Clinical Psychology Is Dead

[speculumphilosophi]

Which is why I was forced to dig deep into early German wartime research. This research (and also in the USSR) had a big emphasis on genetics. Psychological disorders were studied in depth, and classified, although diagnosis has always been complex.
Modern psychology fell into the trap of Neurodiversity, as if neurological deviations are somehow the same as racial or gender distinctions. This happened I found because psychologists ignored core German research, which addresses the distinctions between personality type and clinical pathology. In fact, the same misunderstanding existed then, as they do today, yet they were basically cleared up.
I haven't encountered a single acclaimed psychologist today whose essays have included early German psychology research, often mixed with genetics. This starts with E. Kretshmer who demonstrated that somatotype and racial heritage influence the types of psychological disorders we get, e.g. manic depressive episodes vs schizoid conditions. This was carefully researched along family lines.
Kretshmer drew up a list of personality types, including the psychopathic personality, although these were not clinical conditions. And that's how the modern Neurodiversity application got misled.
To put it very starkly, we have
(1) Personality type (geek, Peter Parker profile.
(2) Clinical pathologies.
Neurodiversity tends to idealise the former but the success in actual clinical diagnosis has fallen well behind the standards in the 1970s.

Post automatically merged: Friday at 11:32 PM

This from 1925:
"A more precise distinction of the schizoid class (i.e. clinically autistic people) is necessary to distinguish from (1), other pathological syndromes and (2), schizoid type of reaction, as a physiological phenomenon within the range of normality." G.E. Suhareva."

And again here:

"The fact that both of these conceptions are referred to by one term gives rise to major confusion"."

 

[Firetree]

Hmmmmm ... maybe , clinical psychology shies away from this due to it being directly entangled with the Nazi regime’s ideologies of "racial hygiene" (Rassenhygiene), eugenics, and the elimination of genetic defects?


( While Kretschmer originally formulated his somatotype theories in 1921 under the democratic Weimar Republic, his later life and work became heavily compromised by compliance with the Third Reich. )

Ever had yer head measured to see if you are a candidate for a gas oven ?

FFS !

 

[Robert Ramsay]

Yes. this does indeed look like Nazi wish-fulfilment nonsense. I've seen a couple of people on the forum recently spouting this kind of eugenics bollocks. And when you start describing autistic people as "schizoid", well that puts the tin lid on it for me.

 

[HoldAll]

The USSR leaned heavily on Pavlovian psychology and classical conditioning since the communists despised psychoanalysis and related methods as bourgeois. Freud's and other pioneers' being Jewish may have had something to do with it, which it definitely did for the nazis.

Mental pathologies do have a strong hereditary aspect. Forced sterilisation of women and girls with severe psychosocial conditions is still legal under certain conditions in many countries including many US states and 12 EU nations. It was also abused as an eugenics measure, see the Canadian scandal involving the forced sterilisation of thousands of indigenous people. However, the nazis took so-called 'racial purity' to another horrendous level with their

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, and psychiatrists like Kretschmer certainly paved the way for such atrocities.

As a bipolar person on lithium and other psychiatric drugs, I don't feel the need to pussyfoot around the issue. I self-designate as manic depressive and resent the term 'neurodivergent' as a cowardly euphemism for what I've been through in the previous decades - that's me personally and subjectively and doesn't relate to any fellow sufferers. I feel that such a 'polite' concept, as beneficial as it may be for public awareness and acceptance, would trivialise my own horrible experiences.

However, this is not about myself and my own issues. The counterculture of the 1960s and beyond liked to rage against the idea of conforming to societal norms (remember "One flew over the Cuckoo's Nest"?), the antipsychiatry movement was born, and all and any standards for sanity came into question. Now the pendulum seems to have swung into the same direction again, and suspicious and cynical as I am, I fear that the neurodiversity concept might be abused by society to turn a blind eye to the issue of mental illness yet again, as it always has. Mental illness. There, I said it.

I see the word 'neurodiversity' as an expression of wokeness. I have no problem with wokeness as long as it doesn't result in hypocrisy. It's one thing what psychologists write in their papers and what they think and do in actual practice. As my late doc once said: "Can you hold down a steady job? Can you maintain meaningful relationships? Can you take care of yourself? No to all three? Voilà, you've got a mental problem!", which is what it all boils down to - his students would have been in an uproar at such an oversimplification but nevertheless.

