[Opinion] Can magic keep being active after a magician dies?

[Morell]

I've heard arguments going both ways. I wonder though, if it is real and about the conditions for it.

I assume that if the mage is solitary practitioner, then his magic fades with his death or soon after it as none other knows about the spell and it discharges and dissolves.

In an occult group it can turn different. If the mage starts a spell and teaches others about it, they can keep inheriting the secret and keep the magic going as long as they don't go too far from the original. Though even here I wonder if the slow change is the disadvantage or is just aspect of survival of the magic.

Thought?

 

[iseht]

As with all things its complicated. Dion Fortune considered that a working requires sustained attention to retain its effect which is my interpretation as well. This draws neatly into concepts like egregores and magical currents where the magic clearly can outlive the mage if a group picks it up. I would consider a spell done in secret to only live as long as its creator fuels it.

However, Agrippa has this on talismans, "If the Moon is unfortunate, [carved] in lead, and buried in some place, it makes that place—as well as its inhabitants, visitors, ships, springs, rivers, and mills—unfortunate. It makes all men against
whom it was duly made unfortunate, making them flee from their land
and country and from the place of their home wherever [the image] is buried. "

That seems to imply that something intrinsic to the talisman, the metal used, will sustain the effects beyond the practitioner's focus. As I recall the Key of Solomon has something similar on talismans. Perhaps what is needed is a material anchor, this can either be the practitioner or the metal or stone or whatever that the influence is placed in.

 

[tetradicTendencies]

honestly i have no idea, but i have a multi-part question as newb to divination:

• if i successfully divine future events, does the magic "end" at the spell? or does it persist until the event occurs? if the latter, if i die before the event occurs, does that make the fortold event less likely somehow due to a diminished foreknowledge and intent from me?
• if i can make a spell that effectively makes passive divination active to the point that it's basically tychokinesis, does that change in certainty persist if i die after the spell but before the intended circumstance?

my intuition would say that the fortold/intended event would in fact go through regardless of my being there
if the magic "ends" at the spell but the influence still persists, doesn't that mean that the magic still persists due to the transitive property?

i'm new to all this, i'd love to hear your input!

 

[FireBorn]

I dont want to derail your thread @Morell but your question touches on something I have been sitting with for a while, and I think its worth breaking out this distinction because it addresses your question, even if it shifts the lens a bit. If you feel its pushing your topic too far off course, happy to spin it into separate thread. I will probably write and wrestle with it more at a later date anyway.

When I use magick, I touch the current. That current exists whether I do or not. So how I harness that current and manipulate the world with it is only as valid as my energy that maintains it, like a fire fueled by wood. If I cast a binding spell, then I croak tonight, what holds the spell? Its not on autopilot. If it were, we would have to explain to practitioners that they are wasting time recharging their wards and charms and talismans right? Sorry to those who want it to be set it and forget it, that's just not what I've seen.

There is also the aspect of ritualistic magick which is different than spell casting. Spellcasting is internalized magick/power and ritualistic magick is externalized magick/power. Calling a spirit and petitioning, whole different thing, not less, just different. Yes, I believe that could outlast a practitioner. Asking a demon to carry out a curse for example, that can last generations, depending on how the practitioner set it up.

Is the magick bound to a mortal circuit or an immortal one? Massive shift, and the nuance seems to be completely missed. It matters. Hope that makes sense.

Last thing, there is a shit ton of nuance in what I laid out. No it is not objectively true, and not perfect in all cases. I may even have missed a few things, like generational hexes, cursed objects, etc. I dont have answers, its magick after all. I confuse myself wrestling this at times, so now you get to wrestle it too. You're welcome.

I just run my mouth and a push broom. YMMV

 

[Sabbatius]

I have to say yes.

My conclusion is based on the works done at specific sites by individual medicine workers who protected areas of high spiritual value to a specific practice. Not all areas, including some of the Medicine Wheels, were group gathering sites. These were overseen, utilized and protected by a single medicine worker who would assist those who needed their medicine.

These locations are intense, whether it is a build up of generational power, as many trained another to pass on the medicine of the area, or built and used by an individual, the medicine remains.

 

[AlfrunGrima]

I've heard arguments going both ways. I wonder though, if it is real and about the conditions for it.

I assume that if the mage is solitary practitioner, then his magic fades with his death or soon after it as none other knows about the spell and it discharges and dissolves.

In an occult group it can turn different. If the mage starts a spell and teaches others about it, they can keep inheriting the secret and keep the magic going as long as they don't go too far from the original. Though even here I wonder if the slow change is the disadvantage or is just aspect of survival of the magic.

Thought?

I was immediately thinking about the familiar: in a lot of cases witches gives them familiars to another family member or to another witch. I don't know if other magic workers do the same because I have not so much knowledge about other paths and traditions.

 

[Shalux]

I do not have a personal example, but what about energy traces, too? Couldn't a particular concentration of energy gathered and left somewhere still be present after the magician's physical death?

 

[AlfrunGrima]

. Calling a spirit and petitioning, whole different thing, not less, just different. Yes, I believe that could outlast a practitioner. Asking a demon to carry out a curse for example, that can last generations, depending on how the practitioner set it up.

Yes I agree to that. And it is similar to the allies I have with spirits and the connections with the local folk tales I have here. Some places and allies in my region grow in their power if I give them my attention. I discovered that if I feed that, people here in the village connect more to those folk tales. And this changes something in the community. I still don't know how that works, but my choices in connections can influence people around me in one or another way. Maybe our mind connects and communicates more about a lot of things without that we even knowing that. (That makes though control even more important for magicians, but this is a side note)

Post automatically merged: 20 minutes ago

I do not have a personal example, but what about energy traces, too? Couldn't a particular concentration of energy gathered and left somewhere still be present after the magician's physical death?

I think if it is feeded strong and often enough, it would be possible. But it is difficult to make tangible how much is needed to get energy on that stage.