• Hi guest! As you can see, the new Wizard Forums has been revived, and we are glad to have you visiting our site! However, it would be really helpful, both to you and us, if you registered on our website! Registering allows you to see all posts, and make posts yourself, which would be great if you could share your knowledge and opinions with us! You could also make posts to ask questions!

Chaos Magick and Robert Anton Wilson Ruined Abramelin

jkeller293

Zealot
Joined
Jan 28, 2025
Messages
160
Reaction score
135
Awards
2
I've already done the work, I just saw a video from somebody talking about how "weird and impossible" Abramelin is so wanted to put forth my theory as to why this idea exist. Liber LXV is great, personally even as a non-Thelemite I have a great appreciation for Crowley's work - but most people into traditional Western magick (whether due to ignorance or personal bias) don't take him seriously.
Alot of it would be personal bias towards him. I know Steven Skinner is very critical about him — i would not say he is the ignorant type based on the ammount of work he has done with studying western ceremonial magick and greco-egyptian magick.

The way i personally see him is that he was looking for attention which is primarily the reason he has that evil persona attached to him. He did start getting attention in a bad way and then he looked to inflate that attention. Of course i do not exactly know if im right here, but this is my assumption.
Post automatically merged:

Alot of it would be personal bias towards him. I know Steven Skinner is very critical about him — i would not say he is the ignorant type based on the ammount of work he has done with studying western ceremonial magick and greco-egyptian magick.

The way i personally see him is that he was looking for attention which is primarily the reason he has that evil persona attached to him. He did start getting attention in a bad way and then he looked to inflate that attention. Of course i do not exactly know if im right here, but this is my assumption.
Personally i am not a fan of his work — not to say some parts do not present any value. I liked austin osman spare a bit more if we are to be talking about modern writers.
 

bartyblack

Neophyte
Joined
Mar 4, 2022
Messages
16
Reaction score
26
Alot of it would be personal bias towards him. I know Steven Skinner is very critical about him — i would not say he is the ignorant type based on the ammount of work he has done with studying western ceremonial magick and greco-egyptian magick.

The way i personally see him is that he was looking for attention which is primarily the reason he has that evil persona attached to him. He did start getting attention in a bad way and then he looked to inflate that attention. Of course i do not exactly know if im right here, but this is my assumption.
Post automatically merged:


Personally i am not a fan of his work — not to say some parts do not present any value. I liked austin osman spare a bit more if we are to be talking about modern writers.
Oh yeah, I don't think Crowley was ignorant in the slightest. He was very serious about finding all the information he could about magick and spirituality. Just the people who criticize his work with all the usual complaints I don't think actually know his work and are themselves ignorant. He was a great jokester and very much a Pan-trickster character. My favorite work of his is "Magick Without Tears," which I think is his most candid and clear series of discourses on magick.
 

HoldAll

Librarian
Staff member
Librarian
Joined
Jul 3, 2023
Messages
4,462
Reaction score
20,567
Awards
15
I'll try to steer the discussion away from Crowley and back to the Abramelin here. In my opinion, Crowley first heard about guardian angels from some Catholic schoolmates of his, then read the Mathers translation of the Abramelin book, two years after it came out when he was still in the GD, then decided in a bout of youthful exuberance (he was 24 at the time) to try it. He was probably aware of his carnal appetites and hedonistic inclinations so he decided to isolate himself in a remote part of Scotland to prevent himself from backsliding, so to speak - which would have never worked anyway, Crowley being Crowley. It would have been different for a mature person who has long settled down and possessed a much more stable personality. Without having read the Mathers or the Dehn translation, I get the impression that the overall 'Abramelin workload' is not much more demanding (and less strenous) than that of an ambitious amateur athlete who gets up early in the morning for some roadwork and hits the gym or dojo in the evening after work. What Crowley most likely had in mind was a retreat, and by now us Westerners have heard about what e.g. Tibetan monks get up to in this respect, for example living in a cave for twelve years, so that probably also played a certain role in creating the onerous and forbidding image of the Abramelin.

I personally wasn't aware of any 'RAW movement', I didn't even know that Wilson wrote about the HGA.

