over the spiritual connections i had to let go off, but for me it has always been family life. I came here to feel that love, so it is and was my natural choice.

It is not so much that the risk of getting in a witchwar is less, i was in a huge one and several little ones, but more that you get different tools. Also your loved ones get the possibility to be introduced into the occult that aligns with the familygroup. Actually all the things you mention i have done and experienced while having kids and a husband. The 2 things that werent possible for me was 1.marrying a spirit, as i am a 1guy woman and i have had several proposals from different paradigms. Sometimes i was glad i had to decline, sometimes it made me cry, sometimed we found a different way of working.
And 2. Current 218 makes my family litterally sick. And i really loved those spirits involved. So that was harsh. But you learn to let go and understand.

I think it is different for everyone. I have been on the vampiretrail for a while now and i understand why you would choose a pc over kids. As i wrote above, i came here to learn love, so in that sense im quite different, but i always long for the 'ice cold winter'.
I am learning to tap into it differently now. If it is rhe right decision, i dont know, but in this life i enjoy it. So be it. 😎
 

Pestifer Mundi

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We live in hateful times where everyone attacks everyone else for little (and sometimes no) reason. Inflation in the US is insane. There are literally empty shelves at some stores again. We continue to have Covid mutations threatening lives on a global scale, mostly because some a-holes refuse to get the vaccine because "personal rights" (same people, btw, working their asses off to make abortion federally illegal again). Russia is threatening to invade Ukraine again. Democracy in the US is in some deep trouble. It's December in the US Northeast and it's going to be 60 degrees on Saturday, and oh, due to the changing climate, we're now becoming a new tornado alley. The US "ending" the war in Afghanistan is creating some pretty major issues, so if you define peaceful as "less official wars", sure sure...but that doesn't accurately reflect the state of the world right now.

What stable world are you living in?
I said relatively stable and it is peaceful, are you just pretending like you don't know how bad things were for the average person thousands of years ago. I guess this is the point of the discourse where you start being disingenuous.

Were speaking from our homes comfortably through the internet, we have running water, we aren't at risk of having to fight and kill for food, we have all these modern day conveniences, with laws and police to protect us.

We do in fact live in peaceful times, you would have to be delusional to say otherwise.

In the far past it would be a normal everyday thing to watch someone die or have to kill someone. Today this is all "entertainment" in TV shows and Movies. That's how far removed people today are from a dangerous world.

If I shoot said adversary in the face with a very real gun, I'm pretty sure my troubles are probably over.
Then you'd go to "very real jail" because saying you had to defend yourself against "very real magic" won't fly in court :ROFLMAO:

An over-simplification, but just outlines the fact that they are intertwined and what most people consider magick is probably a real universal power that we just don't understand how to tap into fully yet. Rather than be separate, it's a part of our current reality that we just don't understand very clearly, and more critically there's no way to fully separate them.
Once again, don't be disingenuous, I'm not saying they're separate in that sense, I'm saying they're separate worlds in the sense that the rules and requirements are different. The value system and importance placed on certain things are different.

If someone shoots you with a gun they'll probably get caught and go to jail

But they could put a death curse on you, in public, while being video taped, and never see a day in prison because it can't be proven in court

The two worlds don't function by the same rules, and as much as you seem the think, I don't think they function based on the same "moral code" either.

Yikes! ... Double yikes!
Please stop with the reddit tier responses, that's cringe. Are you sure your kids are grown, I thought you were in your late 40's or 50's but you are sounding like someone in their 20's.

I don't know when this yikes thing caught on, but it needs to stop.

The idea that people can't conceptualize things other than what they're currently living is an odd one.
I don't believe that you can't, I believe that you don't want to, so the end result is the same, and why would you want to, I mean "Double yikes!" lol

Someday you might be put in the unfortunate position where someone else's well being depends on you in some way, and I would hope you would make the right choice.
There is no such thing as "right" or "wrong", they're made up human concepts. The choice I'd make depends on the severity of loss on either side. It depends on how much the value of that persons well being measures up to what I risk losing.

For example, in this thread:

For my ultimate goal I'd sacrifice an entire country and I won't even blink, that's a quadruple yikes for you lol.
My objective is immortality and transcending humanity

Similar to what the famous alchemist Nicolas Flamel is said to have done

you save the children. Then you write everything over again.
You are assuming it's information that can be simply rewritten, if it was that simple I'd never have posed the question. I thought there was an obvious implication of it being unrecoverable, hence why I made it an ultimatum. What's the point of an ultimatum with no "either or" stipulation?

I thought what I was asking was obvious.





Eventhouhh i was already married, i've followed the 1person path.
Maybe this is the optimal path, you have your married life first and then you pursue "The Occult World" after.

i understand why you would choose a pc over kids.
Lol, when you put it that way it just makes me sound even more cruel. I'd choose the PC if it had my life's work in the occult and I could not replicate it. If it's just a computer with games on it I won't think twice about leaving it behind and saving the children instead.

"Magic" just means more to me than people.
 

8Lou1

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Hehehe, i totally understood that properly then.

Diving deep,
The centre even deeper,
Ice cold winter,
Hunger,
Rage,
Love...

Ever danced with a lady before?
 

Incognitus

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You make a lot of incorrect assumptions about me. Reddit tier response? Wha? Sadly, that's how I really talk and I don't use reddit. I'm pretty sure I literally turned around to Jaide and said "YIKES!" when I explained the thread to her. You knew this would be a thread with strong opinions, if you can consider "writing over human beings more important" an "opinion". The first sentence alone was made to get a rise out of people (when most of us just think you're a jackass because you think you can make a judgement on who is an "armchair magician"). The very beginning states it'll be unpopular. You knew you would get this response (if there are any sane people around). Maybe you're an epic level troll and I've lost the game.