Psychologists don't mention genetics because one, it isn't their field, and two, because psychology is often considered a part of the humanities which don't like determinism. Medical doctors don't care, in their profession determinism works just fine. In my experience, you can run rings around a psychologist, especially in a manic phase, but you can hardly ever fool a psychiatrist (I live in a country with an excellent government-backed healthcare system). Judging from the papers out there, psychologists are quick to jump on the latest fads while psychiatrists are much more careful and, yes, more scientific about their trade.

It's of course both nature AND nurture. Some mental health practitioners tend to stress one or the other aspect for ideological reasons but always at the cost of their success rate. Savvy psychologists know which patients to refer to a psychiatrist as soon as they realise they require medication and want to keep a clean conscience, while sychiatrists would be well advised to send patients who'd like to talk about their issues in more detail to a psychologist.

 

[speculumphilosophi]

What actually happens in extremist regimes is the scientists tend to contradict the official ideology. Kretshmer was one such case. Not Jaensch, however.
German psychologists were well aware many geniuses were either schizoid (schizoaffin) or suffering schizophrenia. For example, Einstein's son suffered schizophrenia. Einstein's wife, moreover, was thought to be schizoid.
(Schizoaffin or schizoid personality was the original term for the modern Asperger Syndrome, derived by Lorna Wing from the same sources I use).
The same thing happened in the USSR with scientists. Many of them didn't believe in the strict interpretation of Marxism.
So, the idea German psychology research supported fascism is as incorrect as assuming the V2 rocket designers, behind the NASA lunar program, were also prone to goose stepping. Scientists are smart and sometimes their research gets hijacked for political reasons.
I acknowledge genetics research did attract bad intentions but fortunately most if it is hugely helpful to psychologists.
The reason I use the term schizoid disorder (schizoaffin, Russian schizoidniy) is because the elite psychologists used the same term. Research showed that what we now call Asperger Syndrome prevailed in families where schizophrenia was also present. Also, the symptoms of pre-psychotic schizophrenia (negative symptomatology) are almost identical to Asperger Syndrome. So, we used the term "schizoid psychopathology", meaning similar to (but not essentially) schizophrenia.
I suppose the term schizoid is disliked because it sounds "clinical" or even scary. The often used term psychopathy, wasn't the same in meaning as the modern definition. It meant psychological pathology and not psychosis. This is why some German helps here.

 

[Aeternus]

Which is why I was forced to dig deep into early German wartime research. This research (and also in the USSR) had a big emphasis on genetics. Psychological disorders were studied in depth, and classified, although diagnosis has always been complex.
Modern psychology fell into the trap of Neurodiversity, as if neurological deviations are somehow the same as racial or gender distinctions. This happened I found because psychologists ignored core German research, which addresses the distinctions between personality type and clinical pathology. In fact, the same misunderstanding existed then, as they do today, yet they were basically cleared up.
I haven't encountered a single acclaimed psychologist today whose essays have included early German psychology research, often mixed with genetics. This starts with E. Kretshmer who demonstrated that somatotype and racial heritage influence the types of psychological disorders we get, e.g. manic depressive episodes vs schizoid conditions. This was carefully researched along family lines.
Kretshmer drew up a list of personality types, including the psychopathic personality, although these were not clinical conditions. And that's how the modern Neurodiversity application got misled.
To put it very starkly, we have
(1) Personality type (geek, Peter Parker profile.
(2) Clinical pathologies.
Neurodiversity tends to idealise the former but the success in actual clinical diagnosis has fallen well behind the standards in the 1970s.

Post automatically merged: Friday at 11:32 PM

This from 1925:
"A more precise distinction of the schizoid class (i.e. clinically autistic people) is necessary to distinguish from (1), other pathological syndromes and (2), schizoid type of reaction, as a physiological phenomenon within the range of normality." G.E. Suhareva."

And again here:

"The fact that both of these conceptions are referred to by one term gives rise to major confusion"."

Don't come with the Nazi bullshit, to me and to others here. I am on the Autism Spectre, specifically Asperger's Syndrome with a bit of ADHD. One syndrome enhances my intellect on one side (or two sides actually: occultism and IT), the other one literally fucks up everything by making me overthink constantly, being disorganized... a lot of bad things.

Enough talking about me though... I think it is pretty reasonable to understand that all of this "research" stems from a political regime (National Socialist Germany), who commanded the extermination of people who were Autistic, had eye disorders, had Himmler literally tortured women in concentration camps and so on and so forth. I think what I mentioned, even if it is just a tiny bit, is enough to describe how horrible the Nazi regime, from which you posted "research" from, really is.