As to chaos magick, I'm under the impression that it arouse when some young wanna-be wizards in the early Seventies became frustrated with the sanctimonious high-magic rhetoric of Eliphas Levi, Crowley, Dion Fortune, W.E. Butler, etc. because they wanted to know how to, you know, actually get stuff (I guess witchcraft and folk magic never had that problem). Then Pete Carroll chanced about Spare's sigil magic, and the rest was history. My impression is that chaos magic doesn't lend itself easily to high magic endeavours like Knowledge and Conversation with one's Holy Guardian Angel but it does one inspire to think outside the box (and oftentimes dismantle the box itself in the process). However, attaining K&C is not like getting a raise or getting laid next Friday. In my own experience, chaos magic is not very well suited to long-term projects in general - to specific one-time results, ok, but not to drawn-out processes.

However, I've had this idea about how to establish contact with my guardian angel using chaos sigil magic: first you formulate your Sentence of Desire and draw yourself a sigil according to the usual methods. Then you return to the letters used for the sigil and see if you can combine them into cool-sounding barbarous words (what Carroll calls the 'mantrical spell method'); feel free to discard any letters you don't need but don't add any new ones. It would be best to create some sort of physical talisman by carving the sigil into wood, on a lump of playdough, etc. and then hold that talisman (in a specific mudra?) while meditating, silently reciting your HGA mantra and visualising the associated sigil, say for half an hour every day. It might work, I think.
 

jkeller293

Zealot
Joined
Jan 28, 2025
Messages
160
Reaction score
135
Awards
2
I'll try to steer the discussion away from Crowley and back to the Abramelin here. In my opinion, Crowley first heard about guardian angels from some Catholic schoolmates of his, then read the Mathers translation of the Abramelin book, two years after it came out when he was still in the GD, then decided in a bout of youthful exuberance (he was 24 at the time) to try it. He was probably aware of his carnal appetites and hedonistic inclinations so he decided to isolate himself in a remote part of Scotland to prevent himself from backsliding, so to speak - which would have never worked anyway, Crowley being Crowley. It would have been different for a mature person who has long settled down and possessed a much more stable personality. Without having read the Mathers or the Dehn translation, I get the impression that the overall 'Abramelin workload' is not much more demanding (and less strenous) than that of an ambitious amateur athlete who gets up early in the morning for some roadwork and hits the gym or dojo in the evening after work. What Crowley most likely had in mind was a retreat, and by now us Westerners have heard about what e.g. Tibetan monks get up to in this respect, for example living in a cave for twelve years, so that probably also played a certain role in creating the onerous and forbidding image of the Abramelin.

I personally wasn't aware of any 'RAW movement', I didn't even know that Wilson wrote about the HGA.

As to chaos magick, I'm under the impression that it arouse when some young wanna-be wizards in the early Seventies became frustrated with the sanctimonious high-magic rhetoric of Eliphas Levi, Crowley, Dion Fortune, W.E. Butler, etc. because they wanted to know how to, you know, actually get stuff (I guess witchcraft and folk magic never had that problem). Then Pete Carroll chanced about Spare's sigil magic, and the rest was history. My impression is that chaos magic doesn't lend itself easily to high magic endeavours like Knowledge and Conversation with one's Holy Guardian Angel but it does one inspire to think outside the box (and oftentimes dismantle the box itself in the process). However, attaining K&C is not like getting a raise or getting laid next Friday. In my own experience, chaos magic is not very well suited to long-term projects in general - to specific one-time results, ok, but not to drawn-out processes.

However, I've had this idea about how to establish contact with my guardian angel using chaos sigil magic: first you formulate your Sentence of Desire and draw yourself a sigil according to the usual methods. Then you return to the letters used for the sigil and see if you can combine them into cool-sounding barbarous words (what Carroll calls the 'mantrical spell method'); feel free to discard any letters you don't need but don't add any new ones. It would be best to create some sort of physical talisman by carving the sigil into wood, on a lump of playdough, etc. and then hold that talisman (in a specific mudra?) while meditating, silently reciting your HGA mantra and visualising the associated sigil, say for half an hour every day. It might work, I think.
If you do try this method of yours i would love to hear how well it worked for you — although this is a personal thing, I would like to know how effective it is for HGA.