Meanwhile, you sound like a straight up sociopath.

I get it. We want to be all inclusive. We don't want to discourage posting, and we want to be respectful of other peoples beliefs. "Let the kids burn" isn't personal belief. It's quite seriously fucked up to any sane person.

I'll stop now. I've said what I wanted to say. Please continue with your mental masturbation.
 

Pestifer Mundi

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you think you can make a judgement on who is an "armchair magician"
I never said what defines an armchair magician in this thread, I said this thread wouldn't apply to them much because magic is basically just a hobby to them, so it won't get in the way of "The Human World" or "real life".

I get it. We want to be all inclusive. We don't want to discourage posting, and we want to be respectful of other peoples beliefs. "Let the kids burn" isn't personal belief. It's quite seriously fucked up to any sane person.
Do you not see the irony in what you're saying when you have probably "channeled", communicated with and/or worshiped entities that have been sacrificed to?.

It's kinda hypocritical don't you think?

So you get to dabble in workings with these beings but your hands are clean?

How convenient lol.

Oh let me guess, you've only ever dealt with entities that have never received a single human sacrifice and you know that for a fact. Once again, convenient.
 

Mider2009

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you Have to live in both worlds, you’re a human n as long as you’re human you need to eat etc, so should you have a partner sympathetic to your beliefs sure, do you have to raise the kids in it...it’s up to you, personally I don’t want kids.

If the guy had no magic ability would his life suddenly have gone smoother?

Second a tip for everyone, you can’t just curse people to death, people even if you can curse them are still resilient...and magic won’t always help you, some times You lose.
 

Roma

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Is karma an issue for magicians?

If karma is present, sometimes it may be better to let the matter die
 

Pestifer Mundi

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you Have to live in both worlds, you’re a human n as long as you’re human you need to eat etc
I'm not talking about "The Human World" in the sense of eating, sleeping, breathing, etc. I'm talking in the sense of relationships and commitments. You can't be both serious about "The Occult World" and "The Human World" at the same time, because at some point something is going to come up in either one in which you'll have to make a choice to prioritize one over the other.

That guy's life was a perfect example. He should have:
1. Used his magic to get rid of his ex-wife and the abuser, and then leave magic behind and dedicate his time solely to getting his son, keeping him safe, and raising him (chosen "The Human World").

OR

2. Forget about his human connections (relationships), focus on his upcoming initiation and his occult practices, and avoid being excommunicated by his elders (chosen "The Occult World").

BUT

He didn't want to make a choice, he instead chose to struggle and play some weird balancing act to hold onto everything, so he ended up failing at both.

This is just an extreme case though, in the average case the usual outcome is probably that the person in question ends up with "mediocre" results in both "worlds" rather than complete failure.

Unhappy marriages
Family troubles
Unruly/problematic children
Never reaches their ultimate goal in magic (their Magnum Opus) - For an alchemist that may be actually creating a philosophers stone.
Magic becomes a "hobby" or "pastime"
They become an armchair magician (theory and reading only, stops practicing)
Etc

If the guy had no magic ability would his life suddenly have gone smoother?
I'd argue yes. In fact it may be his dealings in "The Occult World" that led to some of the troubles he has in "The Human World". You're dealing with all these different spirits, entities, energies, etc and then you come home to your family, and you don't think something residual that you brought home with you could interfere with the minds and/or health of your family?

It could have been what caused a change in his wife's attitude or mindset and led to her wanting a divorce, he himself could have been affected in that same way and that led to a lot of conflict and then divorce.

There's so much that could go wrong with magic, and that's my point, trying to hold onto both is really just putting the people around you at risk.



Is karma an issue for magicians?

If karma is present, sometimes it may be better to let the matter die
I don't even think karma exists, I think the universe is too chaotic for such a system and people just hope something like that exists because it makes them feel safer and it makes them feel better about all the bad things that happen in life, because there's some "ultimate reward" waiting for them and for the people who are "evil" there is some "ultimate punishment".

People take great comfort in the idea of karma.

Even if it does exist, I'm sure there are some magicians who have overcome it, and can operate outside the rules of the universe.

When you think about it, that's exactly what magic is, operating outside of the rules, they'd just be taking it a step further.
 

Mider2009

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In many ways it’s like dating someone in different religions so maybe you have a point

some religions say you should only marry within the religion...some go as far as to make it a law, i Agree in that it reduces conflict but I don’t agree in that I won’t be part of that religion but I agree to their right to it.

if I ever have a wife I guess I’ve kinda wondered how I’d tell her hey do you kn9w who Death is? Well she’s a saint and my companion...I mean I worship God so it’s cool, lol I doubt it would go over well.

and you’re also right, I think you have to be very careful at what energies you bring into your home. I knew a guy, he was a real jerk and mistreated his gf, I think in the end her ancestors got tired of him n split them up.
 

Mider2009

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Is karma an issue for magicians?

If karma is present, sometimes it may be better to let the matter die
It can be but if you forgive n do other acts you can reduce it, if you forgive others you reduce karma for you n them. they say when we die and all pass through the fires of gehinnom, for the Tzadik it’s just warm for those with serious karma it can be extremely painful.
 

8Lou1

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Yup totally correct. Thats why many end up calling themselves grey witches/warlocks/etc. We all use both sides and both sides are often defined different person to person. Its wyrd to say the least...
 
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