While I agree to a point that modern psychology tends to have its flaws, like... you know... you can't currently go on and talk about your interest in esotericism or anything like that, else you will be called schizophrenic (same shit would happen outside the psychologist office as well IMO), still, sometimes it can work its wonders for treatments in case of serious diseases, help against suicide and various cases.

Concluding note: Psychology is needed as well in the aspects of the individual. Even occult researchers that are the real-deal will always say that the meditations and spiritual practices should never serve as replacement for psychological help as that would be really suicidal.

 

[speculumphilosophi]

This i(below) ndicates German genetics research didn't actually get swamped by political ideology. From what I gather, Kretshmer demonstrated racial, psychological differences around genetics but certainly not any notion of superiority, or I.Q. claims
So, mesomorphic somatotypes are more prone to bipolar depression than ectomorphic types (who gravitate towards schizoid disorders). Not a steadfast rule but studies by Hoffman et al demonstrated a definite bias. This is why modern clinicians often note lack of muscular tone in some patients.

"Dr. Kretschmer, who attained a world wide reputation with his book, “Body Structure and Character,” repudiates the theory of racial superiority of the pure strain in an interview which appears in the German publication, “Die Woche,” which has reached this country.

There is no foundation for the allegation the more pure the race, the more genius, Dr. Kretschmer asserts."

Post automatically merged: Saturday at 9:50 PM

"who commanded the extermination of people who were Autistic, had eye disorders,"

On the contrary, scientists in Germany stepped well back from the idea autism is simply a defect.
The reality is when Lorna Wing introduced Asperger Syndrome in the 1980s, you will find Kretshmer on her reading list. Also Leo Kanner, and some Russian researchers. She used the same sources I used.
I am not sympathetic to fascism so you can relax. The consequences of WW2 were so shocking, I'm afraid there was a tendency to just assume all German psychology research was ideological.

Post automatically merged: Saturday at 10:23 PM

You might like this. Not long ago I translated texts from the Dutch psychiatrist Van Krevelin. He had actually studied Hans Asperger's patients. Note he uses the old term Autistic Psychopathy: Here, he describes his observations:

"While I know of Kanner's patients from literature (his descriptions are very clear), I have myself had the opportunity to observe and study Asperger's own patients firsthand. I'd like to briefly describe this scenario: The first difference is that Autistic Psychopathy, unlike Early Childhood Autism, manifests at age three (as Asperger noted) at the same time as the cortical functions of the brain become more pronounced. Those affected by Autistic Psychopathy experience difficulties around regulation of behavior. This is more or less compensated for within the family (Asperger children are often without siblings), but such problems are particularly evident in school, and the impairments can be extremely complex. A lack of discipline isn't the biggest problem. They lack childlike qualities. There exists something elderly, or graphic about their entire appearance. Their behavior is mature within the context of their childhood, and their range of interests is broader than normal for their age. They are original in their opinions and distinctive in their behavior. If they are talented, and this is not uncommon, their interests are unique; among them one can find natural philosophers, experimenters, and future inventors. Their personality is deep and lacks the necessary connection to reality.
In everyday life, they are impractical and clumsy. Even by school age, they often can't tie their shoelaces, or a tie. Their movements are awkward. Playing with peers doesn't appeal to them and they are forced to entertain themselves, reading a lot. If they play with toys, such play is more mechanical, lacking the usual childlike quality (2). They can have emotional outbursts, not only in class but also during play. Due to their unchildlike interests, refined self-expression and awkwardness, they often find difficulty being accepted in childrens' company. Often they become targets for ridicule.
Expression of affection is poor. They tend to adhere to their own opinions and approach, disregarding the opinions of elders. Asperger describes the impression of his patients being in a dream world, with weak facial expression, monotonous, "resonating" speech (as if in an empty room), disrespect for adults, dislike of affection, and subsequent sexual disharmony. On the other hand, Asperger noted a tendency towards home-sickness and a a striking attachment towards animals. These children distinguish certain people selectively. Therefore, it would be unfair to speak of an absence of their emotions. They are qualitatively different, and this is what Asperger called autism." (Van Krevelin)"

 

[HoldAll]

Honestly, who here cares what state clinical psychology is in? That would a debate for a psychologists' forum where different factions of professionals are quibbling about their chosen field and accuse each other of various -isms and whatnot. What's the relevance of this Van Krevelin to the occult? Why do you think these specialised disputes should matter to laypeople?

 

[Dyn Hysbys]

Dafuq is this Nazi bs? Wrong, outdated, crass stupidity.
This should be stamped out as firmly as any other vile 'opinion'.
Anything else is apologist bs.