I do have a suggestion for altering your method that i have personally thought of in the past which i never attempted.

Instead of the regular chaos magic were you would make a sigil with the remaining letters you have, i thought of making a phonetic image representing all the sounds of the remaining letters. So it would be like illustration of a mythical beast with several different types of animals mixed into one. Or it could be a abstract image only making sense to you in your own mind to illustrate the sounds of the remaining letters — or a combination of both that and the mythical beast to extend EMOTION into the art.

I will save this for another thread. Writting this down here so i dont forget forgive me, going way off topic.
 

HoldAll

Librarian
Staff member
Librarian
Joined
Jul 3, 2023
Messages
4,462
Reaction score
20,567
Awards
15
The subject line is basically the thesis of my post. Every day for the past 15 years I see some nonsense from people where they are convinced that Abramelin or any ceremony to attain Knowledge and Conversation of the Holy Guardian Angel is the most intense, difficult, insane shite ever when it is literally one of the simplest ritual procedures to accomplish with hardly any elbow grease. The damn book itself even says that its rules are more guidelines than Gospel truth. So long as the operant doesn't get laid out in bed with illness after taking the vow, assume it's working. Really not that hard.

My proposition that this is the fault of the Chaos Magick and RAW movement is because of their idea that everything in magickal effects has exclusively to do with the psychological impact upon the operator. What logically flows from this is that the more extreme a practice one goes through (Death Posture, anyone?), the more powerful the result will be. So you take this tendency, combine it with Crowley's adoration and exaltation of the KC/HGA experience, and you end up with "I can't meet my angel guardian because I can't quit work for five years and live in a trailer in the desert." The grimoire itself doesn't even call for that in the first place. Whoever takes on the work of the procedure, even by an "orthodox" method, can live a basically normal life with a little prayer and Catholic style fasting right up until the day of the operation. Up until very recently the vast majority of Christians fasted on one proper meal a day with maybe a small snack at another point while working quite physical jobs.

Personally, I think the Abramelin should be rewritten for the people of today who have a significantly shortened attention span, and a far lower tolerance for difficulty. Working from Agrippa's discussions of the purpose of purification being to get us into a "phrensy" or an ecstatic state, not much has to be done now. Everything moves so much faster than it did back in the 14th century that even a week or two could maybe be enough, especially for the younger folks who are typically undisciplined. Just turning off Instagram and TikTok for a few days already has a serious psychological effect that gears one up for big celestial workings.

Dehn translation, Book Three, Ch. 10:

It is best to go into the wilderness and be in solitude until the time is over and the work completed - in the same way that the holy forefathers did. This may be almost impossible; everybody needs to live in the time and with people. If it is not possible to go into the wilderness, then avoid company and business dealings. Because of duty and profession, this is impossible for many people.

I think that these instruction led many over-zealous occult enthusiasts to the conclusion that the more extreme their practical approach to the Abramelin was, the better, but as you correctly said, it isn't strictly necessary. There are more extreme spiritual programs like the
Please, Log in or Register to view URLs content!
practices in Tibetan Buddhism with its 100,000 prostrations (and that's just for starters), or Franz Bardon's "Initiation into Hermetics" which is said to require 7 - 30 years to complete.

There is allegedly this Japanese proverb according to which "There are no shortcuts to success" but it wouldn't be practical occultism if aspirants weren't constantly on the lookout for easier, simpler, or faster ways to attain their spiritual goals, and that didn't start only with Robert Anton Wilson or chaos magic. Crowley introduced Indian Yoga into magic, and before him Western occultism appropriated kabbalah and streamlined it for its own ends, to the dismay and indignation of Jewish mystics and rabbis. Tibetan buddhists adopted Indian tantra to speed up the enlightenment process, and today everybody borrows/steals from everyone else.

I suspect the main obstacle for adepts today is the heartfelt prayinh ("Inflame thyself with prayer!") which I would be never able to pull off, not believing in an immanent monotheist god, or any god, period. I wonder if there is any workaround for this… but then the result wouldn't be the Abramelin, would it?
 

bartyblack

Neophyte
Joined
Mar 4, 2022
Messages
16
Reaction score
26
Dehn translation, Book Three, Ch. 10:

It is best to go into the wilderness and be in solitude until the time is over and the work completed - in the same way that the holy forefathers did. This may be almost impossible; everybody needs to live in the time and with people. If it is not possible to go into the wilderness, then avoid company and business dealings. Because of duty and profession, this is impossible for many people.