 

[Robert Ramsay]

Honestly, who here cares what state clinical psychology is in? That would a debate for a psychologists' forum where different factions of professionals are quibbling about their chosen field and accuse each other of various -isms and whatnot. What's the relevance of this Van Krevelin to the occult? Why do you think these specialised disputes should matter to laypeople?

It's just arguing in bad faith that eugenics research is "legitimate concerns"

I say we measure the guy's head to see if he's worth responding to or not

 

[speculumphilosophi]

Maybe I misunderstood the heading because I assumed the term "psychology" here doesn't restrict to esoteric occult themes. If I have misunderstood the type of psychology indicated, I am happy to drop discussion of clinical psychology. So my question is does traditional psychology fit here, or is it not the right place.
I don't study eugenics at all. My genetics knowledge is limited to pretty basic fundamentals. Also, the fact I study German derived psychology isn't anything unusual because the modern diagnostic DSM comes from that background, as well as some European countries, espevially the USSR.
Most of the diagnostics that exist in English are translated from earlier German sources.
The comment that it's pointless to discuss clinical psychology really adds weight to the thread itself that modern psychology became a lame duck. I must say, though, it helped me a whole lot to understand how people tick.

Post automatically merged: Yesterday at 10:26 PM

Actually, the trend of dismissing various elite German psychology research has been alive and kicking. Dean Falk blew a lot of holes in that theory a few years ago, and there were calls to censor her paper on the topic

"the last 18 months have been full of media hoo-ha relating to Hans Asperger´s alleged links to Nazi-activities during the second world war. Edith Sheffer and Herwig Czech made claims that made a lot of prominent people believe that Asperger must have been an awful man who – eyes wide open – sent young children to their death in the notorious Am Spiegelgrund clinic.

Dean Falk, distinguished professor of neuroanthropology at Florida State University, has recently, systematically, shown that the posthumous allegations against Hans Asperger, are not well-founded. She has done this in a very thoughtful paper published in the Journal of Autism and Developmental Disorders in March 2019, and, in the September 2019 issue of the same journal in a detailed response to Herwig Czech,"






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3. Dean Falk versus Herwig Czech: Asperger was not a Nazi

Dean Falk versus Herwig Czech: Asperger was not a Nazi​

Christopher Gillberg's latest blog entry
[Posted on 26 August, 2019 by Christopher Gillberg]

As most readers of this blog site will already be aware, the last 18 months have been full of media hoo-ha relating to Hans Asperger´s alleged links to Nazi-activities during the second world war. Edith Sheffer and Herwig Czech made claims that made a lot of prominent people believe that Asperger must have been an awful man who – eyes wide open – sent young children to their death in the notorious Am Spiegelgrund clinic.
Dean Falk, distinguished professor of neuroanthropology at Florida State University, has recently, systematically, shown that the posthumous allegations against Hans Asperger, are not well-founded. She has done this in a very thoughtful paper published in the Journal of Autism and Developmental Disorders in March 2019, and, in the September 2019 issue of the same journal in a detailed response to Herwig Czech, whose vicious attack on Dean Falk, speaks for itself.
I urge all readers of our blogs to look her publications up and read them very carefully.

 

[Firetree]

Yes. this does indeed look like Nazi wish-fulfilment nonsense. I've seen a couple of people on the forum recently spouting this kind of eugenics bollocks. And when you start describing autistic people as "schizoid", well that puts the tin lid on it for me.

Did you know that certain extreme groups actually target 'neuro-divergent ' people and people with autism ?

Why Recruiters Target Neurodivergent People

• • Social Isolation: Extremist groups often prey on young people who feel like outsiders or face social rejection.
  • Hyper-Fixations: Recruiters may try to redirect an intense, focused interest on a specific topic—such as weapons, politics, or history—toward a radical ideology.
  • Desire for Rules: A preference for clear, black-and-white rules can make rigid extremist worldviews seem appealing. [
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Important Facts to Keep in Mind

• • Not a Direct Cause: Having autism or being neurodivergent does not mean a person is prone to violence or extremism.
  • Rare Occurrence: The vast majority of neurodivergent people never join or support extremist groups.
  • Exploitation, Not Inherent Risk: Experts stress that the danger comes from predatory grooming tactics by bad actors who exploit social vulnerabilities, rather than from neurodivergence itself. [
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  • Yes, this is AI but it carries valid references - there was actually a doco on it last night on Aussie tv .