I think that these instruction led many over-zealous occult enthusiasts to the conclusion that the more extreme their practical approach to the Abramelin was, the better, but as you correctly said, it isn't strictly necessary. There are more extreme spiritual programs like the
Please, Log in or Register to view URLs content!
practices in Tibetan Buddhism with its 100,000 prostrations (and that's just for starters), or Franz Bardon's "Initiation into Hermetics" which is said to require 7 - 30 years to complete.

There is allegedly this Japanese proverb according to which "There are no shortcuts to success" but it wouldn't be practical occultism if aspirants weren't constantly on the lookout for easier, simpler, or faster ways to attain their spiritual goals, and that didn't start only with Robert Anton Wilson or chaos magic. Crowley introduced Indian Yoga into magic, and before him Western occultism appropriated kabbalah and streamlined it for its own ends, to the dismay and indignation of Jewish mystics and rabbis. Tibetan buddhists adopted Indian tantra to speed up the enlightenment process, and today everybody borrows/steals from everyone else.

I suspect the main obstacle for adepts today is the heartfelt prayinh ("Inflame thyself with prayer!") which I would be never able to pull off, not believing in an immanent monotheist god, or any god, period. I wonder if there is any workaround for this… but then the result wouldn't be the Abramelin, would it?
Kabbalah is just Neo-Platonism in Aramaic, but that's neither here nor there.

The proposal of this ideal to go hide in the forest is based on the story of the book, where he did it in the desert - though to be fair, that was in much shorter a time as he describes it. Social seclusion is unquestionably an important part of this as well as other magickal processes.

I forget that people generally speaking don't know how to be excited in prayer. To me it's as simple a state to walk into as putting on my pants. Agrippa even says "phrensy" is necessary for all theurgy. All part of our Dionysian mystery-cult heritage. I hope you have ways to get into that state to pull things off.
 

Robert Ramsay

Disciple
Joined
Oct 1, 2023
Messages
871
Reaction score
1,793
Awards
7
I would also say that the 'seclusion' part is because interacting with other people can reduce the signal in the signal-to-noise ratio for any magical act - especially when it's as major as this one. Synchronicity is just randomised, intentionless magic - that's why all those incredible coincidences are usually utterly pointless. "My taxicab number this morning was the same as the last digits of my credit card number - the Universe must be trying to tell me something!" :D
 
Joined
Apr 16, 2025
Messages
108
Reaction score
155
Awards
2
The Abra-Melin isn't necessary for communication with your guardian angel.

There, I said it.


I'll also say this: Good luck making contact with ChAoS mAgIcK.
 

beardedeldridge

Acolyte
Joined
Mar 4, 2023
Messages
361
Reaction score
1,622
Awards
7
The Abra-Melin isn't necessary for communication with your guardian angel.

There, I said it.


I'll also say this: Good luck making contact with ChAoS mAgIcK.
Of course not. Like running on a treadmill isn’t the only way to get in shape but it is a well documented and trusted method…

And sure a chaote can make contact with the HGA. Or maybe I’m reading that last line wrong???
 
Joined
Apr 16, 2025
Messages
108
Reaction score
155
Awards
2
Of course not. Like running on a treadmill isn’t the only way to get in shape but it is a well documented and trusted method…

And sure a chaote can make contact with the HGA. Or maybe I’m reading that last line wrong???

This is good input. Yes, a, what did you call it? Chaote? I thought that was a small Mexican squash. Or is that a chayote? At any rate anyone can make contact with their guardian angel. My statement was that I wished luck to those using chaotic means to make contact with spiritual entities that operate above chaos.
Post automatically merged:

I've already done the work, I just saw a video from somebody talking about how "weird and impossible" Abramelin is so wanted to put forth my theory as to why this idea exist. Liber LXV is great, personally even as a non-Thelemite I have a great appreciation for Crowley's work - but most people into traditional Western magick (whether due to ignorance or personal bias) don't take him seriously.

I think this is creating a false dichotomy here. It could be that "most" people in traditional Western magick practices don't take Crowley seriously not because they're ignorant of his work, but because even the most neophytic of them take their work more seriously than did a man who relied on drugs, chaos and pedophilia to reach enlightenment. So a third possibility is dedicated and erudite practitioners eschew his work precisely because they're familiar with it.
 
Last edited:

Kepler

Neophyte
Joined
May 9, 2025
Messages
21
Reaction score
12
Bringing rich, distinct symbols that represent the universe into a unity of my understanding of truth from the variety of experience was important for me. From that the development of an English Qabalah contributed to the event. Increased receptivity. Gave the entity traction to communicate through the distinguishing characteristics, allowing me also to recognize and share that information back. Then things really escalated. That's where I can definitely say I passed the Veil and was in hyperphysical communication for 3 months.
 

Diamond-otherkin

Neophyte
Joined
Apr 16, 2025
Messages
8
Reaction score
15
I agree. Very simple put, I think the key to attaining Knowledge and Conversation is self-transformation. Virtually every religion and paradigm includes methods how to achieve this goal but of which the author of the Abramelin was completely unaware in his time, so he proposed the only ones he knew, such as praying, fasting, confession, etc. Times have changed, however and now there's a plethora of tools such as Eastern-style meditation at our disposal we can use to aid us in this endeavour. Here are some proposals regarding the way of making contact with your HGA:

* The whole process should be open-ended, a sort of dharma/do instead of being limited to a set period of time - and if it takes years, so be it. Furthermore, one should be prepared to employ new methods as one progresses because all too often it takes some personal development to appreciate new ways or rediscover old ones one has previously overlooked or ignored.

* Similarly, we should rid of the idea that the HGA will one day suddenly appear as a glorious apparition in a climactic scene as the fruit of our intense labour; rather, we should expect contact to be gradual, in very subtle ways that may be different for everyone.

I've long ceased to be a starry-eyed GoM fanboy but I think Damon Brand makes some good points in his "Magical Destiny". Here is a quote from his HGA Protocol One:

Whether you are sitting or standing, open your arms so that your palms are facing upward. This is similar to the gesture you would make to an old friend, meaning they should come in for a hug. This gesture is an act of welcoming and despite its simplicity, is an extremely powerful way to invite the Angel. Of course, just opening your arms with your palms facing up does nothing in itself, but you are doing this with the intention of welcoming your Angel. That makes all the difference.

Peter J. Carroll proposes a similar procedure in Liber Null & Psychonaut:

Directly on awakening, preferably at dawn, the initiate goes to the place of invocation. Figuring as one goes that being born anew each day brings with it the chance of greater rebirth, first one banishes the temple of the mind by ritual or by some magical trance. Then one unveils some token or symbol or sigil which represents the holy guardian angel. This symbol will likely have to change during the great work as the inspiration begins to move. Next one invokes an image of the angel into the mind’s eye. It may be considered as a luminous duplicate of one’s own form standing in front of or behind oneself, or simply as a ball of brilliant light above one’s head. Then one formulates aspirations in any chosen manner, by humble prayer or exalting proclamation as need be.

The best form of this invocation is spoken spontaneously from the heart and, if halting at first, will prove itself in time. The aim is to establish a set of ideas and images which correspond to the nature of one’s genius and at the same time receive inspiration from that source.


For me, these seemingly simple rituals are a substitute for "enflaming oneself with prayer", a very intimate way of becoming receptive to the presence of one's HGA. I said "seemingly simple" because it may not so easy for some to open up completely to an entity supposedly vastly superior to you, for example (I think it was Marcus Katz in his "After the Angel" who angrily called himself a 'worthless worm' in his Abramelin diary), or you may be emotionally repressed, another obstacle to overcome. In a way, Protocol One is therefore likely akin to a confession, and I would recommend freely speaking one's thoughts, expressing one's fears, doubts, cautious affection or whatever.

Or Protocol Three:

This Protocol involves performing physical actions with the intention that they will help you make contact with your Angel. Some of the ways you can do this are quite obvious, but others will require more explanation.

Throughout the history of magick, gestures have been used as a form of ritual. Even the first Protocol in this book uses the gesture of the open arms with your palm facing upward. The idea is that by performing a repeated motion, that has meaning and intention, it becomes far more than a simple act of movement. It becomes magick as soon as you want it to be magick.


Damon Brand suggests walking, and although he says that it could be any physical task, I think it's best to choose a prolonged activity, something you do every day for an extended period of time (again, going for a walk may be easiest). The point is to remember your guardian angel on a daily basis, not just thinking of it but linking this awareness to certain bodily sensations which makes the remembering process more robust.

Tl; dr: I think we should stop considering the Abramelin the One and True Royal Road to the HGA and be flexible enough to adopt any modern methods we find useful for attaining Knowledge and Conversation.
Thanks for the work you do extracting different views from the literature, it's cool for a beginner like me to like get the gist of things. Motivated me to take another look at the work of Damon Brand. I had kind of dismissed it as the work of a trend-surfing Amazon-publishing work but it's the second time someone with knowledge recommends his work in a way. Maybe it's just the AI-ish illustrations and the quantity of books published that give the impression of slop.

I'm trying to design a practice that I would find pleasing and meaningful to get knowledge and conversation with the HGA or something like that and this whole thread is very interesting. Thanks to everyone participating. I'm glad I will not have to create a circle of salt around my house and close the door for several months like in the movie
Post automatically merged:

Bringing rich, distinct symbols that represent the universe into a unity of my understanding of truth from the variety of experience was important for me. From that the development of an English Qabalah contributed to the event. Increased receptivity. Gave the entity traction to communicate through the distinguishing characteristics, allowing me also to recognize and share that information back. Then things really escalated. That's where I can definitely say I passed the Veil and was in hyperphysical communication for 3 months.
Thank you for sharing, it's very interesting for me to read not only the "theory" but also reports from people who 'did the thing'. What systems/books/resources would you recommend for English Qabalah?
 
Last edited:

Kepler

Neophyte
Joined
May 9, 2025
Messages
21
Reaction score
12
Thank you for sharing, it's very interesting for me to read not only the "theory" but also reports from people who 'did the thing'. What systems/books/resources would you recommend for English Qabalah?
There wasn't much around when I started, I had Thelema and the books in Gems from the Equinox. Liber CCXXXI and Liber XXVII, were two significant directly related starting points. Earlier background work with psychic exercises from Seth material really helped with Visions, Liber O.

The Rose Cross of the Golden Dawn was a big help.

I recommend starting with attributing the Heavens of Assiah as understood from modern natural science according to apparent qualities.

From that create a framework for an English Qabalistic Tree and Rose Cross.
This was my Tree behind the spoiler, with some variation, between Nov 1994 - Feb 2025.
AWMAjxy.png
The attributions of the Rose seem obvious and I'm willing to post them, but I had previously offered those as a puzzle with a solution for anyone interested in solving it without help. While the English letter attributions could vary for experiments(mostly they were in order), the elemental, planetary, zodiac attributions from meditations about their natural relationships within this Qabalah were very strongly set with only slight variations possible. The hint I gave for the solution was the planets are by the zodiac signs they rule.

In February this year, after integrating the galactic and supergalactic equators with the celestial equator and ecliptic over the last few years of Wheel of the Year sidereal alignment, as inspiration from experience led to organize the Tree into

The Body of Nuit
vLTtpc4.png
rXdggLe.png

Replacing the Primum Mobile with Sgr A* is just so right for a gravity multidimensional spacetime theory. So much better than having Pluto there. The attributions providing a completely new set of symbols for the paths with the constellations/stars that are between the spheres. Which brings this back to English Qabalah and attributing letter to symbol. There's more paths with real celestial anchors than letters in this arrangement which opens possibilities about adopting other languages and discovering/establishing new languages.

I have to remake my Rose Cross again and was thinking of sharing the process. While I call the Rose Cross a Genesis Device, it was essential for aligning the Tree to Go to Warp(to add a bit of pop culture chaos magick to the post) and enter the hyperphysical. The Journal area of the forum looks like a good space for that if you're interested in following.
 
Top